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Thread: Is the United States a Christian nation? Is there a separation of Church and State?

  1. #1

    Default Is the United States a Christian nation? Is there a separation of Church and State?

    Growing up as a Catholic (then later converting to Christianity) in suburban Middle America I was raised to believe that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. I recall my Baptist pastor once preaching that the United States was getting less and less Christian and as a result of no longer following Christian values (he brought up how Founding Fathers such as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson adhered to them) this country was on a decline. He went on to preach that the strong endorsement of Christianity was preserved by elected Presidents (bringing up FDR and Reagan as examples of "Great Christian Presidents" since they openly endorsed Christianity and did not acknowledge Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, nor Obama because they weren't "Christian enough" I reckon) and that this country is declining and headed towards a collapse due to society and elected officials no longer adhering to the Christian values that previous generations in America did.

    That said, I do have a quote from Founding Father John Adams from Article 11 in the Treaty of Tripoli that says otherwise:

    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp


    However, here is a quote from Supreme Court Justice Joseph back in 1892:

    “One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is, that Christianity is part of the Common Law, from which it seeks the sanction of its rights, and by which it endeavors to regulate its doctrines. . . There never has been a period, in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations.”


    https://christianheritagefellowship....ica-christian/


    A quote from Justice Brewer in his book "The United States: A Christian Nation" released in 1905:

    "But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian Nation—in fact, as the leading Christian Nation of the world. This popular use of the term certainly has significance. It is not a mere creation of the imagination. It is not a term of derision but has substantial basis—one which justifies its use."



    Thoughts?


    What about at the state level? Weren't laws such as anti-miscegenation laws done in the name of religion?

    Quote from a court ruling in Virginia back in 1965:

    "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay, and red, and placed them on separate continents, and but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend the races to mix."


    My pastor taught me that Jefferson wanted to keep the state out of the church. But there are 501c3 laws that the government has with churches and doesn't that violate Jefferson's principle?
    Lightbearers are immune to the judgment of man.



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  3. #2

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    The US was not really ever a real Christian nation and is less so now . Which explains a lot .Real Christians do not participate in slavery , genocides or any of the other countless atrocities committed here in just the 1700's and 1800's that were supported by large percentages of the population . The US was in fact a nation populated mostly by truly ignorant and unlearned peoples . Pretend Christians do not count . They are no different than now in the modern times the proud atheists .

  4. #3

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    While America is a country full of people who pay no real attention to the principals of Christ it has other things it seeks . The people here seek wealth . That is the real difference between a country like ours compared to say a marxist muslim nation like Iran where the state owns everything . There people worship someone and are poor and content in poverty, here people are mostly godless and do not wish to be poor . I will take this over that . This was a nation that needed no welfare . It was populated by tough , hard people who planned to work to get ahead. Now it is a nation of 60 percent work force participation chock full of welfare paid for by the three in ten of those who work and pay more tax than they receive. It was strong , now it is weak.

  5. #4

    Default

    America was as close to a Christian nation as any nation has ever been, it still is more Christian than most other nations, there has long been a movement to de-Christianize America and Europe it has made much progress.

    As for "separation of church and state" it only means that the government does not control churches or compel membership in one, it has also come to mean that no government establishes one although originally that was only a restriction on the feds.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5

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    Made for Protestants run by devil worshippers

    Please tell me why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).

    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide


    ^THAT^

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  7. #6

    Default

    Was America? No. Were the States? Several were Christian Countries. Theological debates in state legislatures of Maryland were ongoing, before they got tired of it all, some time mid-century. I think you only find State Churches among the original 13, however I'm not positive.

    https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html

    https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/09...ian-rebellion/

    Since Cromwell and most Roundheads were Calvinists, Presbys generally earned a bad rap, but the Covenanters first earned royalist suspicions. Presbyterian became pejorative for social and religious troublemakers. Hence the Revolution was occasionally called the Presbyterian war. Just remember, wars are fought by all sorts of people, for all sorts of reasons, behind which could be religious and secular conceits. There's no real dilemma for having many causes; when people want a war, they get their war.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-14-2017 at 08:34 PM.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    America was as close to a Christian nation as any nation has ever been, it still is more Christian than most other nations, there has long been a movement to de-Christianize America and Europe it has made much progress.

    As for "separation of church and state" it only means that the government does not control churches or compel membership in one, it has also come to mean that no government establishes one although originally that was only a restriction on the feds.
    More than Greece or Russia? You've got some 'splainin' to do, bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    More than Greece or Russia? You've got some 'splainin' to do, bud.
    I did not say "more than any" I said "as close as any".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I did not say "more than any" I said "as close as any".
    You'd still be wrong. Greece and Russia were still closer. The Orthodox Church in those countries were so strong you could safely assume anyone you met was a devout member till the communist revolution. And the patriarchs had srs influence over the politicians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao!

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You'd still be wrong. Greece and Russia were still closer. The Orthodox Church in those countries were so strong you could safely assume anyone you met was a devout member till the communist revolution. And the patriarchs had srs influence over the politicians.
    I am not going to argue with you about it, if you want to claim 1st prize for Greece and Russia and rate America at 2nd I don't care, I will let GOD hand out the trophies on judgement day, the point is early America was very devout and the churches were a strong influence in the culture and the politics.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I am not going to argue with you about it, if you want to claim 1st prize for Greece and Russia and rate America at 2nd I don't care, I will let GOD hand out the trophies on judgement day, the point is early America was very devout and the churches were a strong influence in the culture and the politics.
    It's not about "prizes", I was more interested in what's factually correct. You won't find me doubting the influence of religion in Murica (there were official state religion in the very early days), but Murica came to be in the Enlightenment from its Jeffersonian/Lockean roots and was thus influenced by secularism and moreso as time went on. Cheers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao!

  13. #12

    Default

    Greece wasn't a country until the 1800s. You wouldn't think they were Orthodox by looking at their nihilistic birth rates, you'd think they were secular (Atheists just don't breed) and had been for a while. If the metropolitans had any real powers, it was probably way back slightly before and during the revolution.

    However, I'm not conversant in EO ecclesiastical rule, to know what those powers were, or how much influence the church actually had on the Czars. Westerners look at all EO like they're Rasputin, so I don't know any trustworthy sources regarding their powers.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 09-15-2017 at 12:38 AM.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Greece wasn't a country until the 1800s. You wouldn't think they were Orthodox by looking at their nihilistic birth rates, you'd think they were secular (Atheists just don't breed) and had been for a while. If the metropolitans had any real powers, it was probably way back slightly before and during the revolution.

    However, I'm not conversant in EO ecclesiastical rule, to know what those powers were, or how much influence the church actually had on the Czars. Westerners look at all EO like they're Rasputin, so I don't know any trustworthy sources regarding their powers.
    This was Byzantine Greece: The Greek Patriarchate was "mainstream" by this period and wasn't being persecuted anymore like it had been in the first century. The borders of Greece changed a number of times in its history, as you probably know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao!

  15. #14

    Default

    When you said Greece, I thought you meant Greece.
    They fought the Wars
    They lost.
    They turned friends
    into enemies.
    Who became
    friends of our enemies.
    They stood alone, in splendid isolation,
    And said it was their only choice.

  16. #15

    Default

    This crap again.

    To the OP, you really should research your quote about America not being a Christian nation. It was an attempt to pacify the Muslim Barbary Pirates.

    As far as our Founders go, what they believed and what our country was founded on, a very nice and learned man, now deceased, spent a great deal of time posting said information in the forum's blog. I recommend highly you review it.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights






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