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Thread: The Truth About Meat and Dairy

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Right, but you know what I meant. It would instinctively understand that one is food and the other is...well, in the child's eyes, a friend.
    Not a valid comparison, it would need to be a rabbit and an apple tree in his crib, seen then which one it eats first. Smart money says neither. However, cook up that rabbit and slice up that apple see which one it eats first. Smart money say both.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    No. I was healthy. I just lived in a hippy town in '87, working at a ski slope and in the summer doing construction, where all the employees were Deadheads. Everyone else was doing it. So I gave it a go. Within six months it destroyed my health. And it's not like the food I learned to eat and prepare wasn't good. I'll still take it as a side dish today. lilymc, everyone is different. Everyone. I know people that one toke knocks them out and people that can, honestly, smoke a quarter and still claim to not be stoned. My body needs meat. Yours may not, but, mine does.
    Seems to be common among physically active males....

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Seems to be common among physically active males....
    They may think they do, but those physically active male bodies don't actually need meat, they need the nutrients they're getting from eating flesh, which they can get from non-animal products... that also happen to be healthier, cleaner, and of course don't involve cruelty and death.

    It seems to me that many guys believe eating meat is masculine and that not eating meat would somehow make them less masculine. I'm sorry, but that is silly, and it's absolutely untrue. I think it's just the result of years of conditioning, deeply ingrained traditions that may be hard to let go of. But truth should always be more important than tradition or what we want to believe. I hope you guys would agree with that.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  5. #64

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    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    He does it by eating over 60lbs of food every single day. They eat a lot of greens, nuts, seeds, bark, dirt, and insects. That's a lot of eating and a helluva lot of pooping.
    Also their digestive system can break down cellulose, ours doesn't. Not to mention they can synthesize amino acids that we cant. Bad example.

    Once again we get back to the fact that vegans want to turn humans into fat cows that sit around chewing cud and pooping all day.

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Not a valid comparison, it would need to be a rabbit and an apple tree in his crib, seen then which one it eats first. Smart money says neither. However, cook up that rabbit and slice up that apple see which one it eats first. Smart money say both.
    Let me try making the same point in a different way. We are conditioned to accept that eating animal flesh (a corpse) is natural. Kids love animals. I believe it's because that's how God created us, and it is society that conditions us to disconnect from that initial love for animals, as we are taught that some animals are to be loved (dogs, cats) and others are food (chickens, pigs, cows.)

    So let's go back to that previous example. If you put a rabbit in a child's crib, along with some fruit… And you asked the child if they wanted to eat the rabbit, explaining to them that the rabbit would have to be killed, or they can choose to eat the fruit, do you think the child would go for killing the rabbit? Keep in mind, I'm talking about a very young child, before his culture/ the people around him conditioned him to accept meat eating, hunting, etc.

    What do you think?

    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    He does it by eating over 60lbs of food every single day. They eat a lot of greens, nuts, seeds, bark, dirt, and insects. That's a lot of eating and a helluva lot of pooping.
    Also their digestive system can break down cellulose, ours doesn't. Not to mention they can synthesize amino acids that we cant. Bad example.

    Once again we get back to the fact that vegans want to turn humans into fat cows that sit around chewing cud and pooping all day.
    I don't eat all day (in fact, I often eat only twice a day) and I'm at the right weight for my height, and have no digestion problems. If anything, it is meat eaters (some, not all) that suffer from constipation or digestion issues, because they don't have enough fiber in their diet.

    ETA: I don't really want to argue about this anymore right now… And speaking of eating, I need to finish cooking my dinner and eat.. it's getting late.
    Last edited by lilymc; 09-12-2017 at 08:54 PM.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Let me try making the same point in a different way. We are conditioned to accept that eating animal flesh (a corpse) is natural. Kids love animals. I believe it's because that's how God created us, and it is society that conditions us to disconnect from that initial love for animals, as we are taught that some animals are to be loved (dogs, cats) and others are food (chickens, pigs, cows.)

    So let's go back to that previous example. If you put a rabbit in a child's crib, along with some fruit… And you asked the child if they wanted to eat the rabbit, explaining to them that the rabbit would have to be killed, or they can choose to eat the fruit, do you think the child would go for killing the rabbit? Keep in mind, I'm talking about a very young child, before his culture/ the people around him conditioned him to accept meat eating, hunting, etc.

    What do you think?
    1. We could just as well argue the subject of conditioning we receive during our youth that some animals are cute while others are not or are dangerous.

    2. It is not so much an issue entailing a love of animals as it is the utility of an animal, i.e., cats kill rodents and provide comfort, dogs are highly trainable, are natural defenders and early alert systems, then there are horses, mules, ox, etc., while other animals are just not worth the effort involved to consume or are of acquired taste, are unhealthy (too lean) for regular consumption, etc.

    3. Eating meat is natural, clearly our teeth and digestive system were designed to do so. We can as well observe and emulate this activity through the actions of animals throughout nature, omnivores, herbivores, or carnivores. Humans for example, cannot eat tree bark, drink from stagnant ponds, need to cook the majority of their food, endure the elements without shelter, or remain underwater for prolonged periods.

    4. Explain to the child the variety of tasty dishes they will be able to enjoy by including meat into their dietary habits, could even incorporate apples in those recipes for more tasty enjoyment and nutrition, and that if left unchecked their crib will be overrun with rabbits before they even realize the ramifications of their decision to go vegan.


    ETA:

    Question: Why is it okay for vegans to use pesticides in the growing of their precious crops just so that they can feed themselves? Why are vegans so unwilling to just simply share their crops (there is more than enough to grow around after all) with the local wildlife populations? Why do vegans willfully participate in the mass genocide of other sentient beings when they do not have to?

    --Hypocrisy thy name is veganism.
    Last edited by Weston White; 09-13-2017 at 01:36 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  10. #69

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    As a cross-reference I just finished writing a response to some YT putz named Vegan Gains in response to him and his "crew" attacking Roaming Millennium for a vegan video that she published several months ago (I only recently came across the videos.)

    Is a PDF at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/88ew0ftl3a...an_yt.pdf?dl=0


    ETA: In the above doc, I addressed the following issue, which calls into question such assertions, perhaps it is that plants do have intelligence or souls, just not by the same design as walking forms of life. Perhaps this is something that is still beyond our comprehension:

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Animals in the wild do a lot of things that obviously humans would never do… So as humans, wouldn't you agree that we should rise above our carnal nature and try to do what is right, as opposed to only what we want to do? We don't have to eat animals to live. It's unnecessary for most people, so it really just comes down to traditional/ habit/ taste.

    Plants do not have a brain or central nervous system. Plants were meant to be eaten (Genesis 1:29–30). I'm sure of that because it's obvious and intuitive that God gave us fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and other plant-based foods to eat… That is why they are here on this earth.

    I do not believe that God created sentient beings with a strong desire to live and with emotions and the ability to feel pain and love and joy and companionship… only to be treated horribly and then eaten. In fact, don't quote me on this, but it's very likely that the origin of meat eating was demonic. But that's getting into a whole other topic.
    Last edited by Weston White; 09-13-2017 at 11:17 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    They may think they do, but those physically active male bodies don't actually need meat, they need the nutrients they're getting from eating flesh, which they can get from non-animal products... that also happen to be healthier, cleaner, and of course don't involve cruelty and death.

    It seems to me that many guys believe eating meat is masculine and that not eating meat would somehow make them less masculine. I'm sorry, but that is silly, and it's absolutely untrue. I think it's just the result of years of conditioning, deeply ingrained traditions that may be hard to let go of. But truth should always be more important than tradition or what we want to believe. I hope you guys would agree with that.
    Every body is different and each one responds differently to what it ingests, to an extent...

    Whether or not suitable nutrition could be found in vegetable matter is a novel idea but it's certainly not practical...

    Much more practical would be to stop commercial farming of plants and animals in order to starve the cities to death, nothing good comes from them anyway...

  12. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    1. We could just as well argue the subject of conditioning we receive during our youth that some animals are cute while others are not or are dangerous.

    2. It is not so much an issue entailing a love of animals as it is the utility of an animal, i.e., cats kill rodents and provide comfort, dogs are highly trainable, are natural defenders and early alert systems, then there are horses, mules, ox, etc., while other animals are just not worth the effort involved to consume or are of acquired taste, are unhealthy (too lean) for regular consumption, etc.

    3. Eating meat is natural, clearly our teeth and digestive system were designed to do so. We can as well observe and emulate this activity through the actions of animals throughout nature, omnivores, herbivores, or carnivores. Humans for example, cannot eat tree bark, drink from stagnant ponds, need to cook the majority of their food, endure the elements without shelter, or remain underwater for prolonged periods.

    4. Explain to the child the variety of tasty dishes they will be able to enjoy by including meat into their dietary habits, could even incorporate apples in those recipes for more tasty enjoyment and nutrition, and that if left unchecked their crib will be overrun with rabbits before they even realize the ramifications of their decision to go vegan.


    ETA:

    Question: Why is it okay for vegans to use pesticides in the growing of their precious crops just so that they can feed themselves? Why are vegans so unwilling to just simply share their crops (there is more than enough to grow around after all) with the local wildlife populations? Why do vegans willfully participate in the mass genocide of other sentient beings when they do not have to?

    --Hypocrisy thy name is veganism.

    You're bringing up all sorts of other topics that really don't have anything to do with the question I asked you. And you didn't really answer my question. If we made kids completely aware of what happens to an animal in order for us to eat its corpse or secretions… Do you think that a young child would choose to kill the animal or play with it? Please answer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    As a cross-reference I just finished writing a response to some YT putz named Vegan Gains in response to him and his "crew" attacking Roaming Millennium for a vegan video that she published several months ago (I only recently came across the videos.)

    Is a PDF at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/88ew0ftl3a...an_yt.pdf?dl=0


    ETA: In the above doc, I addressed the following issue, which calls into question such assertions, perhaps it is that plants do have intelligence or souls, just not by the same design as walking forms of life. Perhaps this is something that is still beyond our comprehension:
    I don't want to be rude, but I have to be honest. Of all the objections to veganism, the absolute worst and dumbest of all is the "but plants have feelings too" line. If someone were to make a list, I think that one would be at the very, very bottom.

    As I said earlier, it is self-evident and obvious that fruits, vegetables, etc. are food for us, put here by God. (Or nature, to an atheist)

    Would a kind, loving God create fruits and vegetables with the ability to feel pain and suffer… if their purpose was to be eaten?

    Would a kind loving God create animals with the ability to feel pain, joy, love, maternal instinct, companionship, playfulness, and a strong desire to live… if their purpose was to be enslaved, abused, tortured, and then have their throats slit so they can be our food?

    An apple doesn't scream when you slice it. I don't think one even has to be a Christian to figure this out, it's just common sense… Which is God's desire for us to eat: healthy food from the ground which He stated in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible was our food… Or “food" that screams in pain and suffers immensely because it is an intelligent, sentient being that has many of the same desires we do? If you can avoid causing pain and suffering, why wouldn't you?
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Every body is different and each one responds differently to what it ingests, to an extent...

    Whether or not suitable nutrition could be found in vegetable matter is a novel idea but it's certainly not practical...

    Much more practical would be to stop commercial farming of plants and animals in order to starve the cities to death, nothing good comes from them anyway...
    It's not that difficult to learn that nutrients can be found in many, many different non-animal sources. And I know how you feel about the cities, but I disagree that the plan you have in mind would be more practical.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  14. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    You're bringing up all sorts of other topics that really don't have anything to do with the question I asked you. And you didn't really answer my question. If we made kids completely aware of what happens to an animal in order for us to eat its corpse or secretions… Do you think that a young child would choose to kill the animal or play with it? Please answer.
    Children are incapable of caring for themselves, they will grab a hot pot, iron or grill, they will put things like bugs or broken glass into their mouth, they will eat pet food, etc.

    Well, I did answer your question, it is just that you made an argument on the preconditioning of children, by using a precondition--that certain animals are fluffy and cute so they should be left unharmed. So what about black widows, scorpions, mambas, constrictors, rattlers, cobras, garden snakes, or Harambe?

    [QUOTE=lilymc;6524507]I don't want to be rude, but I have to be honest. Of all the objections to veganism, the absolute worst and dumbest of all is the "but plants have feelings too" line. If someone were to make a list, I think that one would be at the very, very bottom.

    Oh not so fast there: https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-...k-about-plants

    And we assume you need ears to hear. But researchers, says Pollan, have played a recording of a caterpillar munching on a leaf to plants — and the plants react. They begin to secrete defensive chemicals — even though the plant isn't really threatened, Pollan says. "It is somehow hearing what is, to it, a terrifying sound of a caterpillar munching on its leaves."

    Pollan says plants have all the same senses as humans, and then some. In addition to hearing, taste, for example, they can sense gravity, the presence of water, or even feel that an obstruction is in the way of its roots, before coming into contact with it. Plant roots will shift direction, he says, to avoid obstacles.

    So what about pain? Do plants feel? Pollan says they do respond to anesthetics. "You can put a plant out with a human anesthetic. ... And not only that, plants produce their own compounds that are anesthetic to us." But scientists are reluctant to go as far as to say they are responding to pain.

    How plants sense and react is still somewhat unknown. They don't have nerve cells like humans, but they do have a system for sending electrical signals and even produce neurotransmitters, like dopamine, serotonin and other chemicals the human brain uses to send signals.
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    As I said earlier, it is self-evident and obvious that fruits, vegetables, etc. are food for us, put here by God. (Or nature, to an atheist)
    Okay, and so were animals as part of the Earthly ecosystem, for productivity in their own useful ways, including sustenance. It is in the Old Testament:

    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...Peace-Offering
    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...Peace-Offering
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...h=Leviticus+11
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Deuteronomy+16

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Would a kind, loving God create fruits and vegetables with the ability to feel pain and suffer… if their purpose was to be eaten?
    Then neither would animals eat other animals; there would be no poisonous or deadly plants or berries or mushrooms or bugs or animals. There would be no carnivorous plants or infections or poisons or pain or suffering or poverty or starvation or war. There would be no mental retardation or physically handicapped. There would be no Democrats or Liberals or progressives or pro-vaxxers. There would be no criminals or haters or posers.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Would a kind loving God create animals with the ability to feel pain, joy, love, maternal instinct, companionship, playfulness, and a strong desire to live… if their purpose was to be enslaved, abused, tortured, and then have their throats slit so they can be our food?
    Clearly that industry exists, sadly many families can only afford to eat those mass-produced, processed foods. They have been subjugated and demoralized by decades of the criminally insane known as the career politician. My family makes it a point to only consume Step-4 or higher (i.e., it is still very rare to find Step-5 even in Wholefoods--Chart.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    An apple doesn't scream when you slice it. I don't think one even has to be a Christian to figure this out, it's just common sense… Which is God's desire for us to eat: healthy food from the ground which He stated in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible was our food… Or “food" that screams in pain and suffers immensely because it is an intelligent, sentient being that has many of the same desires we do? If you can avoid causing pain and suffering, why wouldn't you?
    Neither does your nose when you spite your face.

    John 6:11 ESV

    Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated. So also the fish, as much as they wanted.

    Matthew 14:19 ESV

    Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass, and taking the five loaves and the two fish, he looked up to heaven and said a blessing. Then he broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds.

    Deuteronomy 16:2,4,6-7

    Sacrifice as the Passover to the Lord your God an animal from your flock or herd at the place the Lord will choose as a dwelling for his Name. ... Do not let any of the meat you sacrifice on the evening of the first day remain until morning. ... There you must sacrifice the Passover in the evening, when the sun goes down, on the anniversary[a] of your departure from Egypt. Roast it and eat it at the place the Lord your God will choose.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  15. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Are we eating Iraqis?
    Nobody eats the entire Iraqi, just the oily parts.
    ESTJ
    The ESTJ is generally very opinionated, and likes to appear authoritative and in charge. They may temper this tendency when around other ESTJs whom they value. Around other types, this tendency may cause them to be abrupt and direct, to the point where they inadvertantly step on people's toes.

  16. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Children are incapable of caring for themselves, they will grab a hot pot, iron or grill, they will put things like bugs or broken glass into their mouth, they will eat pet food, etc.

    Well, I did answer your question, it is just that you made an argument on the preconditioning of children, by using a precondition--that certain animals are fluffy and cute so they should be left unharmed. So what about black widows, scorpions, mambas, constrictors, rattlers, cobras, garden snakes, or Harambe?
    Wow, you still managed to not answer the question, lol. You replied to it, by bringing up all sorts of other things, but all you're doing is deflecting, not answering it with a straight answer. I'm not going to answer your questions until you answer my question.

    But if you don't want to, I'll let it go.


    So you have an author who is an omnivore trying to push the idea that plants and animals are not that different with statements like: "that the line between plants and animals might be a little softer than we traditionally think of it as.” What a surprise!! Not.

    I stand by what I said, of all the arguments against veganism, that one is by far the worst, imo.

    Okay, and so were animals as part of the Earthly ecosystem, for productivity in their own useful ways, including sustenance. It is in the Old Testament:

    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...Peace-Offering
    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...Peace-Offering
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...h=Leviticus+11
    No, we were talking about the purpose, meaning the true and original purpose. We know they were not created to be food, because we can go read what God said, in the beginning, in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible. Here it is:


    And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    Genesis 1: 29–31


    Since we were talking about their true purpose, anything beyond that is a different topic. It is worth discussing, but I want to keep this short and on track, so that would be for another time and place.


    Then neither would animals eat other animals; there would be no poisonous or deadly plants or berries or mushrooms or bugs or animals. There would be no carnivorous plants or infections or poisons or pain or suffering or poverty or starvation or war. There would be no mental retardation or physically handicapped. There would be no Democrats or Liberals or progressives or pro-vaxxers. There would be no criminals or haters or posers.
    All of those things take place because we are living in a fallen world. When the fall of man happened, everything changed, and as time went on, the world changed more and more. That initial paradise was lost.

    God didn't create the world the way it is today, it was created "very good"…. It degraded into the mess that it is today, due to mankind rebelling against God. That is not God's heart, God's heart can be seen in His original design, which was peace and harmony, innocence and goodness. Respect for all living beings… Not violence, cruelty, exploitation, suffering, misery and death. If anything, those things are the work of the enemy of God.


    The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

    John 10:10


    Clearly that industry exists, sadly many families can only afford to eat those mass-produced, processed foods. They have been subjugated and demoralized by decades of the criminally insane known as the career politician. My family makes it a point to only consume Step-4 or higher (i.e., it is still very rare to find Step-5 even in Wholefoods--Chart.)
    Well I'm glad that you agree that factory farming is terrible, but the sad reality is that even the so-called free range or humanely treated animals do not have it much better.

    They still end up with their throat slit against their will… And that is not humane, by definition. Especially when it is completely unnecessary, and only done for one's personal desires.
    Last edited by lilymc; 09-14-2017 at 06:55 PM.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't like Eric Dubay, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this topic. Cutting out all animal products was definitely one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life, and I'm so happy to see this movement growing so fast. You can't hide truth for very long, it eventually comes out.
    How long has it been since you eliminated animal products?

  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    How long has it been since you eliminated animal products?
    About a year and a half. But actually, for the first month or two I was still eating some seafood occasionally… then I cut that out too. I never thought I would say this, but going plant-based was definitely one of the best decisions I ever made. I actually enjoy food a lot more now, because I'm trying all sorts of things that I never tried before, and they are much healthier and cleaner… and I feel better, physically, mentally and spiritually.

    Plus, I've always loved animals, but interestingly now I have an even bigger love for animals than I ever did. It has made me more compassionate in general, I think. And I've heard many other vegans say that.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  19. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    About a year and a half. But actually, for the first month or two I was still eating some seafood occasionally… then I cut that out too. I never thought I would say this, but going plant-based was definitely one of the best decisions I ever made. I actually enjoy food a lot more now, because I'm trying all sorts of things that I never tried before, and they are much healthier and cleaner… and I feel better, physically, mentally and spiritually.

    Plus, I've always loved animals, but interestingly now I have an even bigger love for animals than I ever did. It has made me more compassionate in general, I think. And I've heard many other vegans say that.
    What do you do for B-12 and DHA and EPA Omega 3?

  20. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    About a year and a half. But actually, for the first month or two I was still eating some seafood occasionally… then I cut that out too. I never thought I would say this, but going plant-based was definitely one of the best decisions I ever made. I actually enjoy food a lot more now, because I'm trying all sorts of things that I never tried before, and they are much healthier and cleaner… and I feel better, physically, mentally and spiritually.

    Plus, I've always loved animals, but interestingly now I have an even bigger love for animals than I ever did. It has made me more compassionate in general, I think. And I've heard many other vegans say that.
    You've hit on a good point. Nowadays most folks are very distant from the origin of our food-vegan and otherwise. That can breed a kind of apathy. (plenty of people don't even care if their meat/fruit/veggies are full of hormones and whatnot ) My grandmother slaughtered chickens for dinner herself. My mother saw it happen. That used to be the norm. I never saw slaughters myself, but I visited grandpa's farm regularly during summers, so farm animals weren't abstractions for me like they are for cityfolk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 (KJV)//I sell stuff here go buy nao!

  21. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    What do you do for B-12 and DHA and EPA Omega 3?
    I add Chia seeds to either smoothies or my oatmeal in the morning, which is a source of Omega-3. Also, I try to eat nuts and seeds (like a healthy trail mix) which I love, but here in Mexico it can be hard to find what I want. When I visit California, I like to stock up on things that I can't find here.

    As for B12, I have used some fortified plant-based milks, but as of yet I haven't purchased a B12 supplement. My health is much better now than it was in the past… But what I would like to do sometime soon is get my blood checked to see if I’m deficient in anything.



    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You've hit on a good point. Nowadays most folks are very distant from the origin of our food-vegan and otherwise. That can breed a kind of apathy. (plenty of people don't even care if their meat/fruit/veggies are full of hormones and whatnot ) My grandmother slaughtered chickens for dinner herself. My mother saw it happen. That used to be the norm. I never saw slaughters myself, but I visited grandpa's farm regularly during summers, so farm animals weren't abstractions for me like they are for cityfolk.
    Yep. I was very apathetic before. It's weird, now that I think about it… it's almost like I was in a state of slumber, just not really caring what I put in my body, you know? I think many, many people are like that.

    It's good that you visited your grandpa's farm and had that understanding about where food comes from.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  22. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    You're bringing up all sorts of other topics that really don't have anything to do with the question I asked you. And you didn't really answer my question. If we made kids completely aware of what happens to an animal in order for us to eat its corpse or secretions… Do you think that a young child would choose to kill the animal or play with it? Please answer.
    Without a doubt, kill it, if it meant survival.

    If the kid was from, say, a hundred years ago.

    The idea of anthropomorphism of animals into furry people is a relatively modern development.

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Without a doubt, kill it, if it meant survival.

    If the kid was from, say, a hundred years ago.

    The idea of anthropomorphism of animals into furry people is a relatively modern development.
    I was talking about a very young child… Like a toddler. Come on, you don't really think that baby is going to kill the rabbit instead of play with it?

    And I have to strongly disagree with what you're saying about "anthropomorphism"… It's not about making them into people, I think it's about understanding that animals do have intelligence, emotions, personalities, the strong desire to live.... they are unique individuals.

    Pigs are as smart, if not smarter than dogs. They play just like dogs.



    And it's not just pigs, other animals that we think of as nothing but objects also have awareness and a love for life and personalities. Again, it's not about trying to "make them into people" it's just acknowledging what is right there, if you'd simply open your eyes and your heart.

    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  24. #83

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    Last edited by lilymc; 09-14-2017 at 10:33 PM.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  25. #84

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    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I was talking about a very young child… Like a toddler. Come on, you don't really think that baby is going to kill the rabbit instead of play with it?
    This is a really desperate example, e.g., a even a young child with go with a complete stranger for a piece of candy.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    And I have to strongly disagree with what you're saying about "anthropomorphism"… It's not about making them into people, I think it's about understanding that animals do have intelligence, emotions, personalities, the strong desire to live.... they are unique individuals.
    See you are entirely unwilling to even consider there are more to plants than meets the eye. Wow, so very convenient, eh? I reaffirm that your above claims also (mostly) apply to plants, because there is emerging evidence to infer such a realization, making it entirely logical and compelling.

    Bugs and microorganisms also possess these traits, but that does not seem to whatsoever bother vegans.

    Vegans are unconscionable plant murders! And they don't have to be, because they can just drink water, eat dirt, and take supplements to sustain themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Pigs are as smart, if not smarter than dogs. They play just like dogs.
    The issue is not one of intelligence or souls, but nutritional necessity, the entire world cannot sustain itself solely on green foods, residence of cold climates cannot sustain themselves solely on green foods, not every person wants to ensure strict green food dietary habits. The effort/costs to prepare pigs for market outweighs the effort/costs to prepare dogs for market--except in instances such as Venezuela.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    And it's not just pigs, other animals that we think of as nothing but objects also have awareness and a love for life and personalities.
    Why do you presume that non-vegans think of animals only as objects? Where did you your brain get that from?

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Again, it's not about trying to "make them into people" it's just acknowledging what is right there, if you'd simply open your eyes and your heart.
    Unless of course the subject is about plants, then this logic goes right out the window.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  27. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    This is a really desperate example, e.g., a even a young child with go with a complete stranger for a piece of candy.
    I have never seen anyone go to such great lengths to dodge (and now try to bash) a simple question. It's almost funny, but I'm actually getting tired of this.

    See you are entirely unwilling to even consider there are more to plants than meets the eye. Wow, so very convenient, eh? I reaffirm that your above claims also (mostly) apply to plants, because there is emerging evidence to infer such a realization, making it entirely logical and compelling.
    No, I have considered it, and I think that trying to equate plants to animals is completely inane. And I think it's just an excuse for meat–eaters to dismiss veganism and continue doing what they want to do.

    Bugs and microorganisms also possess these traits, but that does not seem to whatsoever bother vegans.

    Vegans are unconscionable plant murders! And they don't have to be, because they can just drink water, eat dirt, and take supplements to sustain themselves.
    First of all, if that's really what you want to argue, take it up with a vegan. I don't even identify as a vegan because as a Christian, I don't agree with some of the viewpoints of veganism. And as I already stated to you before, according to the Bible, fruits /vegetables / plant-based foods were put on this earth to be our food, that is their purpose If you disagree with that, then I guess you think that the God of the universe is wrong? Hahaha.


    The issue is not one of intelligence or souls, but nutritional necessity, the entire world cannot sustain itself solely on green foods, residence of cold climates cannot sustain themselves solely on green foods, not every person wants to ensure strict green food dietary habits. The effort/costs to prepare pigs for market outweighs the effort/costs to prepare dogs for market--except in instances such as Venezuela.
    There is no nutritional necessity for flesh eating. And except for extreme cases of survival, it is completely unnecessary for most of the world. It really comes down to tradition/habit/personal desire.


    Why do you presume that non-vegans think of animals only as objects? Where did you your brain get that from?
    I didn't say that all non-vegans think that way. However the animal industries certainly treat animals like objects, or mere commodities. It's all about profit, and there's a complete disregard for life...life that was created by God. And when people support those industries by eating meat, they are treating those animals like objects, even if it's indirect or inadvertent.


    Unless of course the subject is about plants, then this logic goes right out the window.
    There is no "logic" in trying to equate slicing an apple with slitting the throat of an intelligent animal like a pig. In fact, I don't even want to dignify that nonargument with any more replies, I feel like I'm wasting my time here. Believe what you want.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  28. #87

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    BTW, @Weston White, you do realize that the post of mine you replied to above was to AF? You seem to have missed post #75, which was to you. But that's OK.
    “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

    ― Isaiah 11:6-7,9

  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    BTW, @Weston White, you do realize that the post of mine you replied to above was to AF? You seem to have missed post #75, which was to you. But that's OK.
    I know, just figured why bother dredging it further, I stated what needed to be stated already.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  30. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I have never seen anyone go to such great lengths to dodge (and now try to bash) a simple question. It's almost funny, but I'm actually getting tired of this.
    You are right it is an easy question, but also inappropriate and moot. No a toddler is not going to kill a rabbit to eat it, neither will it pick an apple from a tree to eat it. Both actions are beyond the child's comprehension and ability.

    Put an apple in a corral with a calf and neither will it eat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, I have considered it, and I think that trying to equate plants to animals is completely inane. And I think it's just an excuse for meat–eaters to dismiss veganism and continue doing what they want to do.
    And I think trying to equate cute fluffy animals to humans, while excluding the ugly dangerous ones and the creepy crawlies is hypercritical. I also think that if evidence is tending to prove that there is more to plant life than our current comprehension has permitted, then we should permit ourselves the tolerance of reconsideration our that we ought to test our existing prejudices and attitudes toward plant life. I also think to not do this is just an excuse by herbivores to dismiss the reality of their flowery sensibilities (pun intended.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    First of all, if that's really what you want to argue, take it up with a vegan. I don't even identify as a vegan because as a Christian, I don't agree with some of the viewpoints of veganism. And as I already stated to you before, according to the Bible, fruits /vegetables / plant-based foods were put on this earth to be our food, that is their purpose If you disagree with that, then I guess you think that the God of the universe is wrong? Hahaha.
    1. If you refuse to consume meat, regardless of the reason, you are a vegan. A vegan is somebody that does not eat flesh or meat.

    2. WTF? The Old Testament has a myriad of quotes on the matter of animal sacrifices and consuming meat and fish.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    There is no nutritional necessity for flesh eating. And except for extreme cases of survival, it is completely unnecessary for most of the world. It really comes down to tradition/habit/personal desire.
    Meat products are loaded with nutritional value, so there is an existing necessity, as to preparation and taste that is a personal preference. That necessity could be as simple as the desire to have a hot hearty meal with family and friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I didn't say that all non-vegans think that way. However the animal industries certainly treat animals like objects, or mere commodities. It's all about profit, and there's a complete disregard for life...life that was created by God. And when people support those industries by eating meat, they are treating those animals like objects, even if it's indirect or inadvertent.
    Well, it is not a disregarding of life, those animals are not being burned at the alter of whatever sun god, they are feeding families, they are making clothing, they are providing livelihoods to the workers, they are being used to compose various other products, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    There is no "logic" in trying to equate slicing an apple with slitting the throat of an intelligent animal like a pig. In fact, I don't even want to dignify that nonargument with any more replies, I feel like I'm wasting my time here. Believe what you want.
    Plants are living and intelligent in their own unique way, there is no logic in pretending that it is okay to chop down crops when they don't have to be, but that is not okay to slice up animals when they also do not have to be.
    Last edited by Weston White; 09-15-2017 at 04:19 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  31. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Again, it's not about trying to "make them into people" it's just acknowledging what is right there, if you'd simply open your eyes and your heart.
    I like to think my eyes are, in fact, wide open.

    I have made my living, most of my adult life, supplying the lifeblood of modern society, food and fuel, that billions rely on to stay alive.

    And, in typical human fashion, I am routinely accused of being heartless and insensitive for providing these essentials, at great human cost, by prying them out of a cold and relentless sea, a sea and force of nature that will happily kill me, and the creature living beneath it, consume me, if I allow it to happen by relaxing my concentration or focus.

    No, my eyes are wide ass open...nature's a bitch, and whether it was god, or DNA or the Flying Spaghetti Monster that set up the rules, the fact of the matter it is kill or be killed, survival of the fittest.

    The fact that humans are at the apex of the food chain comes from the fact that we have learned to cultivate and consume numerous sources of nutrition, including animal flesh.

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