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Thread: New GOP tax plan eliminates deductions for state and local taxes

  1. #31

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    This sounds good to me. Getting rid of the deductions might motivate my state legislature (Michigan) to actually dump the income tax. Should get rid of the mortgage deduction too.
    Last edited by EBounding; 09-28-2017 at 05:31 AM.
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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    This sounds good to me. Getting rid of the deductions might motivate my state legislature (Michigan) to actually dump the income tax. Should get rid of the mortgage deduction too.
    But isn't this proposal a bad thing if you like things being run at the state level? This would seem to encourage states to cut their taxes and instead rely on federal money/services.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    But isn't this proposal a bad thing if you like things being run at the state level? This would seem to encourage states to cut their taxes and instead rely on federal money/services.
    That's a good point. It probably would encourage US reps to just expand programs and bring more pork back home. I guess my hope is those fiscal principals at the state level will eventually spread to the federal level?
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  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    That's a good point. It probably would encourage US reps to just expand programs and bring more pork back home. I guess my hope is those fiscal principals at the state level will eventually spread to the federal level?
    That's a nice hope you got there.
    But lets be real, they wont cut services, they'll just demand it come out of the federal level. This is the wrong solution, backwards even.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    This is how you win.
    Depends who you is. I think most of us would win more if they cut spending.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    As Rand Paul notes, revenue neutral tax cuts are not really tax cuts- they are tax "shifts". To be revenue neutral, you have to raise taxes on somebody to pay for lowering the taxes on somebody else. If they are reducing corporate taxes and want to be revenue neutral, individual taxes must be raised. They also claim that cuts will be offset by economic growth- and they assume that the economy will grow at the rate of six percent a year- a figure nearly all economists say is impossible. 1984 is the only time in at least 50 years we have seen that occur.

    And that was the recovery from 1982 which was fairly brutal but thankfully short lived.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's right.

    ...not something we 2nd amendment supporters want to hear, but right.

    The idea that the 'oi polloi should have the same weaponry as the army is quite insane.

    ...a relic of well intended but irrational Enlightenment thinking about the nature of the people (can't work against their own interests, etc).

    The people should be armed so as to defend themselves from criminals, not so as to overthrow the government,

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare used the same tactics the Republicans are trying to use now- reconciliation- a technical "modification" of an existing bill.
    Are you saying that they're trying to put a tax plan through via reconciliation, or are you saying that they're trying to use reconciliation to shove through a tax bill?

    But it still looks to me that either way, I am right. Your team paved this damned road. Screw them for daring to whine about it now.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Depends who you is.
    We is the right. Libertarianism, Constitutionalism, and any philosophies or inclinations valuing property, liberty, and the rule of law are firmly and solidly and only part of the right. We are right-wing. I know we love to imagine we transcend all of that, floating up in the clouds, superior to everyone, neither left nor right, but rather perfect. Sorry, that's bologna. The love of liberty is a right-wing value. It took me a long time to realize this truth, due to Nolan Chart propaganda, but it's true. I'd be happy to discuss further. It's imperative that we accept this truth and act accordingly.

    I think most of us would win more if they cut spending.
    Obviously. We would win even more if they repealed the income tax. We would win even morely more if the FedGov shrunk down to a $10 billion dollar per year budget. We would win bigly if the NSA and the CIA and the FBI and all the alphabet soup were all given immediate pink slips (and probably assassinated simultaneously; you'd probably have to, unfortunately, just kill them all, at min. the leaders, to prevent them simply saying "umm, right, no thank you" and taking over the gov). We would win really bigly if the FedGov would start abiding by its charter, its Law: the Constitution.

    So you can see, I too am all for listing wholly imaginary ways in which we could imaginarily win. Let's list some more! Got any favorites, William?
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 09-28-2017 at 08:54 AM.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ... As long as you tread on them ​more.
    And this is what happens when a slightly cleverer man tries to be persuasive. It works much better. Unfortunately for you, Wonka, you have no pathos or ethos here; you've already burned all those bridges. All or most here, probably all, already have a pre-conceived feeling, formed over the course of years, that you do not want the same things they do. You do not share their values, indeed your goals are inimical to theirs. This feeling is deeply ingrained at this point. It cannot be changed. Sorry.

    The only way you could be effectively persuasive at this point is to advocate for the opposite of what you actually want on a few (just a few -- it can't be obvious) occasional carefully-picked issues that come up. Then RPFers would say, "Wait, TheCount likes that? It must be bad." But this would get confusing, and probably be unsatisfying to you.

    Anyway, thanks for the post. It was a good use of that meme. Been saving it? Kudos. Great connection. It gets booooring having such one-sided discussions, so it's nice to have some even moderately intelligent opposition. Spices things up. Of course, what I want is to tread on YOU. And your kind. Quite a bit different than asking you to tread on me, which is what you're already doing, and have been doing your entire sorry lives.

    The left must die. Stomp. Stomp. Stomp.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They want higher taxes, they can have them.

    And when they Secede and lose their Reps, Senators and Electors we can finally lower taxes on everyone else along with the spending to balance it.
    Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Are you saying that they're trying to put a tax plan through via reconciliation, or are you saying that they're trying to use reconciliation to shove through a tax bill?

    But it still looks to me that either way, I am right. Your team paved this damned road. Screw them for daring to whine about it now.
    Actually this is a "trial balloon"- like healthcare, the deadline for getting a tax bill though under reconciliation expires this week. Since tax reform isn't going to get a vote this week, it will have to wait until the get a new budget passed. This is to try to get them to pass an actual spending bill so the can go after taxes later. Once that bill is passed and signed, then the reconciliation time will start over again. The catch is that via reconciliation, a modification cannot add to the debt authorized in the original spending bill. The current one would allow $1.5 trillion in new debt- the proposed tax cuts if all enacted would be over $2.5 trillion. They did healthcare first because they were counting on that reducing the deficit by about $400 billion over the next decade which would have allowed them to pass a bigger tax cut plan.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.
    Are you kidding? Most Americans have no idea what *programs* they pay for. Congress could probably eliminate 1000 progams and nobody would feel any difference.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  14. #43

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    All you need to know:







    Monkey with the tax code all they want - SPENDING IS THE REAL TAX!!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Actually this is a "trial balloon"- like healthcare, the deadline for getting a tax bill though under reconciliation expires this week. Since tax reform isn't going to get a vote this week, it will have to wait until the get a new budget passed. This is to try to get them to pass an actual spending bill so the can go after taxes later. Once that bill is passed and signed, then the reconciliation time will start over again. The catch is that via reconciliation, a modification cannot add to the debt authorized in the original spending bill. The current one would allow $1.5 trillion in new debt- the proposed tax cuts if all enacted would be over $2.5 trillion. They did healthcare first because they were counting on that reducing the deficit by about $400 billion over the next decade which would have allowed them to pass a bigger tax cut plan.
    Moving goalposts again. Of course this is a trial balloon. It's a 9 page .pdf, basically an outline of what he wants to see happen.

    One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that it would disallow most all deductions. Medical costs being on the table. I'd rather see the mortgage interest deduction axed and allow medical expenses to be deducted.

    Kelly Erb has a good synopsis here:https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyph.../#7f9a0d0d77c4
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I'd rather see the mortgage interest deduction axed...
    LOL

    What, bankers no longer own the politicians? When did they stop making their lease paym--er, I mean campaign contributions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    'An SEP is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot.'
    This government is Not Somebody Else's Problem

  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    LOL

    What, bankers no longer own the politicians? When did they stop making their lease paym--er, I mean campaign contributions?
    IIRC the mortgage deduction stays. So the bankers are still ok. I'm sure they appreciate your concern.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  18. #47

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    On one hand, deductions do distort taxation and make it more complicated. On the other hand, they do offer you a way to reduce the taxes you have to pay. It is interesting to see anti-taxation people opposed to ways to reduce their tax burden.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Are you kidding? Most Americans have no idea what *programs* they pay for. Congress could probably eliminate 1000 progams and nobody would feel any difference.
    Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits. Pennies in relative savings. If you are serious about spending, you have to attack where the big bucks are- Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid (even Ron Paul was hesitant to touch those- saying he would "honor the commitment" to those who had qualified for any benefits- his cuts would be decades in the future- "allow young people the ability to "opt out" of the system") and Defense. Cut defense and lose Republican votes. Cut Social Security or Medicare/ Medicaid and lose liberal votes. Leave those out and you have about $500 billion you can cut out of a $4 trillion budget. About 12% if you cut all of it to zero.

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-28-2017 at 12:40 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits. Pennies in relative savings. If you are serious about spending, you have to attack where the big bucks are- Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid (even Ron Paul was hesitant to touch those- saying he would "honor the commitment" to those who had qualified for any benefits- his cuts would be decades in the future- "allow young people the ability to "opt out" of the system") and Defense. Cut defense and lose Republican votes. Cut Social Security or Medicare/ Medicaid and lose liberal votes. Leave those out and you have about $500 billion you can cut out of a $4 trillion budget. About 12% if you cut all of it to zero.
    It's more like, cut Social Security or Medicare, lose both party votes.
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  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    It's more like, cut Social Security or Medicare, lose both party votes.
    Which is why any significant budget cuts will never happen.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Those thousands are tiny programs and would have little impact on the debt/ deficits.

    I disagree. Small amounts of anything add up to big amounts. Either way, there is actually a lot of bad spending in those two largest categories of health-Medicare and SS-unemployment-labor.

    Everybody needs to take a cut. And using the word "cut" is actually ironic because a cut is actually a gain in your pocket.
    Last edited by NorthCarolinaLiberty; 09-28-2017 at 01:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I do think that ID should be required for certain things like carrying a concealed weapon...




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    All you need to know:







    Monkey with the tax code all they want - SPENDING IS THE REAL TAX!!
    Wow! Someone on Ron Paul Forums actually using Ron Paul quotes. Been awhile since I've seen it done. + rep!
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Congress doesn't really want to cut spending. Not Democrats, not Republicans. They say they want to- but they don't actually do it. Programs buy them votes which keep them in office. Cutting programs could cause them to lose their own jobs. Dems and Reps just like to spend the money on different things.
    Without the Demoncrats to blame they will swiftly have to cut spending or lose their seats to real liberty candidates.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #54

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  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post


    wouldn't the proper solution be to eliminate the federal income tax? and make it so that the STATES themselves pay that tax to the fed instead? give the state govts a reason to refuse federal govt "services"

  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    We is the right. Libertarianism, Constitutionalism, and any philosophies or inclinations valuing property, liberty, and the rule of law are firmly and solidly and only part of the right. We are right-wing. I know we love to imagine we transcend all of that, floating up in the clouds, superior to everyone, neither left nor right, but rather perfect. Sorry, that's bologna. The love of liberty is a right-wing value. It took me a long time to realize this truth, due to Nolan Chart propaganda, but it's true. I'd be happy to discuss further. It's imperative that we accept this truth and act accordingly.



    Obviously. We would win even more if they repealed the income tax. We would win even morely more if the FedGov shrunk down to a $10 billion dollar per year budget. We would win bigly if the NSA and the CIA and the FBI and all the alphabet soup were all given immediate pink slips (and probably assassinated simultaneously; you'd probably have to, unfortunately, just kill them all, at min. the leaders, to prevent them simply saying "umm, right, no thank you" and taking over the gov). We would win really bigly if the FedGov would start abiding by its charter, its Law: the Constitution.

    So you can see, I too am all for listing wholly imaginary ways in which we could imaginarily win. Let's list some more! Got any favorites, William?
    I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty. I agreed with Rand when he said Graham/Cassidy was petty for that reason. If the GOP was serious about cutting both spending and taxes that would be a win. I just don't see any reason I should cheer more of the can kicking that's been going on for a century.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty.
    I guess I don't look at it as taxing blue states more, but taxing everyone equally. Why should someone making $100K in New Hampshire pay more fed income tax than someone making $100K in New York?

    This tax plan has hardly any details though; I doubt it's going to go anywhere or look anything like they're proposing right now.
    Last edited by EBounding; 09-29-2017 at 07:09 AM.
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  29. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    I guess I don't look at it as taxing blue states more, but taxing everyone equally. Why should someone making $100K in New Hampshire pay more fed income tax than someone making $100K in New York?
    They shouldn't. Is that all this is? If so I misunderstood what I read.

    This tax plan has hardly any details though; I doubt it's going to go anywhere or look anything like they're proposing right now.
    If it's fairer and lower than what we have then I suppose it's an improvement. We shall see.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  30. #59

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    It will also flush out those states/cities that are allowed sanctuary for illegal aliens that cause all our taxes to go up.

    New York Could Lose Billions as Trump Attacks Sanctuary Cities
    https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...nding-how-much
    "Logic is an enemy and truth is a menace." ~ Rod Serling
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  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I just don't see how taxing blue states more is a win for liberty.
    It is a win for the reason I mentioned: it takes resources away from blue states. This is really very simple:

    1. Increasing the level of taxation on someone decreases the amount of resources he has.
    2. Blue states are full of blue people. These are anti-civilization people. They are bad guys. Not *the* bad guys, but by being opposed to everything of which we are in favor, they are distinctly unhelpful to our project.
    3. Hurting the bad guys is helpful to our project. If Planned Parenthood has less money, if we can take away from La Raza and SPLC and PETA and the Sierra Club and the Brady Campaign and the Violence Policy Center and all the other thousands of very well-organized, well-funded third-worldist outfits some of their billions and billions of dollars, every dollar they lose is a win for us and our project to save civilization.

    If the GOP was serious about cutting both spending and taxes that would be a win.
    Great! Thank you for the imaginary win! I feel more like a winner just reading that. I do, actually. Just as you do, writing it. It's great for the dopamine. It bears no relationship with reality.

    We can all be winners in La-La Land!

    I just don't see any reason I should cheer more of the can kicking that's been going on for a century.
    Well, this tax-reform proposal is not "can kicking" nor "more of the same can-kicking." It greatly simplifies and sane-ifies the tax system, making compliance much easier. Anything that makes our outlandishly dysfunctional system even a little bit sane is a huge step in the right direction, and this makes it a lot sane, so I guess that means it's hugely huge.

    What's going to happen here is this: it's not going to pass. Nothing is going to pass. Trump keeps putting forward these centrist proposals, and presumably is going to keep doing so, and they are going to keep getting bogged down and shot down in Congress. He's letting Congress crash and burn, you see. He's letting them fail. Very visibly. They're hanging themselves right now. They've never been up against a force like this. They don't know how to deal with it (because they don't know how to deal with anything -- they're complete incompetents, buffoonish figureheads who have not been involved in the running of government for about 30 years: that's done by the communist (literally in many cases!) bureaucrats). They thought business as usual would be fine; that is, that prattling and blustering and accomplishing nothing would be fine. Instead, the entire propositional base the GOP is built on right now -- lowering taxes and reducing government in health care -- is being exposed as a fraud, by President Trump. 2018 is going to come and Congress will have done nothing and have shown themselves to be total losers, obstructing Trump's reasonable, centrist agenda. The Dems will lose even more seats, some more hard-right and nationalist men on board with Trump's general agenda will be swept in on the GOP side, and more and more the GOP will see that Trumpism is the only way forward. That is my prediction.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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