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Thread: New GOP tax plan eliminates deductions for state and local taxes

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    ...Hurting the bad guys is helpful to our project.
    Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.

    The answer to liberty isn't hurting those opposed to us. That's completely backwards. Once you've ceded the idea that government can give benefits to some by imposing their will on others, why be surprised or outraged when it happens to you? You don't really care about liberty - you just want a government that works for your benefit - EXACTLY like those you think are "bad guys".
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.
    That is already happening, if this perfectly fair and good idea drives them to secede instead then we win in a manner we have only been able to dream of before the CALExit movement.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. If this really happened, you'd see an exodus from the blue states. And guess where those "bad guys" will go? You got it - "Red" states.

    The answer to liberty isn't hurting those opposed to us. That's completely backwards.
    The answer to winning a competition isn't inflicting damage upon those opposed to you? That's completely backwards?

    Have you ever been in a competition before? Even something girly like soccer? The objective of the game is to win. I mean, I know everyone gets a trophy nowadays, but that can't completely conceal the true nature of the game from you. Does it? I know it's super-fun to post on political forums about how holy and perfect your ideas are, and how stomped upon and totally demolished you are being by the other team, but..... wouldn't it be more productive to work on actually winning?

    Once you've ceded the idea that government can give benefits to some by imposing their will on others, why be surprised or outraged when it happens to you?

    You don't really care about liberty - you just want a government that works for your benefit - EXACTLY like those you think are "bad guys".
    There are long-term goals and there are short-term goals. Let's not confuse and conflate the two. Now it's not your fault. My thoughts are complex. You may never understand them. Certainly you will not if you have no interest in doing so. As you very well may not! No worries. But to just explain my self at least a little, very minimally:

    I do really care about liberty. I have a strong love of and moral commitment to liberty.

    I want The State to not tax anyone.

    What I want, especially when it is so far off in La-La Land as the above statement, has no impact nor bearing upon what The State does.

    So sit back, enjoy the ride, man, and realize that if the day ever comes when the Total Loser Outsider Party starts actually putting up a whimper of an opposition to the Completely-In-Control-of-Everything-Important Leftist Party, that would be a very, very good thing for liberty. Can't agree with that? Don't worry, Cap'n: it probably won't happen any time soon.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else.
    As Jean Baptiste Colbert put it:
    "The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to procure the largest quantity of feathers with the least possible amount of hissing."
    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Colbert

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    There are long-term goals and there are short-term goals. Let's not confuse and conflate the two. Now it's not your fault. My thoughts are complex. You may never understand them.
    Anyone want to introduce this guy to Ron Paul?

    Your ends will never justify your means. Your thoughts aren't complex at all. You make the same mistakes all subjects make. "we just need a benevolent king to use his power for us! Let's give him moar power - just until we win, then we'll get it back! Yeah, that's how it works!!!"
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Anyone want to introduce this guy to Ron Paul?

    Your ends will never justify your means. Your thoughts aren't complex at all. You make the same mistakes all subjects make. "we just need a benevolent king to use his power for us! Let's give him moar power - just until we win, then we'll get it back! Yeah, that's how it works!!!"
    When we win and bring the country closer to your ideals than it ever could have been before will you thank us?

    I doubt it, but I don't care, success is it's own reward.
    CALExit is the best thing about Dump, even better than Gorsuch.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    The answer to winning a competition isn't inflicting damage upon those opposed to you? That's completely backwards?
    But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    But as I pointed out, this tax plan is completely backwards and works against our goals. It will simply further suck the taxes/money from the states to the federal government, growing the fed an shrinking the smaller govt. I would prefer a plan that eliminates the personal federal income taxes, and forces the states to collect all the taxes then paying them to the fed.
    After CALExit we can go for that, you will never see that in your lifetime without CALExit.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When we win and bring the country closer to your ideals than it ever could have been before will you thank us?
    The better question is whether or not you'll take responsibility for giving the government MOAR power??? And I already know the answer.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    The better question is whether or not you'll take responsibility for giving the government MOAR power??? And I already know the answer.
    This does not give them more power, they already have the power to tax incomes and allow/disallow whatever deductions they want.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This does not give them more power, they already have the power to tax incomes and allow/disallow whatever deductions they want.
    Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that. So now, you are part of the problem. So don't be surprised when the tables are turned on you by the party that doesn't like you.

    Seriously, I'm not sure how this is so hard to grasp. The ends never justify the means. You either stand against the power of the State or for it. You guys just LOOOVE a powerful state if it's being used against your enemies. So do your enemies. You're no better than they are for liberty!

    It is only the liberty folks who understand the enemy IS that State.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that. So now, you are part of the problem. So don't be surprised when the tables are turned on you by the party that doesn't like you.

    Seriously, I'm not sure how this is so hard to grasp. The ends never justify the means. You either stand against the power of the State or for it. You guys just LOOOVE a powerful state if it's being used against your enemies. So do your enemies. You're no better than they are for liberty!

    It is only the liberty folks who understand the enemy IS that State.
    This changes nothing about their power, the left has used targeted taxation since the beginning of the income tax, and this makes the tax more even, as things are libs in high tax states get a tax break that is bigger than people in low tax states.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This changes nothing about their power, the left has used targeted taxation since the beginning of the income tax, and this makes the tax more even, as things are libs in high tax states get a tax break that is bigger than people in low tax states.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6530961
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #74

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    I agree with Dr. Ron, but this may be the best we can get from Dump, we probably won't get this from congress.

    We need this and reduced spending and reduced revenue, when CALExit happens maybe we can do that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Whether you realize it or not, you are acknowledging their power to use their taxes to selectively affect certain people more than others. Even conservatives used to be opposed to that.
    Both parties have used the tax code to push their particular agendas since day one. Want to protect your business from foreign competition? Get Congress to raise tariffs. Want to transfer money to the poor? Give them refundable child credits. Want to lower taxes for businesses? Increase the amount they can expense for buying equipment instead of requiring them to depreciate the cost over time. Want to encourage home ownership? Allow a deduction for home mortgage interest (but not too much -- limit the amount "the rich" can deduct). Want to require "the rich" to pay tax even though the law doesn't require them to? Enact the Alternative Minimum Tax.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I agree with Dr. Ron, but this may be the best we can get from Dump, we probably won't get this from congress.

    We need this and reduced spending and reduced revenue, when CALExit happens maybe we can do that.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are the one giving lectures to the other passengers about how corrupt the Star shipping line is, we are trying to man the pumps and direct damage control teams.
    Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.
    There is no spoon.

  20. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.
    The left is entirely lost, all green shoots of liberty are on the right, show me a leftist that is better than his opponent on the right and I will support him. (I won't be holding my breath waiting)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.
    Truth, it's a racket like everything else. In regards to the rest of Swordsmyth post, I completely agree that Trump's Tax Plan is a step in the right direction. I live in NJ. The suburban yuppy "NYC Commuting Class" (statist social-engineers who believe that they make the big bucks because they are soooo much more talented than the rest of fly-over America ) deserves a swift kick in the ass. Property taxes in my home town average $12,000 per year. The only way to "make it" is to have an income large enough to deduct the taxes in their entirety. Working class people get hosed (and the smart ones leave). All the while, the working class is being systematically replaced by an underclass of foreigners too desperate for work and too uneducated to protect their Natural Rights from this pretenscious, parasitic, unskilled, Fiat Banking "Nobility".

    I say let it burn.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  22. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The left is entirely lost, all green shoots of liberty are on the right, show me a leftist that is better than his opponent on the right and I will support him. (I won't be holding my breath waiting)
    You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

    Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

    There isn't one.
    There is no spoon.

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

    Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

    There isn't one.
    The only saving grace for the right has been at the state level, the federal level is a joke of course. There are some states that are freer than others and none of them that I can think of have total Democrat control. Don't get me wrong I don't trust 99 out of 100 Republican legislators as far as I can throw them. But every now and then a significant pro freedom piece of legislation makes a red state a far more desirable place to live. parental, gun, property rights etc. It's true some blue states have better drug laws than red ones, but the same is true for some purple ones. And the population everywhere is moving towards legalization.

    in 10 years I can see the red states legalizing marijuana but I can't see California rolling back their gun laws. I try not to be blinded by partisanship just calling it how I see it.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  24. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Then get rid of your right/left paradigm- it's a ruse.
    No kidding. Right/left is really just the wealthy and powerful doing their best to gain more wealth and power.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  25. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    You're not going to find one because all the "leftists" say the right buzz words for their supporters and the "right" does the same.

    Show me any significant change in policy whenever the gov has a right or left majority.

    There isn't one.
    When you find a Leftist Dr. Ron Paul/Dr. Rand Paul/Massie/Amash/Walter Jones/Labrador/etc. we can talk, until then you are just making a fool of yourself, ALL the green shoots of liberty are on the RIGHT!
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When you find a Leftist Dr. Ron Paul/Dr. Rand Paul/Massie/Amash/Walter Jones/Labrador/etc. we can talk, until then you are just making a fool of yourself, ALL the green shoots of liberty are on the RIGHT!
    So, tell me- what major policy changes for Liberty have happened under a Repub majority?

    Waiting...................
    There is no spoon.

  27. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So, tell me- what major policy changes for Liberty have happened under a Repub majority?

    Waiting...................
    Our revolution is still in it's cradle, the left is barren.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #87

  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Our revolution is still in it's cradle, the left is barren.
    Ah..... so, no answer because there has been no distinguishable difference, amirite?
    There is no spoon.

  30. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Ah..... so, no answer because there has been no distinguishable difference, amirite?
    We have a movement going the right direction, the left was not only worse to begin with but it is rapidly moving the wrong direction.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We have a movement going the right direction, the left was not only worse to begin with but it is rapidly moving the wrong direction.
    The movement going in the "right direction" is NOT the "right". It is a small group for Liberty.

    AGAIN- there is NO difference between the left & right- it is a ruse to take everyone's eye off of what's really going on.
    There is no spoon.

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