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Well, economic security and economic prosperity are two, quite different, applications. They are more than mere words. Much like Life is more than merely existing. And much like the pursuit of happiness is much more than an ideal. It's an ever-changing aspiration. It's a constantly expanding vision of self-fulfillment. That vision comes from self-realization and from self-development, morally and intellectually. And in every regard.
When I say economic security, I'm talking about the fact that any society will ultimately turn into a State in some form. In any society there will be a hierarchy. This means rules. This means coercion. And this means that someone has to enforce it.
Then again, what if someone cant work anymore? What if someone is disabled? Who is going to check your shipping containers from imports outside of your society in order to make sure your material economy isn't blown up?
And I still never got arounf d to the free rider problem. What happens if you own the dam and some people get the overflow? Now all of a sudden he sees that he doesn't have to pay like the other guy. What if someone consumes more than he should? What decides what is fair and what isnt? Another thing is that human nature dictates that if a man can get away with paying as little as possible, or nothing at all, then, by gosh he'll try.
Those are just remedial situations and one could go much deeper. I just don't really feel like it, O. I'm serious, now. I'm just really tired of this thread.
As it is, every State and even the federal government has an economic security department. Homeland security has one where they specifically acknowledge that economic prosperity and economic prosperity are seen different in terms of physical defense.
Once a State or hierachy is established....and it will be in any society, coercion exists by default. One little rule enforced by a hierarchy is all it takes to establish a State.
Yeah, I agree.Free trade is not servitude.
Yeah, I agree.Freely exchanging your labor for goods and property and vice versa is not servitude.
What capitalist exchanges are accomplished by force?
I use the word coercion. What happens if I refuse to pay you for digging my basement? What fear do I have in a capitalist society of not paying you aside from getting my ass kicked nice and good? Are you gonna call the po po.
One need only look at our situation now. We haven't had true capitalism in a very long time. We have corporatism and mercantilism disguised as capitalism. This is because of the state merging with special interests.
It won't be any different in any other society because any society will ultimately enlist a hierarchy which, itself, exists as a coercive entity. A State.
And then you start all over again. Private courts, private police, private armies and on down the list. You end up with the same thing you didn't like in the first place. The difference is that there is no means, no chains, to bind them down from their mischief.
Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 06:52 PM.
Leadership=/= governance. There's leadership structure in businesses and churches(the Russian patriarchs tend to be particularly strong leaders, btw), but you wouldn't call them "governments" or "states". You're going to have to bring moar solid evidence to warrant your claims, comrade. ~hugs~
How do either of those entities protect the rights of The One?
You can't win, HB. It's a losing game, brother.
Now leave me alone dammit.
All of yuns.
If you want to do anarchy, then, go do it. lol. If it worked so well, why ya around here bugging us?
Is it maybe because...oh..I dunno...you need us? ...But for waht?
Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 05:51 PM.
Not necessarily. There are not just numerous militias in the USA, but numerous large PMCs that are apparently large enough that they have been doing the heavy lifting in Iraq for a decade now. Let us both not make the mistake of assuming that just because something has always been done a certain way that it must always happen or can only happen that way.
1. Africa is home to the oldest civilizations in history. And if you think that someone would rather be a slave than free, even in supposed "uncivilized" or "poor" conditions, then you're a buffoon. Explains why you're a statist bootlicker though.
2. Maybe two-thirds of the white population. There were around 4-5 million slaves in the USA and only 476,748 free blacks. Further, just because you aren't a slave does not mean that you have your freedom. In any case, the presence of millions of people held in abject slavery is fact against the lie that America was some bastion of freedom or that it ever had a small minarchist government. And far from being an aberration slavery predates the Pilgrims, with the first slaves being brought to Jamestown in 1619, a full year before the Pilgrims arrived in Plymouth in 1620. Slavery was a foundational aspect of American existence.
No, the US didn't invent freedom. This is a stupid statement. John Locke, the origin of many "American" ideas was English and you can find many liberty ideals as far back as ancient China.
The lifespan of humans has increased because of the technological changes began by the Industrial revolution, which began in England.
3. I've already shown you a picture of a man who was literally tortured. One of millions.
The problem with Somalia are all teh groups fighting and killing to establish their version of the centralized state. Statism is murdering Somalia while anarchy is teh only think providing for Somalian.
As for anarchy, John Locke recognized that complete anarchy is complete freedom.
Is it libertarian to tell other libertarians they shouldn't support anarcho-capitalism? Make up your own mind.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
I never said or even remotely implied that. There is no way you could logically interpret that from what I said. I know you like to call names and I don't. But I will this time. You aren't a libertarian. You are a nihilist. You are a cancer. People like you are worth less than zero to libertarianism.
Good point. The colonists broke off from England because they had too much freedom under British rule.No, the US didn't invent freedom. This is a stupid statement. John Locke, the origin of many "American" ideas was English and you can find many liberty ideals as far back as ancient China.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So you would never subscribe to something like HuffPo or NatRev for libertarians?
Also, what kind of support are we talking about? What -isms can be supported by libertarians?
One more thing, can the Alt-Right be supported by libertarians? (However you define support.)
I would maybe subscribe to a publication that shared a sufficient amount of my views but I would not consider them to be the determiner of what libertariansism is.
Libertarians can support whatever they want, but it may or may not be compatible with libertarianism, and it may not be a good idea for them to do so.
Whether that is a good idea or not depends on how you define the "alt-right".
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
OK
So the choice of who/what/when/where/why to support "X" is ultimately in the hands of the individual?Libertarians can support whatever they want, but it may or may not be compatible with libertarianism, and it may not be a good idea for them to do so.
AlternateRight.comWhether that is a good idea or not depends on how you define the "alt-right".
Besides being a simple fact that is definitely the libertarian position.
It appears to be dead, I got redirected to this:
Hundreds of thousands of premium domains
Questions? We're here to help! Call today:
1-303-893-0552
AlternateRight.com is for sale
https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_p...ateright&e=com
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So if the simple facts of libertarianism need to conform to a definite position, assuming these simple facts aren't capriciously chosen by a mob or an elite as the wind blows, what's the bedrock identity libertarians need to share: the Nation or the State? Which one's the most resilient heritage to found a libertarian identity upon? You've established it isn't the individual, and that we don't owe loyalty to fiefdoms like NatRev.
Here's what I mean: https://www.usip.org/glossary/state-versus-nation
Try AltRight.com they must have switched domains after 2011. New brand, same bs.It appears to be dead, I got redirected to this:
Hundreds of thousands of premium domains
Questions? We're here to help! Call today:
1-303-893-0552
AlternateRight.com is for sale
https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_p...ateright&e=com
Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-25-2017 at 09:18 PM.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Not the State? I hope you don't mean Liberty of the State, because then you have no grounds to complain.
They are the AltRight, started opinion bloc'ing ~10 ago as the AlternativeRight.They seem to be a dangerous mix of lies and truths, if they are the alt right that your question referred to then they should be avoided even temporary cooperation on shared values is dangerous.
Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-25-2017 at 09:41 PM.
Liberty for the individual is the bedrock principle, a state is necessary to protect it from enemies foreign and domestic.
I've never looked into the alt-right and I have heard many people give different opinions about what the alt-right is, I believe you that they are the founders of the movement but there are others who claim the mantle, some of them seem more like the Constitution Party (I am not calling them alt-right, I am just using them as a comparison for some of those who claim to be the alt-right).
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
What if I told you that the State does not protect Life or Liberty from enemies foreign or domestic?
Yeah, that's what an opinion bloc are, they're often movements or trusts colonized by opportunists. Once they gain the audience's attention, they build brand loyalty, then their editors cut out the old guard. That's how the Trotskyists used NatRev and such to gag the Conservatives.I've never looked into the alt-right and I have heard many people give different opinions about what the alt-right is, I believe you that they are the founders of the movement but there are others who claim the mantle, some of them seem more like the Constitution Party (I am not calling them alt-right, I am just using them as a comparison for some of those who claim to be the alt-right).
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Why do you believe States are inevitable? In who's interest is it to tell you that, because States are magically inevitable, therefore we need them now? Is mankind on some sort of progressive trajectory? Is the Inevitable State going to perfect us?
History attests that States are not inevitable, that they've had to be fought and won for. Keeping in mind States =/= Nations, Nations corrode as the rule of the State centralizes.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Nations aren't governments by any definition. Nation-States are nations with a state government. That still leaves you explaining why it is States are inevitable, when they're not. They have to be fought for, won, and kept or they don't happen. I know founding myths like to romanticize the State's conquest of a Nation, but the magic ain't how they come to be.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Good sir, you misunderstand. That list is category/subject-specific. That the individual authors had shortcomings does not diminish the value of those works. I have lots of qualms with Rothbard, Ron Paul, Hoppe, von Mises, etc, but I also like a lot of what they do. And they're good enough that I consider them part of the libertarian canon(or as Riggenbach calls it "The Libertarian Tradition").
ETA: RP likes Murray, and Mises was a fan too(though Mises didn't agree with his politics, of course). You should give him an honest chance. His history and econ are world class, even though his ethics are flawed.
Sorry, bro. Nailed it^^ that reminds me... Ma Vlast is a classic example of State origin mythology that's not all that different from the myths Muricans make up for their sense of national origin and identity.You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Raginfridus again.
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