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Thread: New GOP tax plan eliminates deductions for state and local taxes

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The movement going in the "right direction" is NOT the "right". It is a small group for Liberty.

    AGAIN- there is NO difference between the left & right- it is a ruse to take everyone's eye off of what's really going on.
    It is the "Right", ALL the good guys are Republicans, NONE are Demoncrats.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is the "Right", ALL the good guys are Republicans, NONE are Demoncrats.



    Keep thinking that.
    There is no spoon.

  4. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  5. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    AMEN.
    There is no spoon.

  6. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    How is allowing residents of NY, NJ and California to pay their own tax rates (the ones that they chose for themselves) a totalitarian act? It might actually wake some people up. Half will want lower taxes. Half will want secession. Win-win-win.

    The removal of the state and local deduction encourages lower state and local government taxes. It might also encourage principled State candidates to run on more radical plaforms (in low tax states) like abolishing property taxes entirely.

    Sounds good to me.

  7. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    How is allowing residents of NY, NJ and California to pay their own tax rates (the ones that they chose for themselves) a totalitarian act? It might actually wake some people up. Half will want lower taxes. Half will want secession. Win-win-win.

    The removal of the state and local deduction encourages lower state and local government taxes. It might also encourage principled State candidates to run on more radical plaforms (in low tax states) like abolishing property taxes entirely.

    Sounds good to me.
    Ugh. Please keep up. Spending is the real tax! Spending. You are debating various methods of collecting. Literally rearranging the deck chairs of the tax code. The collection methods are nothing but a shell game for political purposes. Most of the taxes aren't collected directly anyway. They're collected through a devaluation of currency, debt and misallocated resources.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Ugh. Please keep up. Spending is the real tax! Spending. You are debating various methods of collecting. Literally rearranging the deck chairs of the tax code. The collection methods are nothing but a shell game for political purposes. Most of the taxes aren't collected directly anyway. They're collected through a devaluation of currency, debt and misallocated resources.
    Someone will pay for all this spending. I say it's going to be those holding bonds, dollars and stocks denominated in dollars. If those in low tax states can keep more of their fiat dollars, from the IRS, and convert them into real money before this whole house of cards comes crashing down the better. These states should be rewarded for fiscal prudence. Big government states should not be able to pay less taxes because they choose to tax themselves more. That is their choice. They should see and feel those results good and hard.

    Besides, I believe your central point to be a fallacy. Alternative non-fiat forms of money i.e. gold and silver enable you to escape devaluation. Taxes do not equal spending if I can buy silver and protect my savings. The bills will come due but not everyone will be splitting the tab when this whole thing comes crashing down.

    This, coming from a guy from NJ.

  9. #98

  10. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    AMEN.

    Changing deductions is not totalitarian, I support lower spending and lower taxes but this plan is good as far as it goes.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Outta rep.

    Those other guys in this thread that don't get it would benefit immensely by watching this clip!

    It's amazing how Ron Paul always finds the right position. Maybe he has principles or something.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Outta rep.

    Those other guys in this thread that don't get it would benefit immensely by watching this clip!

    It's amazing how Ron Paul always finds the right position. Maybe he has principles or something.
    Look this isn't a cult. The reason I agree with the Bill of Rights, Natural Law and Dr. Paul is because the philosophy makes logical sense. I trust in the math. I use reason when forming my opinions.

    While I believe that Dr. Paul is right that spending is a more important (in terms of size of govt.) than taxation, I do not believe for a minute that they are the same. A sovereign state (or individual) always has a right to default on obligations.The Fed will never honestly default but either way I don't have to hold dollars.

    Now, will most people suffer because of the coming devaluation of the dollar? Yes, and this is what Dr. Paul is saying. It doesn't matter what the tax rate is, the spending rate will cause the Fed to monetize the debt.

    I disagree that the tax rate is meaningless though. If (and ifs are always iffy) a President and Congress was able to pass reform that actually lowered taxes, even if it didn't lower spending, it would be a step in the right direction. If the way we lower federal taxes is to require the citizens of high tax states to suffer the consequences of their own states legislatures and actually pay their taxes without federal help then so be it. It's an incremental step in the direction of liberty. I'll take it.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  13. #102

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    Isn't this pretty standard? Pretty Cruz and Paul and Steve Forbes' flat tax and consumption tax proposals were the exact same as far as eliminating these deductions as Trump's. The FAIR Tax obviously wouldn't allow for property tax deductions. This doesn't seem that controversial to me.

    The right thing to do would be to eliminate all perverse deductions like the mortgage interest and child care deductions and have a low flat rate or a very slightly tiered rate.

  14. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Look this isn't a cult.
    Agreed it's not a cult. It's just that some of us share and fully understand the same principles that Dr. Paul has been trying to explain. Others have a sense that he's right, but don't know why, or they pick and choose certain part of those principles when it suits their beliefs.

    I really don't care about how they re-arrange the tax code, because it doesn't matter if they're going to keep spending. I have no desire to use the government taxation method to "hurt the bad guys" or help the "good" guys. That's not consistent with my principles of liberty.

    And yeah, they could cut income taxes to zero for everybody and the same wealth would be withdrawn from the economy - because it's not the method of collecting taxes that matters - it's the spending. I like to see taxes go lower and I like to see as many "deductions" for as many people as possible. But all of that is beside the point. Because the government gets their money whether they tax you, borrow from your future labor, print the money or inflate the prices. As Dr. Paul has said, cutting taxes while increasing spending is immoral, since you're really just taxing the next generation and the poor get hit the hardest.

    All this re-arranging of the tax code deck chairs to make things "better for some and worse for others" is a complete distraction from liberty. It's the principle.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I really don't care about how they re-arrange the tax code
    That is bold statement. You don't care how you are robbed? Even if a different method of robbery is easier to circumvent? I do. Lower taxes are always preferable to higher taxes, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    because it doesn't matter if they're going to keep spending.
    So if it doesn't matter why don't they just raise income taxes to 60%? Since it doesn't matter I'm sure it would have no effect on your liberty

    I'm sorry but of course tax rates matter (even when the govt has a printing press). The truth is, the Feds are out of control and will continue spending no matter what. If they raise taxes the taxpayers will pay the piper now as the tax eaters continue to feed (until the productive go Galt). If they lower taxes holders of bonds, dollars, US stocks, and Govt IOU's (SS, Medicare, Medicaid) will pay for the spending later. Either way the country is screwed. Although the latter allows economically literate individuals to withdraw their savings from the system before it implodes. I'd take lower taxes any day.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I have no desire to use the government taxation method to "hurt the bad guys" or help the "good" guys. That's not consistent with my principles of liberty.
    How am I hurting the bad guys? I want to allow those that want high taxes (bad guys) to pay for those taxes. Shouldn't people (including bad guys) be able to harm themselves in a free society?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    And yeah, they could cut income taxes to zero for everybody and the same wealth would be withdrawn from the economy - because it's not the method of collecting taxes that matters - it's the spending.
    No, the extraction would be different. Gold, silver, land and other hard assets would go to the moon. The extracted wealth would come from those clinging to fiat idols (bonds, dollars, stocks denominated in dollars, and government IOUs). Like all that develop degenerate behavior, these indivduals must suffer the consequences of their own actions. That is the price of liberty.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  16. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.
    Yes, you made a good and creative point and I agreed with it. Long term, it could exacerbate that particular problem.

    There's more than that one element to the tax reform and simplification proposal, though, and overall I think any of you would admit: it's quite good.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  17. #106

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    Most of the tax revenue collected by gov is collected by the top earners because they have more money to tax. Therefore spending is much more of a tax on the people who can't get a fair shake. Any shifting of the tax burden is just going to benefit the people who pay a lot of tax, not people who only pay a little. In fact it could exacerbate the inflation that we already have if it makes us have to print more money to pay for the government spending thats out of control.

  18. #107

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    Rand doesn't sound thrilled about this plan. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-GOP-tax-plan
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  19. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Rand doesn't sound thrilled about this plan. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-GOP-tax-plan
    It is not good enough, but it may be better than what we have, I doubt that it will pass, anything better absolutely won't.

    We need to get rid of more RINOs and more Demoncrats in 2018, it would be nice if we could get someone better than Dump in 2020 too.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is not good enough, but it may be better than what we have, I doubt that it will pass, anything better absolutely won't.

    We need to get rid of more RINOs and more Demoncrats in 2018, it would be nice if we could get someone better than Dump in 2020 too.
    Our government is sponsoring terror groups that shoot up our cities, this is bigger then 2020, we are at war with our own government.

  21. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Our government is sponsoring terror groups that shoot up our cities, this is bigger then 2020, we are at war with our own government.
    There is another thread for that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There is another thread for that.
    what the thread about the government wanting to take more of our money isn't big enough to talk about them spending that money sponsoring terror groups that attack our cities?

  23. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    what the thread about the government wanting to take more of our money isn't big enough to talk about them spending that money sponsoring terror groups that attack our cities?
    This thread is about the tax system, if you want to talk about terrorism/"war on the people" put it in the shooting thread or make your own.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This thread is about the tax system, if you want to talk about terrorism/"war on the people" put it in the shooting thread or make your own.
    Gee whizz swordsmyth how many tax dollars do you think it cost to maintain and oppose ISIS?

  25. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    or cut spending
    Or have a national lottery. Or a national "go fund me" page? I'm serious about both proposals. Why not? Why not let those who want to pay for a new B-3 stealth bomber just donate for it? Same for those who want more money for the arts or healthcare or whatever.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Gee whizz swordsmyth how many tax dollars do you think it cost to maintain and oppose ISIS?
    Even a penny is too much, ISIS is evil, there are threads for that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Even a penny is too much, ISIS is evil, there are threads for that.
    Okay so this is a fake tax cut, just like our fake war on ISIS because we sponsor ISIS with our taxes.

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