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Thread: Should Libertarians support anarcho-capitalism?

  1. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Anarchists and minarchists are both at a loss as to how either can be pulled off. With the symbiosis of the Warfare State, Welfare State and Fed, nobody Democrat or Republican gets to choose between welfare and warfare. The reduction of either in isolation is out of the question. If you want one, you get the other.

    To talk about taking things down to the level of local police and courts is indestinguishably pie-in-the-sky to outright anarchy. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. No need to alienate people on precisely the same mission you're on.
    +Rep
    Amash>Trump

    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy



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  3. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    The first time I heard about it, it sounded like a good idea. If less government is good, why not no government? But then I started thinking it thru.
    Did you ever start thinking about where some people derived the right to rule over other people?

    Asking for a friend...



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  5. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I partly disagree because anarchists assume it doesn't matter which part of the state you reduce. For example suppose the 2 choices for the US were to eliminate everything but the military or everything but social security. Since both are about the same size anarchists would say it doesn't matter which gets eliminated. But we'd be far better off with just a military compared to just social security. Unless our new masters that conquer us were nicer than the current ones. But I don't really want to take that chance and I don't want to go thru the "getting conquered" part.

    Anyway I think in reality anarchists probably are allies to libertarians because I don't think they believe their own crap. How many anarchists would support eliminating the police and courts in their hometown? None in reality
    .
    You are mistaken. (You probably also haven't read the history of police and law in Murica, chronicled in various posts and threads by AF and I)

    The town that eliminated the police-
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/l...depart/437834/
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  6. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You are mistaken. (You probably also haven't read the history of police and law in Murica, chronicled in various posts and threads by AF and I)

    The town that eliminated the police-
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/l...depart/437834/
    +rep, sir.

    I'm surprised to see a member whom I recognize to be somewhat of a regular here to make such a foolish statement.

    I'm staggered that such a woeful misunderstanding of our view of statelessness/voluntarism persists here, after literally YEARS of debate on the topic.

  7. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You are mistaken. (You probably also haven't read the history of police and law in Murica, chronicled in various posts and threads by AF and I)

    The town that eliminated the police-
    http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/l...depart/437834/
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    +rep, sir.

    I'm surprised to see a member whom I recognize to be somewhat of a regular here to make such a foolish statement.

    I'm staggered that such a woeful misunderstanding of our view of statelessness/voluntarism persists here, after literally YEARS of debate on the topic.

    Varnell City Council votes 3-1 to disband the agency, putting Whitfield County Sheriff's Office in charge of law enforcement

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #516
    Hey, does anarcho-capitalism allow me to manufacture and sell chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons to whomever I want?

  9. #517
    Here's some thoughts from real Anarchists on the use of the oxymoronic term ''anarcho-capitalism''...



    Section F: Is “anarcho”-capitalism a type of anarchism?

    Anyone who has followed political discussion on the net has probably come across people calling themselves “libertarians” but arguing from a right-wing, pro-capitalist perspective. ...

    In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating the term “libertarian” for itself. Even stranger is that a few of these right-wingers have started calling themselves “anarchists” in what must be one of the finest examples of an oxymoron in the English language: “Anarcho-capitalist”!!!

    Arguing with fools is seldom rewarded, but to let their foolishness to go unchallenged risks allowing them to deceive those who are new to anarchism. This is what this section of the FAQ is for, to show why the claims of these “anarchist” capitalists are false. Anarchism has always been anti-capitalist and any “anarchism” that claims otherwise cannot be part of the anarchist tradition. It is important to stress that anarchist opposition to the so-called capitalist “anarchists” do not reflect some kind of debate within anarchism, as many of these types like to pretend, but a debate between anarchism and its old enemy, capitalism. In many ways this debate mirrors the one between Peter Kropotkin and Herbert Spencer (an English capitalist minimal statist) at the turn the 19th century and, as such, it is hardly new.

    Introductory snip taken from The Anarchist FAQ Editorial Collective - An Anarchist FAQ (07/17), ''Section F: Is “anarcho”-capitalism a type of anarchism?''

    F: Is “anarcho”-capitalism a type of anarchism?
    F.1 Are “anarcho”-capitalists really anarchists?
    F.2 What do “anarcho”-capitalists mean by freedom?
    F.2.1 How does private property affect freedom?
    F.2.2 Do “libertarian”-capitalists support slavery?
    F.3 Why do anarcho”-capitalists place little or no value on equality?
    F.3.1 Why is this disregard for equality important?
    F.3.2 Can there be harmony of interests in an unequal society?
    F.4 What is the right-“libertarian” position on private property?
    F.4.1 What is wrong with a “homesteading” theory of property?
    F.5 Will privatising “the commons” increase liberty?
    F.6 Is “anarcho”-capitalism against the state?
    F.6.1 What’s wrong with this “free market” justice?
    F.6.2 What are the social consequences of such a system?
    F.6.3 But surely market forces will stop abuses by the rich?
    F.6.4 Why are these “defence associations” states?
    F.7 How does the history of “anarcho”-capitalism show that it is not anarchist?
    F.7.1 Are competing governments anarchism?
    F.7.2 Is government compatible with anarchism?
    F.7.3 Can there be a “right-wing” anarchism?
    F.8 What role did the state take in the creation of capitalism?
    F.8.1 What social forces lay behind the rise of capitalism?
    F.8.2 What was the social context of the statement “laissez-faire?”
    F.8.3 What other forms did state intervention in creating capitalism take?
    F.8.4 Aren’t the enclosures a socialist myth?
    F.8.5 What about the lack of enclosures in the Americas?
    F.8.6 How did working people view the rise of capitalism?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 10-19-2017 at 07:02 PM.

  10. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Here's some thoughts from real Anarchists on the use of the oxymoronic term ''anarcho-capitalism''...
    Does he have a degree in anarchy, or maybe a anarchists licence?
    "The Patriarch"

  11. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Did you ever start thinking about where some people derived the right to rule over other people?

    Asking for a friend...
    The "right to rule" is what the Revolution was fought over,, and what founded this country.

    Initially,, there were no "rulers".
    There were elected representatives. NO one ruled.
    There were NO Police.. the concept had not yet been introduced. and there were protections written in to protect from such.

    sadly we are a long way from what was intended.

    However,, humans need some form of organization to resist "Rulers"

    and sadly,, humans here cheer the warlords and welcome a strongman to tell them what to do. every 4 years.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Does he have a degree in anarchy, or maybe a anarchists licence?
    License, you mean? I dunno. But, like the rest of us, he knows that anarchy and capitalism are oxymorons. lol.



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  14. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    License, you mean? I dunno. But, like the rest of us, he knows that anarchy and capitalism are oxymorons. lol.
    Define "us". Do you have a bunch of people in your head?
    "The Patriarch"

  15. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Define "us". Do you have a bunch of people in your head?
    Us means 'not you.'

    You've proven yourself to be a poor contributor to the discussion. And in most discussions, to be frankly honest.

    You should grab yourself another couple of milwaukee's best and go back to the picture thread, O. I believe you own 2/3 of the contributions there. That's more up your alley. If we need a unicorn meme, we'll whistle for you. Okay?

    Leave this discussion to the adults.

    Pst...

  16. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Us means 'not you.'

    You've proven yourself to be a poor contributor to the discussion. And in most discussions, to be frankly honest.

    You should grab yourself another couple of milwaukee's best and go back to the picture thread, O. I believe you own 2/3 of the contributions there. That's more up your alley. If we need a unicorn meme, we'll whistle for you. Okay?

    Leave this discussion to the adults.

    Pst...
    You mean the grown ups like the guy with the gay Achilles avatar? Lol, no.
    "The Patriarch"

  17. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Hey, does anarcho-capitalism allow me to manufacture and sell chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons to whomever I want?
    So. Can I? What's to stop me? Hm? What?

  18. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    So. Can I? What's to stop me? Hm? What?

    Don't forget inviting foreign armies to set up a base on your land.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Hey r3v... Nice ass.

  20. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I think this is illustrative of the ancap mentality in general, and why it troubles some of us.
    It troubles you because your guiding principle seems to be 'order'. Perhaps not, but this statement makes it seem so.

    You argue that practically we cannot have a stateless society because some subset of humanity will organize themselves into a State and destroy or enslave the stateless society. Fine. That's not a philosophical argument against the stateless society, it's a practical argument against it. Can you give me a philosophical argument for the State which aligns with the nature of Man?

    Also, I do honestly understand the practical argument for the State. But I have to wonder why you folks like to point out that there has never been a successful stateless society (even tho' that's not really accurate, and additionally that the kind of stateless society we advocate here hasn't ever really been tried) yet can't acknowledge that the very order of society YOU advocate HAS in fact been tried and has in fact FAILED SPECTACULARLY.

  21. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I think this is illustrative of the ancap mentality in general, and why it troubles some of us.
    No "us" for you. You are for world government. The rest of "us" are not.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights



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  23. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    No "us" for you. You are for world government. The rest of "us" are not.
    Says the Trumpet.

  24. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Says the Trumpet.
    Wow, that was deep. When do you graduate 6th grade?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  25. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    No "us" for you. You are for world government. The rest of "us" are not.
    You lost the ability to be an "us" here when you tried to derail an activist thread. When is @Bryan going to ban Eagle? Why don't we all work to help Gunny and save these arguments for another time? http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...for-NC-House-7!
    Last edited by The Rebel Poet; 10-20-2017 at 09:23 AM.
    Amash>Trump

    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  26. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Liberty occurs only when individuals advocate for it for themselves. You are advocating for world government. It is you that are condescending to people. If people don't want it, who are you or I to tell them otherwise?
    There it is again, that troubling attitude...

    The goal should be the maximization of human liberty.

    If a given political system doesn't do that, we shouldn't be advocating for it.

    That a political system could work if people were different than they are doesn't improve the case for that system.

    It's like your insisting that we all put water in our gas tanks, because water should run an internal combustion engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    It troubles you because your guiding principle seems to be 'order'. Perhaps not, but this statement makes it seem so.
    My guiding principle is maximizing human liberty.

    You argue that practically we cannot have a stateless society because some subset of humanity will organize themselves into a State and destroy or enslave the stateless society.
    Right

    That's not a philosophical argument against the stateless society, it's a practical argument against it.
    Yes, the argument against anarchism is a practical one.

    Can you give me a philosophical argument for the State which aligns with the nature of Man?
    I'm not sure what you mean..

    Also, I do honestly understand the practical argument for the State. But I have to wonder why you folks like to point out that there has never been a successful stateless society (even tho' that's not really accurate, and additionally that the kind of stateless society we advocate here hasn't ever really been tried) yet can't acknowledge that the very order of society YOU advocate HAS in fact been tried and has in fact FAILED SPECTACULARLY.
    Failed how, and in comparison to what?

  27. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In short, no.

    A free market in security (anarcho-capitalism) would be superior to a security monopoly (a state).

    The problem is that a free market in security cannot actually exist.

    Market analysis begins with the assumption that property rights are respected: e.g. statements like "to profit, one must sell something that people want" is true only if theft isn't a viable alternative. Anarcho-capitalists just assume that the absence of the state means the presence of a free market for security: i.e. that there would be no opportunities to profit by criminal means (or that people would voluntarily abstain from exploiting those opportunities out of respect for libertarian ideals). This is wishful thinking.

    The reality is that, if the state were abolished, the people with the guns would not form private defense agencies and peacefully compete for willing customers. Rather, they would use their guns to steal what they wanted, because that's more profitable. Then they would war with one another over who gets to steal from which area, and ultimately coalesce into new states (as has occurred throughout history upon the collapse of a state).

    Anarcho-capitalists might object that a small minority of violent people could not successfully rule the peaceful majority, but they would be arguing against the overwhelming empirical evidence to the contrary. In the end, anarcho-capitalism has much in common with utopian communism, in that it too requires a New Man to make the scheme plausible.

    Libertarians should abandon anarchism, accept the inevitability of the state, and focus on creating a more liberal state.



    It wasn't designed to do so, but that's often its effect, yes.



    /thread Anarchist have much in common with communists. There is a temptation to rewrite history to ignore that this is in fact the history of mankind.

    Along with the idea that if everybody was a voluntaryist, the concept would work perfectly.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  28. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    It troubles you because your guiding principle seems to be 'order'. Perhaps not, but this statement makes it seem so.

    You argue that practically we cannot have a stateless society because some subset of humanity will organize themselves into a State and destroy or enslave the stateless society. Fine. That's not a philosophical argument against the stateless society, it's a practical argument against it. Can you give me a philosophical argument for the State which aligns with the nature of Man?

    Also, I do honestly understand the practical argument for the State. But I have to wonder why you folks like to point out that there has never been a successful stateless society (even tho' that's not really accurate, and additionally that the kind of stateless society we advocate here hasn't ever really been tried) yet can't acknowledge that the very order of society YOU advocate HAS in fact been tried and has in fact FAILED SPECTACULARLY.
    Philosophically, communism works very well. The test of any theory is reality.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  29. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    How's their scorecard?
    About as good as private security services that returned escaped slaves to their owners.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  30. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    You lost the ability to be an "us" here when you tried to derail an activist thread. When is @Bryan going to ban Eagle? Why don't we all work to help Gunny and save these arguments for another time? http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...for-NC-House-7!
    Actually, I was "us" years before you bothered to show up. Back when people actually got off their ass and did something, besides flap their gums. It was amazing back then.

    Are you upset that your threads bitching about both Bryan and me were shut down over in Orignalist's little forum? Are you still sending out tweets to members here, trying to pull them over there?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights



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  32. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I believe that violence, except in defense of natural rights, is always wrong. If my neighbor extorts 20k from me with the threat of violence, it is a crime. If my neighbors band together to do so, it is not justified simply because they've all agreed to do it.
    The issue as you correctly point out is the same - protection of your property rights. Effective organization for the purpose of violating your rights is the problem, whether that organization is called the police, ACME security Service, the Sinaloa Cartel, or no name gang incorporated. Depriving an organization from obtaining a charter to operate does not solve that problem.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  33. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    +rep, sir.

    I'm surprised to see a member whom I recognize to be somewhat of a regular here to make such a foolish statement.

    I'm staggered that such a woeful misunderstanding of our view of statelessness/voluntarism persists here, after literally YEARS of debate on the topic.
    The only thing worse than being rude is being wrong and rude.

    "Varnell City Council votes 3-1 to disband the agency, putting Whitfield County Sheriff's Office in charge of law enforcement."

    Thank you Swordsmyth.

  34. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A state is unlikely to provide perfect results but it will provide better results than anarchy.
    Although the idea that "anarchy" can even give results is misleading. My argument is basically that the state of anarchy is impossible as long as force exists. An anarchy is an unsealed vacuum waiting for air to rush in.

  35. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Varnell City Council votes 3-1 to disband the agency, putting Whitfield County Sheriff's Office in charge of law enforcement
    LOL!

    I wonder if they'll apologize for call me "foolish".

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