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Thread: Should Libertarians support anarcho-capitalism?

  1. #91

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    Yeah. I think it best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post

    here is the full trascript, I'll let people draw their own conclusions, obviously I don't agree with you.


    http://www.slobodaiprosperitet.tv/en/node/1101


    Carpe Diem!



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  3. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    What? Try to make sense please. Economic security does not require servitude.

    What capitalist exchanges are accomplished by force?
    Well, economic security and economic prosperity are two, quite different, applications. They are more than mere words. Much like Life is more than merely existing. And much like the pursuit of happiness is much more than an ideal. It's an ever-changing aspiration. It's a constantly expanding vision of self-fulfillment. That vision comes from self-realization and from self-development, morally and intellectually. And in every regard.

    When I say economic security, I'm talking about the fact that any society will ultimately turn into a State in some form. In any society there will be a hierarchy. This means rules. This means coercion. And this means that someone has to enforce it.

    Then again, what if someone cant work anymore? What if someone is disabled? Who is going to check your shipping containers from imports outside of your society in order to make sure your material economy isn't blown up?

    And I still never got arounf d to the free rider problem. What happens if you own the dam and some people get the overflow? Now all of a sudden he sees that he doesn't have to pay like the other guy. What if someone consumes more than he should? What decides what is fair and what isnt? Another thing is that human nature dictates that if a man can get away with paying as little as possible, or nothing at all, then, by gosh he'll try.

    Those are just remedial situations and one could go much deeper. I just don't really feel like it, O. I'm serious, now. I'm just really tired of this thread.

    As it is, every State and even the federal government has an economic security department. Homeland security has one where they specifically acknowledge that economic prosperity and economic prosperity are seen different in terms of physical defense.

    Once a State or hierachy is established....and it will be in any society, coercion exists by default. One little rule enforced by a hierarchy is all it takes to establish a State.

    Free trade is not servitude.
    Yeah, I agree.

    Freely exchanging your labor for goods and property and vice versa is not servitude.
    Yeah, I agree.


    What capitalist exchanges are accomplished by force?

    I use the word coercion. What happens if I refuse to pay you for digging my basement? What fear do I have in a capitalist society of not paying you aside from getting my ass kicked nice and good? Are you gonna call the po po.

    One need only look at our situation now. We haven't had true capitalism in a very long time. We have corporatism and mercantilism disguised as capitalism. This is because of the state merging with special interests.

    It won't be any different in any other society because any society will ultimately enlist a hierarchy which, itself, exists as a coercive entity. A State.

    And then you start all over again. Private courts, private police, private armies and on down the list. You end up with the same thing you didn't like in the first place. The difference is that there is no means, no chains, to bind them down from their mischief.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 06:52 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  4. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Well, economic security and economic prosperity are two, quite different, applications. They are more than mere words. Much like Life is more than merely existing. And much like the pursuit of happiness is much more than an ideal. It's an ever-changing aspiration. It's a constantly expanding vision of self-fulfillment. That vision comes from self-realization and from self-development, morally and intellectually. And in every regard.

    Whe nI say economic security, I'm talking about the fact that any society will ultimately turn into a State in some form. In any society there will be a hierarchy. This means rules. This means coercion. And this means that someone has to enforce it.

    Than again, what if someone cant work anymore? What if someone is disabled? Who is going to check your shipping containers from imports outside of your society?

    And I still never got arounf d to the free rider problem. What happens if you own the dam and some people get the overflow? Now all of a sudden he seesthat he doesn;t have to pay like the other guy. Whatt if someone consumes more than he should? What decides wht isfair and what isnt?

    Those are just remedial situations and one could go much deeper. I just don't really feel like it, O. I'm serious, now. I'm just really tired of this thread.

    As it is, every State and even the federal government has an economic security department. Homeland security has one where they specifically acknowledge tht economicprosperity and economic prosperity are seen different in terms of physical defense.

    Once a State or hierachy is established....and it will be in any society, coercion exists by default. One little rule enforcedby a hierarchy is all it takes to establish a State.



    Yeah, I agree.



    Yeah, I agree.





    I use the word coercion. What happens if I refuse to pay you for digging my basement? What fear do I have in a capitalist society of not paying you aside from getting my ass kicked nice and good?
    Leadership=/= governance. There's leadership structure in businesses and churches(the Russian patriarchs tend to be particularly strong leaders, btw), but you wouldn't call them "governments" or "states". You're going to have to bring moar solid evidence to warrant your claims, comrade. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  5. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Leadership=/= governance. There's leadership structure in businesses and churches(the Russian patriarchs tend to be particularly strong leaders, btw), but you wouldn't call them "governments" or "states". You're going to have to bring moar solid evidence to warrant your claims, comrade. ~hugs~
    How do either of those entities protect the rights of The One?

    You can't win, HB. It's a losing game, brother.

    Now leave me alone dammit.

    All of yuns.

    If you want to do anarchy, then, go do it. lol. If it worked so well, why ya around here bugging us?

    Is it maybe because...oh..I dunno...you need us? ...But for waht?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 05:51 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  6. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    How do either of those entities protect the rights of The One?

    You can't win, HB. It's a losing game, brother.

    Now leave me alone dammit.

    All of yuns.

    If you want to do anarchy, then, go do it. lol. If it worked so well, why ya around here bugging us?

    Is it maybe because...oh..I dunno...you need us? ...But for waht?
    To persuade y'all to keep your government to yourselves. You have a lot of difficulty with that, as the folks in Germany, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Qatar, Lebanon, Okinawa, Pakistan, and several dozen other places can attest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  7. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    To persuade y'all to keep your government to yourselves. You have a lot of difficulty with that, as the folks in Germany, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Qatar, Lebanon, Okinawa, Pakistan, and several dozen other places can attest.

    You're one happy-go-lucky, dude, HB. lol.

    Anyway. Bye.

    Carpe Diem!

  8. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Yes, but if the US dissolves the other countries will still exist, with organized military forces, and have nothing but local militias to deal with in the former US lands.
    Not necessarily. There are not just numerous militias in the USA, but numerous large PMCs that are apparently large enough that they have been doing the heavy lifting in Iraq for a decade now. Let us both not make the mistake of assuming that just because something has always been done a certain way that it must always happen or can only happen that way.
    ďMaybe I forgot to mention something to you: I donít believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.Ē -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  9. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    1. Ask that guy's relatives if they would rather live like animals in Africa or live in civilization. For all the whining, I suspect 100% will choose America when it is all said and done.

    2. Slavery ended in 1865 and two-thirds of the population lived in states without slaves before then. The United States is the most successful experiment in human history. It is not a slave state. The United States invented freedom. Slavery was a short term aberration that occurred for political reasons. Civilization did not exist in human history until the United States was founded. People lived short brutal lives before the founding of the United States. The average lifespan was 35 in 1776. The countries that are successful today basically copied the US. The ones that don't copy the US live like it is 1776 still.

    3. If you want a picture of where people actually are tortured and killed- not pretend torture like being taxed at 15%- all you have to do is look at anarchist Somalia. I won't even post a picture of a starving Somalian because of how graphic it is. Anarchy is the moral equivalent to Marxism. It is the absence of freedom.
    1. Africa is home to the oldest civilizations in history. And if you think that someone would rather be a slave than free, even in supposed "uncivilized" or "poor" conditions, then you're a buffoon. Explains why you're a statist bootlicker though.

    2. Maybe two-thirds of the white population. There were around 4-5 million slaves in the USA and only 476,748 free blacks. Further, just because you aren't a slave does not mean that you have your freedom. In any case, the presence of millions of people held in abject slavery is fact against the lie that America was some bastion of freedom or that it ever had a small minarchist government. And far from being an aberration slavery predates the Pilgrims, with the first slaves being brought to Jamestown in 1619, a full year before the Pilgrims arrived in Plymouth in 1620. Slavery was a foundational aspect of American existence.

    No, the US didn't invent freedom. This is a stupid statement. John Locke, the origin of many "American" ideas was English and you can find many liberty ideals as far back as ancient China.

    The lifespan of humans has increased because of the technological changes began by the Industrial revolution, which began in England.

    3. I've already shown you a picture of a man who was literally tortured. One of millions.

    The problem with Somalia are all teh groups fighting and killing to establish their version of the centralized state. Statism is murdering Somalia while anarchy is teh only think providing for Somalian.

    As for anarchy, John Locke recognized that complete anarchy is complete freedom.
    ďMaybe I forgot to mention something to you: I donít believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.Ē -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  10. #99

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    Is it libertarian to tell other libertarians they shouldn't support anarcho-capitalism? Make up your own mind.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  11. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Is it libertarian to tell other libertarians they shouldn't support anarcho-capitalism? Make up your own mind.
    Yes, unless you use the government to tell them they can't.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    And if you think that someone would rather be a slave than free, xplains why you're a statist bootlicker though.
    I never said or even remotely implied that. There is no way you could logically interpret that from what I said. I know you like to call names and I don't. But I will this time. You aren't a libertarian. You are a nihilist. You are a cancer. People like you are worth less than zero to libertarianism.


    No, the US didn't invent freedom. This is a stupid statement. John Locke, the origin of many "American" ideas was English and you can find many liberty ideals as far back as ancient China.
    Good point. The colonists broke off from England because they had too much freedom under British rule.

  13. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    You aren't a libertarian. You are a nihilist.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  14. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes, unless you use the government to tell them they can't.
    Is forming an opinion bloc and centrally directing the "narrative" from the top down libertarian, so that libertarians are told what they can/cannot support also libertarian? No government, just *official* talking points.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  15. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Is forming an opinion bloc and centrally directing the "narrative" from the top down libertarian, so that libertarians are told what they can/cannot support also libertarian? No government, just *official* talking points.
    As far as I know this is an internal debate not a top down command and control situation, libertarianism has to mean something and we are discussing what that should be.

    AnCap is not libertarianism it is AnCapism.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    As far as I know this is an internal debate not a top down command and control situation, libertarianism has to mean something and we are discussing what that should be.

    AnCap is not libertarianism it is AnCapism.
    So you would never subscribe to something like HuffPo or NatRev for libertarians?

    Also, what kind of support are we talking about? What -isms can be supported by libertarians?


    One more thing, can the Alt-Right be supported by libertarians? (However you define support.)
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  17. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So you would never subscribe to something like HuffPo or NatRev for libertarians?
    I would maybe subscribe to a publication that shared a sufficient amount of my views but I would not consider them to be the determiner of what libertariansism is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Also, what kind of support are we talking about? What -isms can be supported by libertarians?
    Libertarians can support whatever they want, but it may or may not be compatible with libertarianism, and it may not be a good idea for them to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    One more thing, can the Alt-Right be supported by libertarians? (However you define support.)
    Whether that is a good idea or not depends on how you define the "alt-right".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I would maybe subscribe to a publication that shared a sufficient amount of my views but I would not consider them to be the determiner of what libertariansism is.
    OK




    Libertarians can support whatever they want, but it may or may not be compatible with libertarianism, and it may not be a good idea for them to do so.
    So the choice of who/what/when/where/why to support "X" is ultimately in the hands of the individual?




    Whether that is a good idea or not depends on how you define the "alt-right".
    AlternateRight.com
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  19. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So the choice of who/what/when/where/why to support "X" is ultimately in the hands of the individual?
    Besides being a simple fact that is definitely the libertarian position.




    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    AlternateRight.com
    It appears to be dead, I got redirected to this:



    Hundreds of thousands of premium domains

    Questions? We're here to help! Call today:
    1-303-893-0552


    AlternateRight.com is for sale

    https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_p...ateright&e=com
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Besides being a simple fact that is definitely the libertarian position.
    So if the simple facts of libertarianism need to conform to a definite position, assuming these simple facts aren't capriciously chosen by a mob or an elite as the wind blows, what's the bedrock identity libertarians need to share: the Nation or the State? Which one's the most resilient heritage to found a libertarian identity upon? You've established it isn't the individual, and that we don't owe loyalty to fiefdoms like NatRev.

    Here's what I mean: https://www.usip.org/glossary/state-versus-nation

    It appears to be dead, I got redirected to this:



    Hundreds of thousands of premium domains

    Questions? We're here to help! Call today:
    1-303-893-0552


    AlternateRight.com is for sale


    https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_p...ateright&e=com
    Try AltRight.com they must have switched domains after 2011. New brand, same bs.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-25-2017 at 09:18 PM.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  21. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    So if the simple facts of libertarianism need to conform to a definite position, assuming these simple facts aren't capriciously chosen by a mob or an elite as the wind blows, what's the bedrock identity libertarians need to share: the Nation or the State? Which one's the most resilient heritage to found a libertarian identity upon? You've established it isn't the individual, and that we don't owe loyalty to fiefdoms like NatRev.
    Liberty is the bedrock principle.



    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Try AltRight.com they must have switched domains after 2011. New brand, same bs.
    They seem to be a dangerous mix of lies and truths, if they are the alt right that your question referred to then they should be avoided even temporary cooperation on shared values is dangerous.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is the bedrock principle.
    Not the State? I hope you don't mean Liberty of the State, because then you have no grounds to complain.


    They seem to be a dangerous mix of lies and truths, if they are the alt right that your question referred to then they should be avoided even temporary cooperation on shared values is dangerous.
    They are the AltRight, started opinion bloc'ing ~10 ago as the AlternativeRight.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-25-2017 at 09:41 PM.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  23. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Not the State? I hope you don't mean Liberty of the State, because then you have no grounds to complain.
    Liberty for the individual is the bedrock principle, a state is necessary to protect it from enemies foreign and domestic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    They are the AltRight, started opinion bloc'ing ~10 ago as the AlternativeRight.
    I've never looked into the alt-right and I have heard many people give different opinions about what the alt-right is, I believe you that they are the founders of the movement but there are others who claim the mantle, some of them seem more like the Constitution Party (I am not calling them alt-right, I am just using them as a comparison for some of those who claim to be the alt-right).
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty for the individual is the bedrock principle, a state is necessary to protect it from enemies foreign and domestic.
    What if I told you that the State does not protect Life or Liberty from enemies foreign or domestic?


    I've never looked into the alt-right and I have heard many people give different opinions about what the alt-right is, I believe you that they are the founders of the movement but there are others who claim the mantle, some of them seem more like the Constitution Party (I am not calling them alt-right, I am just using them as a comparison for some of those who claim to be the alt-right).
    Yeah, that's what an opinion bloc are, they're often movements or trusts colonized by opportunists. Once they gain the audience's attention, they build brand loyalty, then their editors cut out the old guard. That's how the Trotskyists used NatRev and such to gag the Conservatives.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  25. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    What if I told you that the State does not protect Life or Liberty from enemies foreign or domestic?
    We would disagree, I would also tell you that a state is inevitable so you have to create one that is liberty oriented so that you don't get a tyrannical one.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We would disagree, I would also tell you that a state is inevitable so you have to create one that is liberty oriented so that you don't get a tyrannical one.
    Why do you believe States are inevitable? In who's interest is it to tell you that, because States are magically inevitable, therefore we need them now? Is mankind on some sort of progressive trajectory? Is the Inevitable State going to perfect us?

    History attests that States are not inevitable, that they've had to be fought and won for. Keeping in mind States =/= Nations, Nations corrode as the rule of the State centralizes.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  27. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Keeping in mind States =/= Nations, why do you believe States are inevitable? In who's interest is it to tell you that, because States are magically inevitable, therefore we need them now? Is mankind on some sort of progressive trajectory? Is the Inevitable State going to perfect us?

    History attests that States are not inevitable, that they've had to be fought and won for, and that Nations corrode as the rule of the State centralizes.
    That depends on your definition of the state, I am calling any government a state, Anarchy always falls to organized forces.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That depends on your definition of the state, I am calling any government a state, Anarchy always falls to organized forces.
    Nations aren't governments by any definition. Nation-States are nations with a state government. That still leaves you explaining why it is States are inevitable, when they're not. They have to be fought for, won, and kept or they don't happen. I know founding myths like to romanticize the State's conquest of a Nation, but the magic ain't how they come to be.
    If freedom isn't free, it isn't liberty - its license.

    "And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don't care if Americans think we're running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them."
    - Joel Stein, LA TIMES

  29. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Nations aren't governments by any definition. Nation-States are nations with a state government. That still leaves you explaining why it is States are inevitable, when they're not. They have to be fought for, won, and kept or they don't happen. I know founding myths like to romanticize the State's conquest of a Nation, but the magic ain't how they come to be.
    Any given state is not inevitable, but some state is, tribes will form if nothing else, they will choose leaders and enforce rules on members and control territory.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Well, I don't know what you mean by equating HB's list of works by various authors as "those days."

    We've always been for small, limited government as a platform. Limited for Liberty.

    We've not been ant-government as a platform so far as I can recall. If we have and I'm mistaken, then please tell me when that time was.

    That aside, let's take a look at HB's list. It contains works from a broad cast of authors. All of whom offer differing, varying, and most often contrary applications of an ideal. Now this presents a problem. I'll tell you why. It presents a problem because each and every one of those varying applications must be secured by a governmental body of some concoction which must be supported by both society as well as smart people. It's far more complex than just applying an ism to something and rolling with it. Each one of those varying applications of a single ism demand a tailored means of security. And in every case all you're doing is trading one State for another.

    The application of any ism (particularly with regard to securing it) is equally as important as said principles of the ism.

    I don;t agree with Hoppe, Rothbard, and sure as heck wouldn't even touch Stefan Molyneux wit ha 10 foot pole.

    I like Ludwig Von Mises. He did a great job at explaining the shortcomings in the applications of his counterparts. Which is not to minimize such authors as Rothbard and Hoppe. All contributed something to the ideal.
    Good sir, you misunderstand. That list is category/subject-specific. That the individual authors had shortcomings does not diminish the value of those works. I have lots of qualms with Rothbard, Ron Paul, Hoppe, von Mises, etc, but I also like a lot of what they do. And they're good enough that I consider them part of the libertarian canon(or as Riggenbach calls it "The Libertarian Tradition").

    ETA: RP likes Murray, and Mises was a fan too(though Mises didn't agree with his politics, of course). You should give him an honest chance. His history and econ are world class, even though his ethics are flawed.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 09-25-2017 at 11:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  31. #120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Nations aren't governments by any definition. Nation-States are nations with a state government. That still leaves you explaining why it is States are inevitable, when they're not. They have to be fought for, won, and kept or they don't happen. I know founding myths like to romanticize the State's conquest of a Nation, but the magic ain't how they come to be.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Raginfridus again.
    Sorry, bro. Nailed it^^ that reminds me... Ma Vlast is a classic example of State origin mythology that's not all that different from the myths Muricans make up for their sense of national origin and identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

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