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Thread: Should Libertarians support anarcho-capitalism?

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    The United States is the most successful experiment in human history. It is not a slave state. The United States invented freedom. Slavery was a short term aberration that occurred for political reasons. Civilization did not exist in human history until the United States was founded. People lived short brutal lives before the founding of the United States. The average lifespan was 35 in 1776. The countries that are successful today basically copied the US. The ones that don't copy the US live like it is 1776 still.
    That's not remotely true..

    It's correct to say that the state is necessary for civilization, of course, but that long precedes the US.

    The United States was in many respect a sign of decline.

    The apex of civilization appeared in Europe in the late 18th century (it wasn't democratic).
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.



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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    No. We mind our own business.
    You've spent your time in this subforum advocating a position which explicitly does NOT mind it's own business [sic].

    I mean, come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    If you want a picture of where people actually are tortured and killed- not pretend torture like being taxed at 15%- all you have to do is look at anarchist Somalia. I won't even post a picture of a starving Somalian because of how graphic it is. Anarchy is the moral equivalent to Marxism. It is the absence of freedom.
    I don't think I care enough anymore to come in here and refute stupidity like this, so suffice to say you're literally an idiot.

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    You've not settled it. Much smarter people than you think it is an insane idea. In fact, no one can demonstrate how it will work.

    FA Hayek thought it idiotic.


    Here is what Mises thought about Rothbard's anarchism from someone who sat in Mises' seminar.





    Just reading the comments on this site about how people here would shoot different people who have wronged them shows why anarchy is an awful idea. You need a monopoly on force to set objective rules of the game and someone to enforce those rules objectively as possible.
    Your fallacy is...
    Appeal to Authority

    argumentum ad verecundiam
    (also known as: argument from authority, appeal to false authority, appeal to unqualified authority, argument from false authority, ipse dixit)
    Description: Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument. As the audience, allowing an irrelevant authority to add credibility to the claim being made.
    Logical Form:
    According to person 1, Y is true.
    Therefore, Y is true.
    Example #1:
    My 5th-grade teacher once told me that girls would go crazy for boys if they learn how to dance. Therefore, if you want to make the ladies go crazy for you, learn to dance.
    Explanation: Even if the 5th-grade teacher were an expert on relationships, her belief about what makes girls “go crazy” for boys is speculative, or perhaps circumstantial, at best.
    Example #2:
    The Pope told me that priests could turn bread and wine into Jesus’ body and blood. The Pope is not a liar. Therefore, priests really can do this.
    Explanation: The Pope may believe what he says, and perhaps the Pope is not a liar, but the Pope is not an authority on the fact that the bread and wine are actually transformed into Jesus’ body and blood. After all, how much flesh and blood does this guy Jesus actually have to give?
    Exception: Appealing to authority is valid when the authority is actually a legitimate (debatable) authority on the facts of the argument. In the above example, if Jesus testified that this was actually happening, I guess we’d have to believe him. The above example demonstrates the kind of subtle difference in being an authority on the idea of transubstantiation vs. the actual effectiveness of transubstantiation.
    Tip: Question authority -- or become the authority that people look to for answers.
    References:
    Hume, D. (2004). An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding. Courier Corporation.



    Try again. People a lot smarter than you have already dealt with the common objections to anarchism if you aren't too lazy to crack the books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post

    You've spent your time in this subforum advocating a position which explicitly does NOT mind it's own business [sic].

    I mean, come on...

    Aw, geez. Why'd you have to quote me, of all people on this thread? Hm? Why? I left the thread.

    Firstly, I advocate for small government. Meaning that the government has one and only one role. Which is to protect Individual Liberty.

    That isn't possible in what is being offered in this thread. What is being offered in this thread is the question of replacing one State with another State. And in the replacement State (A Democracy in this case), the Individual and any group of Individuals has no protection against the Majority. None. In a Democracy there is no mechanism to protect the rights of The One to the right to his rights against the unchecked power of the Majority.

    Secondly, I'm intellectually honest enough to know that anarchy and capitalism do not mix. They are patently contrary to one another in fundamental principle.

    I'm smart enough to understand that economic security is not possible without a coercive force.

    I've thought it through all the way.

    Some friends, observably, have not.

    As a matter of fact, why don't you do us a favor and define the fundmental principles of anarchy to your best ability. And after that, define the fundamental principes of capitalism to your best ability, please.

    We can skip the free riders for now, but surely will get back to them because they're the ones who will cause your coercive force to implode under its own weight.

    And when you're finished, I'll do the same.

    Deal?

    Show us your wisdom, Son of Liberty.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-23-2017 at 09:07 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    You're asking the wrong questions. In anarcho-capitalism there would be no USA.
    But there would be a State none the less. Economic security requires a coercive force. As a consequence, any system which depends upon coercive force to achieve economic security demands servitude. This is fundamental.

    Another thing, Pierz, respectfully speaking. This is just a little tip for functionally debating, since I've noticed that you try to do this quite a bit in order to sell your ism. And it's not just you, this happens every time we debate trustees of this particular ism. You cannot reframe the question or the terms of the whole of the debate in order to omit your ism's shortcomings. At least, not honestly. You will get busted and called out on it every single time. At least, on this forum. Every single time. Simple ignorance, of course, is an entirely different matter. We'll try to help one to understand the shortcomings of voluntary socialism if one is willing to objectively hear them so as to make an informed choice toward a functional understanding of the workings of culture, government, proper man-to-man/government-to-man relations, etc.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-23-2017 at 08:58 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Your fallacy is...
    Appeal to Authority

    argumentum ad verecundiam
    (also known as: argument from authority, appeal to false authority, appeal to unqualified authority, argument from false authority, ipse dixit)
    Description: Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument. As the audience, allowing an irrelevant authority to add credibility to the claim being made.
    Logical Form:
    According to person 1, Y is true.
    Therefore, Y is true.
    Example #1:
    My 5th-grade teacher once told me that girls would go crazy for boys if they learn how to dance. Therefore, if you want to make the ladies go crazy for you, learn to dance.
    Explanation: Even if the 5th-grade teacher were an expert on relationships, her belief about what makes girls “go crazy” for boys is speculative, or perhaps circumstantial, at best.
    Example #2:
    The Pope told me that priests could turn bread and wine into Jesus’ body and blood. The Pope is not a liar. Therefore, priests really can do this.
    Explanation: The Pope may believe what he says, and perhaps the Pope is not a liar, but the Pope is not an authority on the fact that the bread and wine are actually transformed into Jesus’ body and blood. After all, how much flesh and blood does this guy Jesus actually have to give?
    Exception: Appealing to authority is valid when the authority is actually a legitimate (debatable) authority on the facts of the argument. In the above example, if Jesus testified that this was actually happening, I guess we’d have to believe him. The above example demonstrates the kind of subtle difference in being an authority on the idea of transubstantiation vs. the actual effectiveness of transubstantiation.
    Tip: Question authority -- or become the authority that people look to for answers.
    References:
    Hume, D. (2004). An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding. Courier Corporation.



    Try again. People a lot smarter than you have already dealt with the common objections to anarchism if you aren't too lazy to crack the books.
    An accusation of "Appeal to authority" followed by an "Appeal to authority"

    Krug linked to videos where arguments were laid out, you just said "People a lot smarter than you have already dealt with the common objections to anarchism if you aren't too lazy to crack the books."

    Why don't you try explaining what prevents a corrupt private defense agency/court system or a literal robber baron from establishing a state by conquest?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #67

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    This thread needs Occam's. That's what this thread needs. At least he's gosh darned realistic.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-23-2017 at 07:43 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    An accusation of "Appeal to authority" followed by an "Appeal to authority"

    Krug linked to videos where arguments were laid out, you just said "People a lot smarter than you have already dealt with the common objections to anarchism if you aren't too lazy to crack the books."

    Why don't you try explaining what prevents a corrupt private defense agency/court system or a literal robber baron from establishing a state by conquest?
    ...Except it wasn't an appeal to authority. Please re-read the explanation of the fallacy for comprehension. Insisting someone read people who have actually thought through a philosophy and written about it intelligently in order to actually comprehend it is not significantly different than directing a person to a definitive encyclopedia. (rather like directing someone to read the Objectivist Manifesto and Rand's other non fiction in order to understand Objectivism instead of making $#@! up about Objectivism) Please school yourself before trying to school me, youngster.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 09-23-2017 at 07:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  10. #69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    ...Except it wasn't an appeal to authority. Please re-read the explanation of the fallacy for comprehension. Insisting someone read people who have actually thought through a philosophy and written about it intelligently in order to actually comprehend it is not significantly different than directing a person to a definitive encyclopedia. Please school yourself before trying to school me, youngster.
    That might make you equal to Krug IF you provided links to the people you claim can counter the arguments he linked to, go ahead enlighten us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #70

    Default

    Ah gawsh. When the youngsters start saying youngster, it's probably time to put me out to pasture. lolol.

    I keep forgetting that we've watched people basically grow up under the tent for the past 30 years or so. But that's a good thing, I suppose.

    You guys would've had fun in the 80s when a feller had to pound pavement the old fashioned way. No Internet, no smart phones, no nothing. Instant activism was unheard of. Only radio and newspapers and if your letter got through to the editor and printed, it was a small victory. Billboards were the memes of the day. lolol.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-23-2017 at 08:05 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  12. #71

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    ...Except it wasn't an appeal to authority. Please re-read the explanation of the fallacy for comprehension. Insisting someone read people who have actually thought through a philosophy and written about it intelligently in order to actually comprehend it is not significantly different than directing a person to a definitive encyclopedia. (rather like directing someone to read the Objectivist Manifesto and Rand's other non fiction in order to understand Objectivism instead of making $#@! up about Objectivism) Please school yourself before trying to school me, youngster.

    You demonstrate yet again that the best arguments statists can come up against anarchism are strawmen. Thanks for this dazzling virtuoso display of ignorance, tho.
    I linked to them because the implication of your post is anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant and only able to make strawmen arguments against anarchy. I don't believe Hayek, Mises and Rand are ignoramuses. What I did not say is that they believe anarchy is a bad idea therefore I am right. That would be an appeal to authority. Though it is perfectly reasonable to use them as a reference because they can more articulately express views than I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post

    Try again. People a lot smarter than you have already dealt with the common objections to anarchism if you aren't too lazy to crack the books.
    I have never heard my objections refuted. Certainly not by Rothbard or David Friedman or you.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 09-23-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That might make you equal to Krug IF you provided links to the people you claim can counter the arguments he linked to, go ahead enlighten us.
    Meh, Krug is weaksauce like you. This subject has been covered many times since '08. I sometimes forget y'all are n00bs here, sorry.

    This was complied by our friend Wesker back in 2011. You should have read it long ago. (other people like Conza have compiled lists too, I just can't find them ATM)

    Mises.org media page. FREE BOOKS! added 7/27/11


    General/Introductions to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Antimarket Ethics: A Praxeological Critique by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard destroys many common criticisms against the market, absolutely a must read, for minarchists too.)
    The State is Not Great by Jacob Spinney (best video intro in existence. VERY GOOD.)
    Anarcho-Capitalist FAQ by Hogeye Bill
    The Obviousness of Anarchy by John Hasnas
    Evil Monopolies Are Fairy Tales In Free Markets by Jacob Spinney (great video)
    Fear of Monopoly by Brad Edmonds
    Monopolies by D.T. Armentano (In an economy free of governmental regulation, wouldn't a firm or group of firms obtain a monopoly over some vital resource or product?)
    The Myth of Natural Monopoly by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
    Taxes are the price we pay to... by Mike P (taxation, self ownership, democracy)
    What Is Anarchy? by Butler Shaffer
    What Libertarianism Is by Stephan Kinsella
    Disproving the State by Stefan Molyneux
    The Non-Aggression Axiom of Libertarianism by Walter Block
    The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists by Murray Rothbard
    The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives by Stefan Molyneux
    Introduction to a Stateless Society Introduction list with multiple articles and authors
    The Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard
    Society Without a State by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard defines the State and Anarchy here)
    Forget The Argument From Efficiency by Stefan Molyneux
    War, Peace, and the State by Murray Rothbard (philosophy on nukes here)
    Why We Couldn't Abolish Slavery Then and Can't Abolish Government Now by Robert Higgs
    Anarchy and the 'Problem of the Commons' by Stefan Molyneux
    Toward a Universal Libertarian Theory of Gun (Weapon) Control:a Spatial and Geographical Analysis by Walter Block (theory on nukes included)
    Arguments Against Anarchy by Jarret B. Wollstein (warring defense agencies)
    Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections by Roderick T. Long
    Objectivism and The State: An Open Letter to Ayn Rand by Roy A. Childs, Jr.
    Anarchism and Minarchism; No Rapproachment Possible: Reply to Tibor Machan by Walter Block
    Anarchy by Pete Leeson (very good video.)
    Introduction: The Six Questions, and FAQ by Stefan Molyneux, added 6/04/11
    Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? by Murray Rothbard added 6/15/11
    What Are You Calling 'Anarchy'? by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    What It Means To Be an Anarcho-Capitalist by Stephan Kinsella added 6/16/11
    Market Anarchism: Are You Guys Crazy, or Just Nuts? by Stefan Molyneux added 6/16/11
    Anarchy, Government, and the State by Sentient Void added 6/28/11
    Privatize the Highways — and All Roads for That Matter by by Zachary Slayback added 8/03/11

    Anarchy,Law, and Security

    Chaos Theory (Private Law and Defense) by Bob Murphy added 6/09/11
    The Myth of the Rule of Law by John Hasnas
    Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Customary Law with Private Means of Resolving Disputes and Dispensing Justice: A Description of a Modern System of Law and Order without State Coercion by Bruce L. Benson
    Anarchism and the Public Goods Issue: Law, Courts, and the Police by David Osterfeld
    Justice Entrepreneurship In a Free Market by George H. Smith
    The Production of Security by Gustave de Molinari
    Defense Services on the Free Market by Murray Rothbard
    How Would An Anarchist Society Handle Child Abuse? by Walter Block
    But Wouldn't Warlords Take Over? by Robert P. Murphy
    Criminal Private Courts by Murray Rothbard (awesome video, 10 mins)
    Justice Without the State by Bruce L. Benson (short 3 min intro to private order)
    How a Free Society Prevents the Re-emergence of a Government by Stefan Molyneux
    The Stateless Society and the Protection of Children by Stefan Molyneux
    Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Outlaw Protectors by Murray Rothbard (text of Criminal Private Courts)
    Collective Defense by Stefan Molyneux
    Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella ( Audio Book ) added 6/15/11
    Polycentric Governance by Bruce L. Benson added 6/15/11
    Anarchy Unbound, Or: Why Self-Governance Works Better Than You Think by Pete Leeson added 6/15/11
    The Possibility of Private Law by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Law and Appeals in a Free Society by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Warring Defense Agencies and Organized Crime by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 6/15/11
    Private Defense Is No Laughing Matter By Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Legislation and Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    State or Private Law Society? by Hans-Hermann Hoppe added 6/21/11 (video)
    Answering the Warring Defense Agencies Objection by Murray Rothbard added 7/22/11
    Legislation and Objective Law by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 8/02/11
    The Market for Security by Robert Murphy (video) added 8/12/11
    Social Contract Debate: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3445947 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3447710 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3449042 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3452382 added 8/14/11

    Historical Examples

    Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government by Thomas Whiston
    The Mild, Mild West by John Tierney
    An American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West by Terry L. Anderson and P.J. Hill
    Ireland's Success with the Free Market and Anarchism from For a New Liberty, I think.
    Property Rights In Celtic Irish Law by Joseph R. Peden
    Pennsylvania's Anarchist Experiment: 1681-1690 by Murray Rothbard added 6/16/11

    Miscellaneous/Philosophy

    Living in a State-Run World by Murray Rothbard
    May a Libertarian Take Money From the Government? by Walter Block
    Is there a Human Right to Medical Insurance by Walter Block
    Hobbes, Minarchism, and Anarchy by Stephen Krogh (short audio, 12 mins)
    Anarchy and Democracy by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Taking Care of the Poor in a Free Society by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Mises Panel Discussion Live FAQ with Roderick Long, Walter Block, Jacob Huebert, Yuri Maltsev and Doug French (video)
    Wage Slavery by Stargazer5781 (video)
    The Immaculate Conception of the State by Murray Rothbard (The most important attempt in this century to rebut anarchism and to justify the State fails totally and in each of its parts.-Rothbard)
    Somalia by Pete Leeson (short video.)
    The Unconstitutionality of Slavery by Lysander Spooner added 6/10/11
    Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau added 6/10/11
    Vices Are Not Crimes by Lysander Spooner added 6/15/11
    Anarchy in Somalia by Bob P. Murphy added 6/30/11
    Understanding Somalia and Anarchy (1:10:00 to 1:32:00) by Peter Leeson (The whole presentation is great, highly recommended.) added 6/30/11
    The Tale of the Slave by Robert Nozick added 7/05/11
    The Inner Contradictions of the State by Murray Rothbard (video) added 8/10/11

    Various Informative Forum Discussions and Posts

    How might child abuse be handled in a stateless society? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Minarchists or Anarchists? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Some problematic scenarios (for anarchy) http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23271.aspx
    Two reputable courts producing different decisions http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Short FAQ (funding,children,roads) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3188946
    Dispute Resolution System in a Libertarian Society http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/21460.aspx
    Somalia, Criminal Courts, Anarchic Ireland http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3247815
    Help me understand anarcho-capitalism... (basically a FAQ thread) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cho-capitalism...
    Voluntary Law Society Questions Answered http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3425413 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3430302 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3431569 added 8/06/11
    Law Without Government http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...19.aspx#427619 and http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...46.aspx#427646 added 8/06/11

    Law without Government: Conflict Resolution in a Free Society

    How Could a Voluntary Society Function?

    The Jurisprudence Of Polycentric Law by Tom W. Bell (includes Historical examples of polycentric legal systems)

    Law Prior to the State (Polycentric Law) by Tom W. Bell

    Polycentric Law in the New Millennium by Tom W. Bell

    Customary Legal Systems with Voluntary Enforcement & The Rise of Authoritarian Law by Bruce L. Benson (from The Enterprise of Law)

    Voluntaryism and Protective Agencies in Historical Perspective

    Creating Monopolies that Control Us by Mary Ruwart (answered objection: monopolies in a voluntary market)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  14. #73

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Ah gawsh. When the youngsters start saying youngster, it's probably time to put me out to pasture. lolol.

    I keep forgetting that we've watched people basically grow up under the tent for the past 30 years or so. But that's a good thing, I suppose.

    You guys would've had fun in the 80s when a feller had to pound pavement the old fashioned way. No Internet, no smart phones, no nothing. Instant activism was unheard of. Only radio and newspapers and if your letter got through to the editor and printed, it was a small victory. Billboards were the memes of the day. lolol.
    LOL When you get to 35+ you officially get to start calling people youngster. At least, I've declared it so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  15. #74

    Default

    HA. "Natural Citizen'' is new to you.

    Granted, it's very easy to say that something has been 'covered' just because an opinion has been written down some place. Right? Of course it is.


    Here is the answer to the question. It is the only legitimate answer. And I'm sure that not one person on this board will disagree with me.


    Libertarianism permits for voluntary socialism so long as you're a libertarian and have renounced the use of force.


    That's the answer.


    To continue the thread in any way whatsoever is an exercise in redundancy.


    However, Individuals and groups of Individuals are free to make rules for themselves so long as other Individuals and other groups of Individuals aren't forced to do the same.


    Leave me alone, though.


    I opt out.


    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Meh, Krug is weaksauce like you. This subject has been covered many times since '08. I sometimes forget y'all are n00bs here, sorry.

    This was complied by our friend Wesker back in 2011. You should have read it long ago. (other people like Conza have compiled lists too, I just can't find them ATM)

    Mises.org media page. FREE BOOKS! added 7/27/11


    General/Introductions to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Antimarket Ethics: A Praxeological Critique by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard destroys many common criticisms against the market, absolutely a must read, for minarchists too.)
    The State is Not Great by Jacob Spinney (best video intro in existence. VERY GOOD.)
    Anarcho-Capitalist FAQ by Hogeye Bill
    The Obviousness of Anarchy by John Hasnas
    Evil Monopolies Are Fairy Tales In Free Markets by Jacob Spinney (great video)
    Fear of Monopoly by Brad Edmonds
    Monopolies by D.T. Armentano (In an economy free of governmental regulation, wouldn't a firm or group of firms obtain a monopoly over some vital resource or product?)
    The Myth of Natural Monopoly by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
    Taxes are the price we pay to... by Mike P (taxation, self ownership, democracy)
    What Is Anarchy? by Butler Shaffer
    What Libertarianism Is by Stephan Kinsella
    Disproving the State by Stefan Molyneux
    The Non-Aggression Axiom of Libertarianism by Walter Block
    The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists by Murray Rothbard
    The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives by Stefan Molyneux
    Introduction to a Stateless Society Introduction list with multiple articles and authors
    The Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard
    Society Without a State by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard defines the State and Anarchy here)
    Forget The Argument From Efficiency by Stefan Molyneux
    War, Peace, and the State by Murray Rothbard (philosophy on nukes here)
    Why We Couldn't Abolish Slavery Then and Can't Abolish Government Now by Robert Higgs
    Anarchy and the 'Problem of the Commons' by Stefan Molyneux
    Toward a Universal Libertarian Theory of Gun (Weapon) Control:a Spatial and Geographical Analysis by Walter Block (theory on nukes included)
    Arguments Against Anarchy by Jarret B. Wollstein (warring defense agencies)
    Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections by Roderick T. Long
    Objectivism and The State: An Open Letter to Ayn Rand by Roy A. Childs, Jr.
    Anarchism and Minarchism; No Rapproachment Possible: Reply to Tibor Machan by Walter Block
    Anarchy by Pete Leeson (very good video.)
    Introduction: The Six Questions, and FAQ by Stefan Molyneux, added 6/04/11
    Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? by Murray Rothbard added 6/15/11
    What Are You Calling 'Anarchy'? by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    What It Means To Be an Anarcho-Capitalist by Stephan Kinsella added 6/16/11
    Market Anarchism: Are You Guys Crazy, or Just Nuts? by Stefan Molyneux added 6/16/11
    Anarchy, Government, and the State by Sentient Void added 6/28/11
    Privatize the Highways — and All Roads for That Matter by by Zachary Slayback added 8/03/11

    Anarchy,Law, and Security

    Chaos Theory (Private Law and Defense) by Bob Murphy added 6/09/11
    The Myth of the Rule of Law by John Hasnas
    Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Customary Law with Private Means of Resolving Disputes and Dispensing Justice: A Description of a Modern System of Law and Order without State Coercion by Bruce L. Benson
    Anarchism and the Public Goods Issue: Law, Courts, and the Police by David Osterfeld
    Justice Entrepreneurship In a Free Market by George H. Smith
    The Production of Security by Gustave de Molinari
    Defense Services on the Free Market by Murray Rothbard
    How Would An Anarchist Society Handle Child Abuse? by Walter Block
    But Wouldn't Warlords Take Over? by Robert P. Murphy
    Criminal Private Courts by Murray Rothbard (awesome video, 10 mins)
    Justice Without the State by Bruce L. Benson (short 3 min intro to private order)
    How a Free Society Prevents the Re-emergence of a Government by Stefan Molyneux
    The Stateless Society and the Protection of Children by Stefan Molyneux
    Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Outlaw Protectors by Murray Rothbard (text of Criminal Private Courts)
    Collective Defense by Stefan Molyneux
    Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella ( Audio Book ) added 6/15/11
    Polycentric Governance by Bruce L. Benson added 6/15/11
    Anarchy Unbound, Or: Why Self-Governance Works Better Than You Think by Pete Leeson added 6/15/11
    The Possibility of Private Law by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Law and Appeals in a Free Society by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Warring Defense Agencies and Organized Crime by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 6/15/11
    Private Defense Is No Laughing Matter By Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Legislation and Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    State or Private Law Society? by Hans-Hermann Hoppe added 6/21/11 (video)
    Answering the Warring Defense Agencies Objection by Murray Rothbard added 7/22/11
    Legislation and Objective Law by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 8/02/11
    The Market for Security by Robert Murphy (video) added 8/12/11
    Social Contract Debate: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3445947 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3447710 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3449042 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3452382 added 8/14/11

    Historical Examples

    Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government by Thomas Whiston
    The Mild, Mild West by John Tierney
    An American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West by Terry L. Anderson and P.J. Hill
    Ireland's Success with the Free Market and Anarchism from For a New Liberty, I think.
    Property Rights In Celtic Irish Law by Joseph R. Peden
    Pennsylvania's Anarchist Experiment: 1681-1690 by Murray Rothbard added 6/16/11

    Miscellaneous/Philosophy

    Living in a State-Run World by Murray Rothbard
    May a Libertarian Take Money From the Government? by Walter Block
    Is there a Human Right to Medical Insurance by Walter Block
    Hobbes, Minarchism, and Anarchy by Stephen Krogh (short audio, 12 mins)
    Anarchy and Democracy by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Taking Care of the Poor in a Free Society by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Mises Panel Discussion Live FAQ with Roderick Long, Walter Block, Jacob Huebert, Yuri Maltsev and Doug French (video)
    Wage Slavery by Stargazer5781 (video)
    The Immaculate Conception of the State by Murray Rothbard (The most important attempt in this century to rebut anarchism and to justify the State fails totally and in each of its parts.-Rothbard)
    Somalia by Pete Leeson (short video.)
    The Unconstitutionality of Slavery by Lysander Spooner added 6/10/11
    Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau added 6/10/11
    Vices Are Not Crimes by Lysander Spooner added 6/15/11
    Anarchy in Somalia by Bob P. Murphy added 6/30/11
    Understanding Somalia and Anarchy (1:10:00 to 1:32:00) by Peter Leeson (The whole presentation is great, highly recommended.) added 6/30/11
    The Tale of the Slave by Robert Nozick added 7/05/11
    The Inner Contradictions of the State by Murray Rothbard (video) added 8/10/11

    Various Informative Forum Discussions and Posts

    How might child abuse be handled in a stateless society? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Minarchists or Anarchists? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Some problematic scenarios (for anarchy) http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23271.aspx
    Two reputable courts producing different decisions http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Short FAQ (funding,children,roads) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3188946
    Dispute Resolution System in a Libertarian Society http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/21460.aspx
    Somalia, Criminal Courts, Anarchic Ireland http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3247815
    Help me understand anarcho-capitalism... (basically a FAQ thread) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cho-capitalism...
    Voluntary Law Society Questions Answered http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3425413 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3430302 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3431569 added 8/06/11
    Law Without Government http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...19.aspx#427619 and http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...46.aspx#427646 added 8/06/11

    Law without Government: Conflict Resolution in a Free Society

    How Could a Voluntary Society Function?

    The Jurisprudence Of Polycentric Law by Tom W. Bell (includes Historical examples of polycentric legal systems)

    Law Prior to the State (Polycentric Law) by Tom W. Bell

    Polycentric Law in the New Millennium by Tom W. Bell

    Customary Legal Systems with Voluntary Enforcement & The Rise of Authoritarian Law by Bruce L. Benson (from The Enterprise of Law)

    Voluntaryism and Protective Agencies in Historical Perspective

    Creating Monopolies that Control Us by Mary Ruwart (answered objection: monopolies in a voluntary market)
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-23-2017 at 10:14 PM.

    Carpe Diem!

  16. #75

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Meh, Krug is weaksauce like you. This subject has been covered many times since '08. I sometimes forget y'all are n00bs here, sorry.

    This was complied by our friend Wesker back in 2011. You should have read it long ago. (other people like Conza have compiled lists too, I just can't find them ATM)

    Mises.org media page. FREE BOOKS! added 7/27/11


    General/Introductions to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Antimarket Ethics: A Praxeological Critique by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard destroys many common criticisms against the market, absolutely a must read, for minarchists too.)
    The State is Not Great by Jacob Spinney (best video intro in existence. VERY GOOD.)
    Anarcho-Capitalist FAQ by Hogeye Bill
    The Obviousness of Anarchy by John Hasnas
    Evil Monopolies Are Fairy Tales In Free Markets by Jacob Spinney (great video)
    Fear of Monopoly by Brad Edmonds
    Monopolies by D.T. Armentano (In an economy free of governmental regulation, wouldn't a firm or group of firms obtain a monopoly over some vital resource or product?)
    The Myth of Natural Monopoly by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
    Taxes are the price we pay to... by Mike P (taxation, self ownership, democracy)
    What Is Anarchy? by Butler Shaffer
    What Libertarianism Is by Stephan Kinsella
    Disproving the State by Stefan Molyneux
    The Non-Aggression Axiom of Libertarianism by Walter Block
    The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists by Murray Rothbard
    The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives by Stefan Molyneux
    Introduction to a Stateless Society Introduction list with multiple articles and authors
    The Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard
    Society Without a State by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard defines the State and Anarchy here)
    Forget The Argument From Efficiency by Stefan Molyneux
    War, Peace, and the State by Murray Rothbard (philosophy on nukes here)
    Why We Couldn't Abolish Slavery Then and Can't Abolish Government Now by Robert Higgs
    Anarchy and the 'Problem of the Commons' by Stefan Molyneux
    Toward a Universal Libertarian Theory of Gun (Weapon) Control:a Spatial and Geographical Analysis by Walter Block (theory on nukes included)
    Arguments Against Anarchy by Jarret B. Wollstein (warring defense agencies)
    Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections by Roderick T. Long
    Objectivism and The State: An Open Letter to Ayn Rand by Roy A. Childs, Jr.
    Anarchism and Minarchism; No Rapproachment Possible: Reply to Tibor Machan by Walter Block
    Anarchy by Pete Leeson (very good video.)
    Introduction: The Six Questions, and FAQ by Stefan Molyneux, added 6/04/11
    Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? by Murray Rothbard added 6/15/11
    What Are You Calling 'Anarchy'? by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    What It Means To Be an Anarcho-Capitalist by Stephan Kinsella added 6/16/11
    Market Anarchism: Are You Guys Crazy, or Just Nuts? by Stefan Molyneux added 6/16/11
    Anarchy, Government, and the State by Sentient Void added 6/28/11
    Privatize the Highways — and All Roads for That Matter by by Zachary Slayback added 8/03/11

    Anarchy,Law, and Security

    Chaos Theory (Private Law and Defense) by Bob Murphy added 6/09/11
    The Myth of the Rule of Law by John Hasnas
    Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Customary Law with Private Means of Resolving Disputes and Dispensing Justice: A Description of a Modern System of Law and Order without State Coercion by Bruce L. Benson
    Anarchism and the Public Goods Issue: Law, Courts, and the Police by David Osterfeld
    Justice Entrepreneurship In a Free Market by George H. Smith
    The Production of Security by Gustave de Molinari
    Defense Services on the Free Market by Murray Rothbard
    How Would An Anarchist Society Handle Child Abuse? by Walter Block
    But Wouldn't Warlords Take Over? by Robert P. Murphy
    Criminal Private Courts by Murray Rothbard (awesome video, 10 mins)
    Justice Without the State by Bruce L. Benson (short 3 min intro to private order)
    How a Free Society Prevents the Re-emergence of a Government by Stefan Molyneux
    The Stateless Society and the Protection of Children by Stefan Molyneux
    Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Outlaw Protectors by Murray Rothbard (text of Criminal Private Courts)
    Collective Defense by Stefan Molyneux
    Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella ( Audio Book ) added 6/15/11
    Polycentric Governance by Bruce L. Benson added 6/15/11
    Anarchy Unbound, Or: Why Self-Governance Works Better Than You Think by Pete Leeson added 6/15/11
    The Possibility of Private Law by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Law and Appeals in a Free Society by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Warring Defense Agencies and Organized Crime by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 6/15/11
    Private Defense Is No Laughing Matter By Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Legislation and Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    State or Private Law Society? by Hans-Hermann Hoppe added 6/21/11 (video)
    Answering the Warring Defense Agencies Objection by Murray Rothbard added 7/22/11
    Legislation and Objective Law by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 8/02/11
    The Market for Security by Robert Murphy (video) added 8/12/11
    Social Contract Debate: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3445947 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3447710 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3449042 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3452382 added 8/14/11

    Historical Examples

    Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government by Thomas Whiston
    The Mild, Mild West by John Tierney
    An American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West by Terry L. Anderson and P.J. Hill
    Ireland's Success with the Free Market and Anarchism from For a New Liberty, I think.
    Property Rights In Celtic Irish Law by Joseph R. Peden
    Pennsylvania's Anarchist Experiment: 1681-1690 by Murray Rothbard added 6/16/11

    Miscellaneous/Philosophy

    Living in a State-Run World by Murray Rothbard
    May a Libertarian Take Money From the Government? by Walter Block
    Is there a Human Right to Medical Insurance by Walter Block
    Hobbes, Minarchism, and Anarchy by Stephen Krogh (short audio, 12 mins)
    Anarchy and Democracy by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Taking Care of the Poor in a Free Society by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Mises Panel Discussion Live FAQ with Roderick Long, Walter Block, Jacob Huebert, Yuri Maltsev and Doug French (video)
    Wage Slavery by Stargazer5781 (video)
    The Immaculate Conception of the State by Murray Rothbard (The most important attempt in this century to rebut anarchism and to justify the State fails totally and in each of its parts.-Rothbard)
    Somalia by Pete Leeson (short video.)
    The Unconstitutionality of Slavery by Lysander Spooner added 6/10/11
    Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau added 6/10/11
    Vices Are Not Crimes by Lysander Spooner added 6/15/11
    Anarchy in Somalia by Bob P. Murphy added 6/30/11
    Understanding Somalia and Anarchy (1:10:00 to 1:32:00) by Peter Leeson (The whole presentation is great, highly recommended.) added 6/30/11
    The Tale of the Slave by Robert Nozick added 7/05/11
    The Inner Contradictions of the State by Murray Rothbard (video) added 8/10/11

    Various Informative Forum Discussions and Posts

    How might child abuse be handled in a stateless society? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Minarchists or Anarchists? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Some problematic scenarios (for anarchy) http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23271.aspx
    Two reputable courts producing different decisions http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Short FAQ (funding,children,roads) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3188946
    Dispute Resolution System in a Libertarian Society http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/21460.aspx
    Somalia, Criminal Courts, Anarchic Ireland http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3247815
    Help me understand anarcho-capitalism... (basically a FAQ thread) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cho-capitalism...
    Voluntary Law Society Questions Answered http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3425413 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3430302 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3431569 added 8/06/11
    Law Without Government http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...19.aspx#427619 and http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...46.aspx#427646 added 8/06/11

    Law without Government: Conflict Resolution in a Free Society

    How Could a Voluntary Society Function?

    The Jurisprudence Of Polycentric Law by Tom W. Bell (includes Historical examples of polycentric legal systems)

    Law Prior to the State (Polycentric Law) by Tom W. Bell

    Polycentric Law in the New Millennium by Tom W. Bell

    Customary Legal Systems with Voluntary Enforcement & The Rise of Authoritarian Law by Bruce L. Benson (from The Enterprise of Law)

    Voluntaryism and Protective Agencies in Historical Perspective

    Creating Monopolies that Control Us by Mary Ruwart (answered objection: monopolies in a voluntary market)
    Since I obviously can't digest all of that material in a short period of time I will quote from the first one I looked at:

    https://mises.org/library/arguments-against-anarchy

    Once one gets past Miss Rand's typically vitriolic rhetoric (which only indicates that Miss Rand is quite hostile to what she mislabels as "competing governments") one finds that she has essentially one argument. Miss Rand asserts that what is properly designated as "competing agencies of retaliatory force" or a free market of justice would not work, because the competing agencies would end up protecting criminals and shooting it out with each other. One can only term this a straw man argument.

    The situation which Miss Rand "describes" is patently absurd. If competing agencies of retaliatory force protected criminals, they would not be competing agencies of retaliatory force at all. Rather, they would be criminal gangs, plain and simple.
    Further, it would be sheer insanity for individuals "subscribing" to competing criminal gangs to live on the same "turf." In this respect, Miss Rand is correct. However, what I and every other advocate of a society without coercion are advocating are not "competing governments" (a misnomer) or "competing criminal gangs" (an ethical monstrosity), but "competing agencies of retaliatory force," which Miss Rand has in fact not dealt with at all.
    In the situation described above, in which neighbors subscribed to competing police departments, what is certain (if they were in fact police departments operating on the basis of objective law, rather than criminal gangs operating on the basis of mob rule — which is what Miss Rand described) is that Police B would accept the validity of Police A, or in fact the validity of any reputable police department, and cooperate with them in the arrest of Mr. Jones. Police B certainly would not protect Mr. Jones from justice if there was objective evidence that Mr. Jones had committed a crime, nor would Police A proceed to attempt to arrest Mr. Jones unless there were such evidence. In this manner, objective law would eliminate coercive "shootouts."

    Once competing police departments begin to function, standard operating procedures would be created to deal with such cases. At least two possible procedures come to mind: either by stipulation, the police department to which a man subscribed would be the only one which could incarcerate him; or, by stipulation, the police department where the complaint was filed would incarcerate him.
    In the extreme, there would be little motivation for policemen to put their lives on the line for a suspected thief, and if competing police departments operated as Miss Rand falsely pictures, then they would quickly go out of business due to the attrition rate of policemen killed in the "line of duty."
    This is only one of the flaws of Miss Rand's argument. Other problems include her failure to explain exactly how government can morally outlaw competing agencies of retaliatory force, or what it is that prevents the state police from shooting it out with the county police in similar situations. Clearly, both Miss Rand's premises and logic are in error in this case.
    If this scenario came to pass the various "competing" agencies would have formed a cartel, they would no longer be competing and the benefits of competition would disappear, also the possibility that they would be corrupted by their customers is simply hand-waived away and it is asserted that attrition would cause them to go out of business, it would only do so to the losers the winner in the "war" would simply establish a state.



    As far as ancient Iceland goes their anarchy was a balance of blood-feuds, there was no justice, eventually five great power factions emerged and threatened to start civil war for total control, so the people voluntarily submitted to the king of Norway to have a single central authority to settle disputes and prevent bloodshed.


    I may continue to read some of the sources you cited as I find it convenient, but if they are all as sophomoric as the one I quoted I won't finish the list.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 09-23-2017 at 11:02 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #76

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Since I obviously can't digest all of that material in a short period of time I will quote from the first one I looked at:

    https://mises.org/library/arguments-against-anarchy



    If this scenario came to pass the various "competing" agencies would have formed a cartel, they would no longer be competing and the benefits of competition would disappear, also the possibility that they would be corrupted by their customers is simply hand-waived away and it is asserted that attrition would cause them to go out of business, it would only do so to the losers the winner in the "war" would simply establish a state.
    You make the same errors as everyday variety lefty libs when they argue against laissez-faire capitalism. This suggests to me a desperation on your part to discredit the author or ignorance of capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    As far as ancient Iceland goes their anarchy was a balance of blood-feuds, there was no justice, eventually five great power factions emerged and threatened to start civil war for total control, so the people voluntarily submitted to the king of Norway to have a single central authority to settle disputes and prevent bloodshed.


    I may continue to read some of the sources you cited as I find it convenient, but if they are all as sophomoric as the one I quoted I won't finish the list.
    WRT your point about Iceland,
    Iceland collapsed in the year 1262, 290 years after it was founded. Roderick Long points out that it only took 85 years for the United States to have its first civil war. That Iceland lasted so long is impressive. The collapse did not occur until after almost three centuries of relatively peaceful living had gone by. Roderick T. Long states, "We should be cautious in labeling as a failure a political experiment that flourished longer than the United States has even existed."
    https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-government
    Do take your time reading.but till you're done and can make citations with your claims, don't expect me to take you seriously.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 09-23-2017 at 11:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao! on ignore till 11/1-Natural Citizen

  18. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    I may continue to read some of the sources you cited as I find it convenient, but if they are all as sophomoric as the one I quoted I won't finish the list.

    As an aside, I am quite familiar with the work of that author outside of libertarianism. It is laughable that the Mises Institute publishes someone like that. I have no idea how he is not in jail. At one point he was the go to guy for the biggest pump and dump stock scams around. I haven't seen his name as much lately. Running promotional mailers for pink sheet stock scams seems to be the go to occupation for a lot prominent ancaps. I can think of 4 off the top of my head.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 09-23-2017 at 11:32 PM.

  19. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You make the same errors as everyday variety lefty libs when they argue against laissez-faire capitalism. This suggests to me a desperation on your part to discredit the author or ignorance of capitalism.
    What errors? Can you explain where I am wrong?



    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    WRT your point about Iceland,

    Iceland collapsed in the year 1262, 290 years after it was founded. Roderick Long points out that it only took 85 years for the United States to have its first civil war. That Iceland lasted so long is impressive. The collapse did not occur until after almost three centuries of relatively peaceful living had gone by. Roderick T. Long states, "We should be cautious in labeling as a failure a political experiment that flourished longer than the United States has even existed."
    https://mises.org/library/medieval-i...nce-government
    They did not have "relatively peaceful living", they had the law of the jungle, a balance of terror, if you and your family and friends were numerous and strong enough you could do whatever you wanted as long as it was not so outrageous that the entire community turned against you, if you were few and weak you had to suffer the injustices of others to avoid being killed, they also benefited from being culturally homogeneous because of their isolation, something that open borders Anarchists would not allow.


    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Do take your time reading.but till you're done and can make citations with your claims, don't expect me to take you seriously.
    Don't expect me to take you seriously until you can explain what would prevent corruption and tyranny in your system, competition can't prevent the use of force to steal and conquer.



    I have had my fill of this debate for now so I most likely won't respond further.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    As an aside, I am quite familiar with the work of that author outside of libertarianism. It is laughable that the Mises Institute publishes someone like that. I have no idea how he is not in jail. At one point he was the go to guy for the biggest pump and dump stock scams around. I haven't seen his name as much lately. Running promotional mailers for pink sheet stock scams seems to be the go to occupation for a lot prominent ancaps. I can think of 4 off the top of my head.
    So when he is not selling one con-job he is selling another, why am I not surprised?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Meh, Krug is weaksauce like you. This subject has been covered many times since '08. I sometimes forget y'all are n00bs here, sorry.

    This was complied by our friend Wesker back in 2011. You should have read it long ago. (other people like Conza have compiled lists too, I just can't find them ATM)

    Mises.org media page. FREE BOOKS! added 7/27/11


    General/Introductions to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Antimarket Ethics: A Praxeological Critique by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard destroys many common criticisms against the market, absolutely a must read, for minarchists too.)
    The State is Not Great by Jacob Spinney (best video intro in existence. VERY GOOD.)
    Anarcho-Capitalist FAQ by Hogeye Bill
    The Obviousness of Anarchy by John Hasnas
    Evil Monopolies Are Fairy Tales In Free Markets by Jacob Spinney (great video)
    Fear of Monopoly by Brad Edmonds
    Monopolies by D.T. Armentano (In an economy free of governmental regulation, wouldn't a firm or group of firms obtain a monopoly over some vital resource or product?)
    The Myth of Natural Monopoly by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
    Taxes are the price we pay to... by Mike P (taxation, self ownership, democracy)
    What Is Anarchy? by Butler Shaffer
    What Libertarianism Is by Stephan Kinsella
    Disproving the State by Stefan Molyneux
    The Non-Aggression Axiom of Libertarianism by Walter Block
    The Death Wish of the Anarcho-Communists by Murray Rothbard
    The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives by Stefan Molyneux
    Introduction to a Stateless Society Introduction list with multiple articles and authors
    The Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard
    Society Without a State by Murray Rothbard (Rothbard defines the State and Anarchy here)
    Forget The Argument From Efficiency by Stefan Molyneux
    War, Peace, and the State by Murray Rothbard (philosophy on nukes here)
    Why We Couldn't Abolish Slavery Then and Can't Abolish Government Now by Robert Higgs
    Anarchy and the 'Problem of the Commons' by Stefan Molyneux
    Toward a Universal Libertarian Theory of Gun (Weapon) Control:a Spatial and Geographical Analysis by Walter Block (theory on nukes included)
    Arguments Against Anarchy by Jarret B. Wollstein (warring defense agencies)
    Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections by Roderick T. Long
    Objectivism and The State: An Open Letter to Ayn Rand by Roy A. Childs, Jr.
    Anarchism and Minarchism; No Rapproachment Possible: Reply to Tibor Machan by Walter Block
    Anarchy by Pete Leeson (very good video.)
    Introduction: The Six Questions, and FAQ by Stefan Molyneux, added 6/04/11
    Are Libertarians "Anarchists"? by Murray Rothbard added 6/15/11
    What Are You Calling 'Anarchy'? by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    What It Means To Be an Anarcho-Capitalist by Stephan Kinsella added 6/16/11
    Market Anarchism: Are You Guys Crazy, or Just Nuts? by Stefan Molyneux added 6/16/11
    Anarchy, Government, and the State by Sentient Void added 6/28/11
    Privatize the Highways — and All Roads for That Matter by by Zachary Slayback added 8/03/11

    Anarchy,Law, and Security

    Chaos Theory (Private Law and Defense) by Bob Murphy added 6/09/11
    The Myth of the Rule of Law by John Hasnas
    Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Customary Law with Private Means of Resolving Disputes and Dispensing Justice: A Description of a Modern System of Law and Order without State Coercion by Bruce L. Benson
    Anarchism and the Public Goods Issue: Law, Courts, and the Police by David Osterfeld
    Justice Entrepreneurship In a Free Market by George H. Smith
    The Production of Security by Gustave de Molinari
    Defense Services on the Free Market by Murray Rothbard
    How Would An Anarchist Society Handle Child Abuse? by Walter Block
    But Wouldn't Warlords Take Over? by Robert P. Murphy
    Criminal Private Courts by Murray Rothbard (awesome video, 10 mins)
    Justice Without the State by Bruce L. Benson (short 3 min intro to private order)
    How a Free Society Prevents the Re-emergence of a Government by Stefan Molyneux
    The Stateless Society and the Protection of Children by Stefan Molyneux
    Pollution by Murray Rothbard
    Outlaw Protectors by Murray Rothbard (text of Criminal Private Courts)
    Collective Defense by Stefan Molyneux
    Against Intellectual Property by Stephan Kinsella ( Audio Book ) added 6/15/11
    Polycentric Governance by Bruce L. Benson added 6/15/11
    Anarchy Unbound, Or: Why Self-Governance Works Better Than You Think by Pete Leeson added 6/15/11
    The Possibility of Private Law by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Law and Appeals in a Free Society by Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Warring Defense Agencies and Organized Crime by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 6/15/11
    Private Defense Is No Laughing Matter By Robert P. Murphy added 6/15/11
    Legislation and Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society by Stephan Kinsella added 6/21/11
    State or Private Law Society? by Hans-Hermann Hoppe added 6/21/11 (video)
    Answering the Warring Defense Agencies Objection by Murray Rothbard added 7/22/11
    Legislation and Objective Law by Morris and Linda Tannehill added 8/02/11
    The Market for Security by Robert Murphy (video) added 8/12/11
    Social Contract Debate: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3445947 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3447710 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3449042 + http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3452382 added 8/14/11

    Historical Examples

    Medieval Iceland and the Absence of Government by Thomas Whiston
    The Mild, Mild West by John Tierney
    An American Experiment in Anarcho-Capitalism: The Not So Wild, Wild West by Terry L. Anderson and P.J. Hill
    Ireland's Success with the Free Market and Anarchism from For a New Liberty, I think.
    Property Rights In Celtic Irish Law by Joseph R. Peden
    Pennsylvania's Anarchist Experiment: 1681-1690 by Murray Rothbard added 6/16/11

    Miscellaneous/Philosophy

    Living in a State-Run World by Murray Rothbard
    May a Libertarian Take Money From the Government? by Walter Block
    Is there a Human Right to Medical Insurance by Walter Block
    Hobbes, Minarchism, and Anarchy by Stephen Krogh (short audio, 12 mins)
    Anarchy and Democracy by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Taking Care of the Poor in a Free Society by Stefan Molyneux (video)
    Mises Panel Discussion Live FAQ with Roderick Long, Walter Block, Jacob Huebert, Yuri Maltsev and Doug French (video)
    Wage Slavery by Stargazer5781 (video)
    The Immaculate Conception of the State by Murray Rothbard (The most important attempt in this century to rebut anarchism and to justify the State fails totally and in each of its parts.-Rothbard)
    Somalia by Pete Leeson (short video.)
    The Unconstitutionality of Slavery by Lysander Spooner added 6/10/11
    Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau added 6/10/11
    Vices Are Not Crimes by Lysander Spooner added 6/15/11
    Anarchy in Somalia by Bob P. Murphy added 6/30/11
    Understanding Somalia and Anarchy (1:10:00 to 1:32:00) by Peter Leeson (The whole presentation is great, highly recommended.) added 6/30/11
    The Tale of the Slave by Robert Nozick added 7/05/11
    The Inner Contradictions of the State by Murray Rothbard (video) added 8/10/11

    Various Informative Forum Discussions and Posts

    How might child abuse be handled in a stateless society? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Minarchists or Anarchists? http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Some problematic scenarios (for anarchy) http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23271.aspx
    Two reputable courts producing different decisions http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/...px?PageIndex=1
    Short FAQ (funding,children,roads) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3188946
    Dispute Resolution System in a Libertarian Society http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/21460.aspx
    Somalia, Criminal Courts, Anarchic Ireland http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3247815
    Help me understand anarcho-capitalism... (basically a FAQ thread) http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cho-capitalism...
    Voluntary Law Society Questions Answered http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3425413 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3430302 and http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post3431569 added 8/06/11
    Law Without Government http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...19.aspx#427619 and http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/...46.aspx#427646 added 8/06/11

    Law without Government: Conflict Resolution in a Free Society

    How Could a Voluntary Society Function?

    The Jurisprudence Of Polycentric Law by Tom W. Bell (includes Historical examples of polycentric legal systems)

    Law Prior to the State (Polycentric Law) by Tom W. Bell

    Polycentric Law in the New Millennium by Tom W. Bell

    Customary Legal Systems with Voluntary Enforcement & The Rise of Authoritarian Law by Bruce L. Benson (from The Enterprise of Law)

    Voluntaryism and Protective Agencies in Historical Perspective

    Creating Monopolies that Control Us by Mary Ruwart (answered objection: monopolies in a voluntary market)
    Those days are over HB, what's left is what you see here. So many people simply don't come here anymore so now what's left are people espousing nonsense over and over with nobody left to refute them. I feel fortunate to have been here before it turned into this, even if it was the tail end of it.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

  22. #81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    HA. "Natural Citizen'' is new to you.

    Granted, it's very easy to say that something has been 'covered' just because an opinion has been written down some place. Right? Of course it is.


    Here is the answer to the question. It is the only legitimate answer. And I'm sure that not one person on this board will disagree with me.


    Libertarianism permits for voluntary socialism so long as you're a libertarian and have renounced the use of force.


    That's the answer.


    To continue the thread in any way whatsoever is an exercise in redundancy.


    However, Individuals and groups of Individuals are free to make rules for themselves so long as other Individuals and other groups of Individuals aren't forced to do the same.


    Leave me alone, though.


    I opt out.
    I disagree. I disagree with your use of the term voluntary socialism in relation to anarchism, this is entirely made up in your head with no basis in reality. You took something Ron said and twisted it into something he didn't say. You twisted the meaning, I don't know if you did intentionally or because you simply fail to understand.

    Libertarianism permits for voluntary socialism so long as you're a libertarian and have renounced the use of force.
    If you read the whole thing it's clear http://www.slobodaiprosperitet.tv/en/node/1101

    And what is your definition of libertarianism?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

  23. #82

    Default

    Definitions of
    socialism
    1
    n a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
    Types:
    Fabianism
    socialism to be established by gradual reforms within the law
    guild socialism
    a form of socialist theory advocating state ownership of industry but managements by guilds of workers
    utopian socialism
    socialism achieved by voluntary sacrifice
    Type of:
    ideology, political orientation, political theory
    an orientation that characterizes the thinking of a group or nation
    n an economic system based on state ownership of capital
    Synonyms:
    socialist economy
    Antonyms:
    capitalism, capitalist economy
    an economic system based on private ownership of capital
    Types:
    show 5 types...
    Type of:
    managed economy
    a non-market economy in which government intervention is important in allocating goods and resources and determining prices


    an∑ar∑chism
    ˈanərˌkizəm/Submit
    noun
    belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

  24. #83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Those days are over HB, what's left is what you see here. So many people simply don't come here anymore so now what's left are people espousing nonsense over and over with nobody left to refute them. I feel fortunate to have been here before it turned into this, even if it was the tail end of it.
    Well, I don't know what you mean by equating HB's list of works by various authors as "those days."

    We've always been for small, limited government as a platform. Limited for Liberty.

    We've not been ant-government as a platform so far as I can recall. If we have and I'm mistaken, then please tell me when that time was.

    That aside, let's take a look at HB's list. It contains works from a broad cast of authors. All of whom offer differing, varying, and most often contrary applications of an ideal. Now this presents a problem. I'll tell you why. It presents a problem because each and every one of those varying applications must be secured by a governmental body of some concoction which must be supported by both society as well as smart people. It's far more complex than just applying an ism to something and rolling with it. Each one of those varying applications of a single ism demand a tailored means of security. And in every case all you're doing is trading one State for another.

    The application of any ism (particularly with regard to securing it) is equally as important as said principles of the ism.

    I don;t agree with Hoppe, Rothbard, and sure as heck wouldn't even touch Stefan Molyneux wit ha 10 foot pole.

    I like Ludwig Von Mises. He did a great job at explaining the shortcomings in the applications of his counterparts. Which is not to minimize such authors as Rothbard and Hoppe. All contributed something to the ideal.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 08:09 AM.

    Carpe Diem!

  25. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I disagree. I disagree with your use of the term voluntary socialism in relation to anarchism, this is entirely made up in your head with no basis in reality. You took something Ron said and twisted it into something he didn't say. You twisted the meaning, I don't know if you did intentionally or because you simply fail to understand.



    If you read the whole thing it's clear http://www.slobodaiprosperitet.tv/en/node/1101
    Hm. I didn't even know they transcribed Ron's videos. But I don't need to read it.

    Let's start with the question that was asked of Ron by the facebook subscriber in that transcript.

    First question on anarchy: I want to go to this email, and this is from Nathan Kelly. And he emails in to you: would you agree that the best form of government is none at all Or put another way, the only legitimate form of governance is individual governance.

    Ron Paul: Well, I'm glad he put the last sentence on, because you always want government.



    Now let's go to the one I referenced...

    Lianna Brease on our Facebook page asks: I'm finding myself more distant from government involvement in general. Is it healthy to think like an anarchist or what are your views on anarchy?

    Ron Paul: I think if somebody is an anarchist and they totally believe in no government, and they don't use force at the moment to go and start shooting up the government so we don't have any government, that would be wrong, but to be an anarchist and assume responsibility for yourself, I think this is a great idea...A libertarian society actually gives full permission for socialism. Voluntary socialism. You know, if you want to get together, and there's been experiments with that in our history, you can have voluntary socialism. If you go together and you agree and we are running this community - large, small whatever - on a socialist scheme, you should be allowed to. But we should be allowed to stay out of that. But the problem is: it is so inefficient. That the socialists know their system is going to fail, so they have to use the force of the government gun to take money from the people who aren't socialists in order to subsidize their programs.

    Again, Origanalist, this is another instance where one must grasp application. Ron is applying a voluntary socialist society to anarchism by equating anarchism to voluntary socialism in his response to the lady's specific question about anarchism.

    And I'm certain the Ron is quite capable of understanding a question and responding with relevant, muliti-dimensional commentary. Which he did. He knows how to answer question without going off-topic.


    And what is your definition of libertarianism?
    Freedom from government-over-man.

    I accept Liberty-Responsiblility as an Indivisible whole, however. I reject the idea that they can be accepted and rejected piecemeal.

    I also believe that absent a belief in one's Divine Origin, there is no basis for one to expect that his rights are unalienable. Therefore he has no legitimate claim to their benefits. Both Liberty and Responsibility should always be accepted or rejected as an Indivisible whole.

    I share the precise sentiment echoed by Hamilton Abert Long in a great book that he wrote back in the latter half of the 20th century, ad I'll share a snip from it to same my some typing....

    For every right there is a correlative, inseparable duty. For every aspect of freedom there is a corresponding responsibility, so that it is always Right-Duty and Freedom-Responsibility, or Liberty-Responsibility. There is a duty, or responsibility, to God as the giver of these unalienable rights: a moral duty to keep secure and use soundly these gifts, with due respect for the equal rights of others and for the right of Posterity to their just heritage of liberty. Since this moral duty cannot be surrendered, bartered, given away, abandoned, delegated or otherwise alienated, so is the inseparable right likewise unalienable. This concept of rights being unalienable is thus dependent upon belief in God as the giver.

    This indicates the basis and the soundness of Jefferson's statement (1796 letter to John Adams): "If ever the morals of a people could be made the basis of their own government it is our case . . ."

    Made country simple, I define Libertarianism as freedom from government-over-man.

    Additionally, Libertine is not Libertarian. In fact, Libertine is patently contrary to Libertarian.

    What's yours?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 08:59 AM.

    Carpe Diem!

  26. #85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Definitions of
    socialism
    1
    n a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
    Types:
    Fabianism
    socialism to be established by gradual reforms within the law
    guild socialism
    a form of socialist theory advocating state ownership of industry but managements by guilds of workers
    utopian socialism
    socialism achieved by voluntary sacrifice
    Type of:
    ideology, political orientation, political theory
    an orientation that characterizes the thinking of a group or nation
    n an economic system based on state ownership of capital
    Synonyms:
    socialist economy
    Antonyms:
    capitalism, capitalist economy
    an economic system based on private ownership of capital
    Types:
    show 5 types...
    Type of:
    managed economy
    a non-market economy in which government intervention is important in allocating goods and resources and determining prices


    an∑ar∑chism
    ˈanərˌkizəm/Submit
    noun
    belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.
    Okay. You didn't really explain the differing modes of anarchy but I'll let you slide since it's a copypasta.

    Now. Add capitalism to the equation. Add economic security to the equation.

    Both are anti-capitalist. Yet both require economic security. Economic security demands servitude. Servitude is achieved by force of written rule or gun. It's just a given.

    Capitalism is organization. Anarchists (at least true to their principles anarchists) reject capitalism in whole (organization) because they recognize that some capitalist transactions are accomplished by force.

    To steal a quote from a good book on the topic, "It is a truism that government's power needs only to exist to be feared to be dominant, over the fear-ridden, without ever needing to be exercised aggressively."

    They're both socialist in true fundamental principle. Make no mistake, there will be a State. The very idea of economic security creates a State.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 09-24-2017 at 08:23 AM.

    Carpe Diem!

  27. #86

    Default

    Good Morning, O. Sorry.

    Carpe Diem!

  28. #87

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Okay. You didn't really explain the differing modes of anarchy but I'll let you slide since it's a copypasta.

    Now. Add capitalism to the equation. Add economic security to the equation.

    Both are anti-capitalist. Yet both require economic security. Economic security demands servitude. Servitude is achieved by force of written rule or gun. It's just a given.

    Capitalism is organization. Anarchists (at least true to their principles anarchists) reject capitalism in whole (organization) because they recognize that some capitalist transactions are accomplished by force.

    To steal a quote from a good book on the topic, "It is a truism that government's power needs only to exist to be feared to be dominant, over the fear-ridden, without ever needing to be exercised aggressively."

    They're both socialist in true fundamental principle. Make no mistake, there will be a State. The very idea of economic security creates a State.
    What? Try to make sense please. Economic security does not require servitude. Free trade is not servitude. Freely exchanging your labor for goods and property and vice versa is not servitude.

    What capitalist exchanges are accomplished by force?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

  29. #88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Hm. I didn't even know they transcribed Ron's videos. But I don;t need to read it.

    Let's start with the question that was asked of Ron by the facebook subscriber in that transcript.

    First question on anarchy: I want to go to this email, and this is from Nathan Kelly. And he emails in to you: would you agree that the best form of government is none at all Or put another way, the only legitimate form of governance is individual governance.

    Ron Paul: Well, I'm glad he put the last sentence on, because you always want government.


    Now let's go to the one I referenced.


    Lianna Brease on our Facebook page asks: I'm finding myself more distant from government involvement in general. Is it healthy to think like an anarchist or what are your views on anarchy?


    Ron Paul: I think if somebody is an anarchist and they totally believe in no government, and they don't use force at the moment to go and start shooting up the government so we don't have any government, that would be wrong, but to be an anarchist and assume responsibility for yourself, I think this is a great idea...A libertarian society actually gives full permission for socialism. Voluntary socialism. You know, if you want to get together, and there's been experiments with that in our history, you can have voluntary socialism. If you go together and you agree and we are running this community - large, small whatever - on a socialist scheme, you should be allowed to. But we should be allowed to stay out of that. But the problem is: it is so inefficient. That the socialists know their system is going to fail, so they have to use the force of the government gun to take money from the people who aren't socialists in order to subsidize their programs.

    Again, Origanalist, this is another instance where one must grasp application. Ron is applying a voluntary socialist society to anarchism by equating anarchism to voluntary socialism in his response to the lady's specific qustion about anarchism.




    Freedom from government-over-man.

    What's yours?
    That means anarchism which you are explicitly rejecting here so excuse me if I'm a tad confused.

    here is the full trascript, I'll let people draw their own conclusions, obviously I don't agree with you.

    Ron Paul on Anarchy
    Posted Fri, 19/09/2014 - 06:41 by Jadranko Brkic

    “That the socialists know their system is going to fail, so they have to use the force of the government gun to take money from the people who aren't socialists in order to subsidize their programs. Libertarianism gives full legal protection of anybody who wants to have voluntary socialism. But socialists never will endorse the idea of you having your personal liberty where you can take care of yourself and not ask for nothing from anybody else.” These are two excerpts from a 3-hour long “In Depth with Ron Paul” C-SPAN program, where a former Representative Ron Paul (R-TX) answered viewer questions about anarchy. Watch the full 3-hour In Depth with Ron Paul C-SPAN program about Dr. Paul's life and career here. The show ran on August 3, 2014. Source 1: Nate Kelly YouTube channel. Source 2: TheAnarchast YouTube channel. Translated by Jadranko Brkic.
    (see video at the bottom of transcript)
    Transcript:
    First question on anarchy:
    I want to go to this email, and this is from Nathan Kelly. And he emails in to you: would you agree that the best form of government is none at all Or put another way, the only legitimate form of governance is individual governance.
    Ron Paul:
    Well, I'm glad he put the last sentence on, because you always want government. Who should be the government? The perfect world, if we were all perfect people, there would only be self government. And our responsibility would be to ourselves, and that's what my goal is, to always move in that direction.
    Today, to be a participant in the debate and say that tomorrow we are going to get rid of every single government – well, if one person does it and nobody else does, that's not going to work. But I think we're moving to the age where governments are much less important, and I think we should. I think that people are realizing that governments mess up. I think the 20th century was such a horrible century that we are waking up to the fact that you can't trust government. You can't trust them to run the economy, you can't trust them to run the monetary system, you can't trust them to run foreign policy, I mean it's just a total disaster. So I think the least amount of government is the best.
    I do not call myself an anarchist, but I think to have the goal of self-government is a very good goal, and if you can't have that, then as close to home as possible. And I think that's a natural tendency to have individuals and family government, local community government. And if you had a free society, we probably wouldn't have more than that. And our founders intended that to be. You know, when they wrote the constitution, I think they planted some seeds there that have grown to the point where if the constitution had worked perfectly, we wouldn't have this monster over here in Washington. It wouldn't exist. But, all the regulations and details and taxation and abuse of rules and president writing
    laws and bashing the Congress for not speeding up, running executive orders and all this, that wouldn't be true. That is the trend that we have to reverse. I'm optimistic to think that we are changing the views of a new generation, the millennials are looking at this and they are seeing what they are inheriting. I think they see a mess and I think they are very open to the views of saying: yes, the biggest problem we have is way too-much government, too-much centralized government, and the more self-responsibility and self-government we have, the better.
    Second question on anarchy:
    Lianna Brease on our Facebook page asks:
    I'm finding myself more distant from government involvement in general. Is it healthy to think like an anarchist or what are your views on anarchy?
    Ron Paul:
    I think if somebody is an anarchist and they totally believe in no government, and they don't use force at the moment to go and start shooting up the government so we don't have any government, that would be wrong, but to be an anarchist and assume responsibility for yourself, I think this is a great idea. And there's a lot of people, there's a lot of very close friends of mine who think political action is terrible and worthless. I happen to be one that believes that education is probably paramount. But political action can be very helpful. And sometimes political action, my elections and things and galvanizing interest is a measurement of our success on our ideas. So I think this is very important. But anarchy is not harmful to me, as long as you especially if you are true libertarian, you've rejected the use of force, I don't have to worry about you.
    If you don't want to, your biggest problem of being an anarchist in the government that doesn't agree with you is that when I want to opt out they are going to come with guns. But you know, we do have instances where some people do get to opt out. When you think about the Amish and the Mennonites, I think they get exempt and ... they like to … Just think, those groups, why couldn't all of us have that opportunity? Look, we voluntarily want to get out and we want to take care of ourselves. Either an individual should be allowed to do that and get no benefits from the government, or a group can do this. A libertarian society actually gives full permission for socialism. Voluntary socialism. You know, if you want to get together, and there's been experiments with that in our history, you can have voluntary socialism. If you go together and you agree and we are running this community - large, small whatever - on a socialist scheme, you should be allowed to. But we should be allowed to stay out of that. But the problem is: it is so inefficient. That the socialists know their system is going to fail, so they have to use the force of the government gun to take money from the people who aren't socialists in order to subsidize their programs.
    Libertarianism gives full legal protection of anybody who wants to have voluntary socialism. But socialists never will endorse the idea of you having your personal liberty where you can take care of yourself and not ask for nothing from anybody else.
    Video:
    http://www.slobodaiprosperitet.tv/en/node/1101

    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

  30. #89

    Default

    There are only 3 arguments anyone can make against the feasibility of anarchy.

    1. It's never worked before.

    And depending on definitions, this may be true. Just like in the 1800s, moving vehicles that weren't powered by animals never worked before, and therefore were simply an unrealistic fantasy.

    2. I don't believe it can work.

    This isn't an argument; it's an opinion. And you are welcome to it. You believe that private defense contractors would gang up on their customers. You believe that people would form a state to protect them. You believe this. You believe that. Well, good for you, but that doesn't make this point any more valid. You could be completely wrong about how things would work out.

    3. Smart guy A used arguments 1 and 2.

    Lot's of smart people use the first two arguments, so they can't be wrong. Especially when people that preach anarchy haven't convinced me otherwise.
    Last edited by The Gold Standard; 09-24-2017 at 10:51 AM.

  31. #90

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I dunno.

    How would you enforce it?
    some sort of Authority, no doubt.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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