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Thread: Should Libertarians support anarcho-capitalism?

  1. #121
    So if mankind will make tribes, fiefdoms, or self-govern what-have-you, then the State vs Chaos dilemma is false. There's chaos within States, and inflicted by them, enough to go around for generations. The State isn't magically inevitable, it doesn't protect our personal Liberty, and all its amounted to, after 400 years trying, is a cluster$#@! bigger than any previously tried.

    So this one's for anybody who's read this far: what's wrong with libertarians living parallel to, but as far from within, the State as they can get? Anarchy doesn't have to mean chaos if you're living self-governed as best you can. It doesn't necessarily mean balaclava and molotovs, if the libertarian has taken the appropriate actions towards anarchic, sovereign living.

    The op might ask instead, "should libertarians support open warfare with the State?" Do we need to review what happens, when people go to war with the FBI? They lose. Always.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So if mankind will make tribes, fiefdoms, or self-govern what-have-you, then the State vs Chaos dilemma is false. There's chaos within States, and inflicted by them, enough to go around for generations. The State isn't magically inevitable, it doesn't protect our personal Liberty, and all its amounted to, after 400 years trying, is a cluster$#@! bigger than any previously tried.

    So this one's for anybody who's read this far: what's wrong with libertarians living parallel to, but as far from within, the State as they can get? Anarchy doesn't have to mean chaos if you're living self-governed as best you can. It doesn't necessarily mean balaclava and molotovs, if the libertarian has taken the appropriate actions towards anarchic, sovereign living.

    The op might ask instead, "should libertarians support open warfare with the State?" Do we need to review what happens, when people go to war with the FBI? They lose. Always.
    When I think of anarchism balaclava and molotovs don't even come to mind at all. People running around doing that stupid $#@! don't even know what the word means. They just think it's cool to call themselves that.
    "The Patriarch"

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So if mankind will make tribes, fiefdoms, or self-govern what-have-you, then the State vs Chaos dilemma is false. There's chaos within States, and inflicted by them, enough to go around for generations. The State isn't magically inevitable, it doesn't protect our personal Liberty, and all its amounted to, after 400 years trying, is a cluster$#@! bigger than any previously tried.

    So this one's for anybody who's read this far: what's wrong with libertarians living parallel to, but as far from within, the State as they can get? Anarchy doesn't have to mean chaos if you're living self-governed as best you can. It doesn't necessarily mean balaclava and molotovs, if the libertarian has taken the appropriate actions towards anarchic, sovereign living.

    The op might ask instead, "should libertarians support open warfare with the State?" Do we need to review what happens, when people go to war with the FBI? They lose. Always.
    If you advocate avoiding unnecessary imperial entanglements then there is nothing wrong with that, but you will find yourself in territory controlled by a state, Anarchy will never be able to hold territory for long, since I will find myself in a state's territory I will try to make it as liberty oriented as I can.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you advocate avoiding unnecessary imperial entanglements then there is nothing wrong with that, but you will find yourself in territory controlled by a state, Anarchy will never be able to hold territory for long, since I will find myself in a state's territory I will try to make it as liberty oriented as I can.
    By what means?
    "The Patriarch"

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    By what means?
    That depends on my opportunities.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That depends on my opportunities.
    You mean the opportunities granted to you?
    "The Patriarch"

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    You mean the opportunities granted to you?
    Any opportunity I get.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Aw, geez. Why'd you have to quote me, of all people on this thread? Hm? Why? I left the thread.

    Firstly, I advocate for small government. Meaning that the government has one and only one role. Which is to protect Individual Liberty.
    Yeah. So did "the Founding Fathers".

    When you advocate for the State, you essentially advocate for a Total State. It ALWAYS evolves that way.

    You can advocate for freedom, or you can advocate for slavery. You've chosen to advocate for slavery.

    Outcomes, by the way, are not relevant. You're not in charge of outcomes. You're responsible for that which you advocate.

    Anarchists - advocates of statelessness - wouldn't tell you that outcomes are guaranteed in a world without the State.

    That isn't possible in what is being offered in this thread. What is being offered in this thread is the question of replacing one State with another State
    Exactly. Rather than refusing to be responsible for subjugation, you've chosen to actively advocate for it. Congratulations.

    And in the replacement State (A Democracy in this case), the Individual and any group of Individuals has no protection against the Majority. None. In a Democracy there is no mechanism to protect the rights of The One to the right to his rights against the unchecked power of the Majority.
    Yawn. 101.

    Secondly, I'm intellectually honest enough to know that anarchy and capitalism do not mix. They are patently contrary to one another in fundamental principle.
    This is an absurdity, of course. That's why you've offered no proof of it.

    Those ideologies are not in the least incompatible. Statelessness does not at all obviate the free exchange of goods and services (assuming that is what you mean by "capitalism"). In fact, one is more likely to be able to engage in the free exchange of goods and services without the State.

    I'm smart enough to understand that economic security is not possible without a coercive force.
    Again, you're so sure of your psychic abilities that you've gone ahead and overturned the objective fact of human liberty before you could even see it put into practice.

    Can you hook me up with tomorrow's lottery numbers, Natural "Citizen". :lol:

    I've thought it through all the way.
    Oh, that much is clear, sir. Quite a world you've conjured in your own mind. :thumb:

    "Thinking it through all the way" does not have anything to do with realities as they might exist outside of your own head.

    You're no better than a Communist. You've played out human history in your own head and decided that freedom isn't worth the risk. You've determined that your preferred degree of "coercive force" is the correct degree of coercive force. You're in league with good company - Washington, Jefferson, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin. Congrats.

    Some friends, observably, have not.

    As a matter of fact, why don't you do us a favor and define the fundmental principles of anarchy to your best ability. And after that, define the fundamental principes of capitalism to your best ability, please.
    You own your life. I own mine. Full stop.

    Everything follows from that. It's really not all that difficult.

    We can skip the free riders for now, but surely will get back to them because they're the ones who will cause your coercive force to implode under its own weight.
    Again, your powers of prescience are staggering. It's almost like I don't even have to live my life - why don't you just tell me what happens at the end?

    And when you're finished, I'll do the same.

    Deal?
    Oh, I'm sure you will.

    Just another know-it-all out to show us all how we should be living our lives. You don't own my life, Natural "Citizen". You only own yours.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    As far as ancient Iceland goes their anarchy was a balance of blood-feuds, there was no justice, eventually five great power factions emerged and threatened to start civil war for total control, so the people voluntarily submitted to the king of Norway to have a single central authority to settle disputes and prevent bloodshed.
    Precisely this. Anarchies tend to be fleeting and on the edge of civilization. Iceland and Ireland enjoyed a natural geographic separation from rival powers and even then the threat of a State managed to emerge either internally through disputes or an external military force. Armies can coordinate and build up massive amounts of resources and supplies in such a short amount of time that no Anarchy could successfully rival. When the Paris Commune had an issue with French forces on their border they ineffectively funded a guard/militia type defense and it failed miserably against a hierarchical, disciplined force with more resources. Similar to this, Catalonia was out-bested economically by the Soviet-backed State Socialist forces and Fascist brownshirts.

    Rome's entire history is basically one long example of a powerful State out-smarting, out-financing, and out-maneuvering tribal confederacies that bordered it. Just look at Ceasar's conquest of Gaul: a powerful Empire is able to exploit tribal rivalries along with offering economic advantages to tribal allies. Ironically enough, the most successful resistances of Roman power were when 'barbarians' managed to become like the Romans in terms of centralization and standardization of governments and military units. Examples of guerrilla warfare against powerful empires are interesting yet they tend to be rather rare and exceptions to the rule. One may be tempted to point to Vietnam was instances of guerrilla troops beating back an empire but consider the following:

    - America was not playing by the historical "total warfare" model (kill every man, woman, child, burn the village/farm, and enslave anyone still surviving)
    - Vietcong were backed by Chinese and Soviet powers, hardly a case of a free people rising up against a mighty empire. They were well funded and supported.



    I'd imagine if America turned into a stateless society overnight that you would find things analogous to the historical aforementioned problems. Imagine if hippy "go-green" areas of America wanted to promote green energy and managed to cut out coal totally from their economy, stopping all imports of said products based upon NAP or whatever moral imperative they had. Then imagine China invades the continent- taking resources and creating a new vassal state to benefit their burgeoning Empire. Also imagine they import heavy amounts of coal. What would the coal-based anarchies of West Virginia do in this situation assuming China cuts them a deal and agrees to buy from them in support of their mutual interests? Would they seriously go, "Well our entire lifestyle and economy is based around this one resource but... screw it! We'll side with our neighbors in Cali because... freedom or something!" May be.. but unlikely.
    Last edited by Identity; 10-08-2017 at 05:50 PM.

  12. #130
    When you advocate for the State, you essentially advocate for a Total State. It ALWAYS evolves that way.


    Monarchies (I'm a Monarchist by the way) go back to the genesis of Humanity and rarely ever evolve into a total State-controlled culture. That model is simply economically inefficient- localization and democratization (not necessarily in terms of electoral politics but worker control over industry, somewhat expressed by Guilds in Medieval Europe) work better than bureaucracies. Royals have no desire to destroy their investment with short-term economic measures and no need to look out for the interests of lobbyists. Most Kings traditionally took a "hands-off" approach to a ton of internal affairs in their country. Some right-libertarians have adopted Hoppean Monarchism for this very reason, actually.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Identity View Post


    Monarchies (I'm a Monarchist by the way) go back to the genesis of Humanity and rarely ever evolve into a total State-controlled culture. That model is simply economically inefficient- localization and democratization (not necessarily in terms of electoral politics but worker control over industry, somewhat expressed by Guilds in Medieval Europe) work better than bureaucracies. Royals have no desire to destroy their investment with short-term economic measures and no need to look out for the interests of lobbyists. Most Kings traditionally took a "hands-off" approach to a ton of internal affairs in their country. Some right-libertarians have adopted Hoppean Monarchism for this very reason, actually.
    Ok rev.
    "The Patriarch"

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Ok rev.
    Haha, nope. I'm much too Socialistic for that. I became a Monarchist years ago after listening to Hoppe and reading the Mad Monarchist blog.

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Identity View Post
    Haha, nope. I'm much too Socialistic for that. I became a Monarchist years ago after listening to Hoppe and reading the Mad Monarchist blog.
    Sure.
    "The Patriarch"

  16. #134
    Ah, screw it. The nuts have officially taken over the asylum. I'm done.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 10-11-2017 at 04:11 PM.

  17. #135
    Ugh. I swear, I can't read all that garbage.

    What do you want from me, "Natural Cititzen"? You're in favor of the State. You make a fine argument for it. But at the end of the day, you canNOT clear the hurdle of self-ownership, no matter how you limit your State. Ya CAN'T DO IT. Do I own my life or not? Do you own yours? I do. You do.

    EVERYTHING FOLLOWS FROM THAT. You cannot have a State in a reality in which people own their lives. It's inconvenient. It's unpredictable. It's whatever you said above about the Spanish Civil War or whatever... I'm too tired to argue about it. It doesn't matter to me because we live in the Total State and if you and I are ever lucky enough to live in a world where we have a quarter of the free society you want (let alone the society I want), we'll be the luckiest, freest sunsabiches who ever lived. And I'd be so happy to live in that world I'd be thrilled. But ultimately, you're wrong. You can't square self-ownership with the State, dude. It just can't be done. You can make a practical argument, and I can agree with that argument on PRACTICAL terms... but at the end of the day, there is no legitimate argument for the State that does not contradict the principle of self-ownership, which is the foundation of self-ownership.

    Every anarchist has crossed through these gates.
    Last edited by A Son of Liberty; 10-11-2017 at 04:27 PM.

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Ah, screw it. The nuts have officially taken over the asylum.
    Yup, they sure have. It's sad.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So if mankind will make tribes, fiefdoms, or self-govern what-have-you, then the State vs Chaos dilemma is false. There's chaos within States, and inflicted by them, enough to go around for generations. The State isn't magically inevitable, it doesn't protect our personal Liberty, and all its amounted to, after 400 years trying, is a cluster$#@! bigger than any previously tried.

    So this one's for anybody who's read this far: what's wrong with libertarians living parallel to, but as far from within, the State as they can get? Anarchy doesn't have to mean chaos if you're living self-governed as best you can. It doesn't necessarily mean balaclava and molotovs, if the libertarian has taken the appropriate actions towards anarchic, sovereign living.

    The op might ask instead, "should libertarians support open warfare with the State?" Do we need to review what happens, when people go to war with the FBI? They lose. Always.
    Indeed. The fact is that the State is chaos itself. It gives those with power to do as they choose to whomsoever they choose with impunity. And if you protest the roving hand of violence the State just says it is "law" and suddenly chaos becomes "order" and acceptable. It is preposterous. You never know what edict you've violated or what "law" you have broken. Not until they have a reason to justify throwing you in jail and seizing your property. It is Warlordism taken to the next level in every way and it is one giant chaotic mess.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    You make a fine argument for it.
    Missed that part.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Yup, they sure have. It's sad.
    You went over the rails and supported Trump during the previous cycle, no? I believe that's what I read the few times I stopped around here back then.

    Yet you're gonna make this kind of comment? I shouldn't be surprised...

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Missed that part.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to otherone again.
    :thumbs:

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Ah, screw it. The nuts have officially taken over the asylum. I'm done.
    lololol!

    Sure, yeah... It's not that you couldn't carry your argument in a leaky bucket. It's that, here @ RPF's, the anarchists have "taken over". RIIIIIIGHT... It's not the $#@!ing insane statist Trumpistas who've taken over, it's the freaking logically consistent anarchists who run things around here.

    lol

    Okay, "Natural Citizen". You go ahead and be "done" because of the - what - 3 anarchists here.

    Tough crowd, tough crowd. lol

  25. #142
    Isn't anarcho-capitalism what libertarians do by definition?

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Isn't anarcho-capitalism what libertarians do by definition?
    NO
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #144



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  29. #145
    Why does this always have to be so contentious?

    Why would anybody not want to move forward to some form of anarchy?

    People free from heavy handed government and rules and fatwas and mandates...how is this a problem?

    Maybe it will take another 10,000 years of human evolution, but certainly should be something to strive for.

    In the meantime, lets recognize that currently government is a necessary evil, and work to make it as small and un-intrusive as possible.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Why does this always have to be so contentious?

    Why would anybody not want to move forward to some form of anarchy?

    People free from heavy handed government and rules and fatwas and mandates...how is this a problem?

    Maybe it will take another 10,000 years of human evolution, but certainly should be something to strive for.

    In the meantime, lets recognize that currently government is a necessary evil, and work to make it as small and un-intrusive as possible.
    "If men were angels no government would be necessary"

    When Christ brings us his kingdom those who enter it will govern themselves, until then government is needed to protect the weak from the strong as best as flawed humans can do so.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 10-12-2017 at 05:01 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    NO
    Assemble pools of capital voluntarily and freely to finance projects? Without government laws and regulations? And without a state banking system?

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Assemble pools of capital voluntarily and freely to finance projects? Without government laws and regulations? And without a state banking system?
    Some laws are required to prevent/punish the use of force or fraud.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Why does this always have to be so contentious?
    <ahem> DOOTIE!
    thank you
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    government in needed to protect the weak from the strong as best as flawed humans can do so.
    How's their scorecard?

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