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Thread: When Is It Justifiable For a State to Annex Territory?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In other words, it would be unjust to use force to oppose a majoritarian tyranny?
    If you are a member of the society it would not be unjust to defend your rights, but it might be suicidal.
    If you are an outsider it is none of your business.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You could say that possessors never become owners and allow the de facto statute of limitations to operate (i.e. with the passage of enough time, proof becomes practically impossible); or you could have an arbitrary statute of limitations. I'm not sure that it makes much difference. Anyway, what does this have to do with the aggression-minimization theory? I mean, if your point is that there's no perfect way to determine who owns what, I agree, but what's the upshot of that? Therefore, property is bad...?
    My point is that there is and must be a time limit on the return of property taken by one nation from another nation, you asked me what would be the way to handle such questions in my philosophy and I asked you how you would handle them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you are a member of the society it would not be unjust to defend your rights, but it might be suicidal.
    If you are an outsider it is none of your business.
    Even if an insider asks for your assistance?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Even if an insider asks for your assistance?
    On an individual basis it is a complex question I have yet to come to a conclusion about, on a group basis we have no business getting involved unless we choose to allow them to come live with us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    On an individual basis it is a complex question I have yet to come to a conclusion about, on a group basis we have no business getting involved unless we choose to allow them to come live with us.
    But a group can secede, and then we can annex them (ala Texas)?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  6. #35

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    But a group can secede, and then we can annex them (ala Texas)?
    Yes, but they must have some measure of success on their own first, enough to prove they have a dominant majority of supporters in their territory.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes, but they must have some measure of success on their own first, enough to prove they have a dominant majority of supporters in their territory.
    Or I suppose a poll would do, if that were somehow feasible? IOW, it's just a matter of them actually having a majority (not just claiming to), yes?

    On another note, we established that people have a right to resist tyranny - I assume that extends to the individual?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  8. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Or I suppose a poll would do, if that were somehow feasible? IOW, it's just a matter of them actually having a majority (not just claiming to), yes?
    50% +1 might not be enough, I am not sure about it if you cut it that fine, but yes a poll like the Catalan secession vote might do.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    On another note, we established that people have a right to resist tyranny - I assume that extends to the individual?
    Yes, although it might not be the wisest thing to do in any given situation.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes, although it might not be the wisest thing to do in any given situation.
    And an individual can secede?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  10. #39

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And an individual can secede?
    No, we discussed this before, besides the practical problems there is a minimum size of territory and population required to form a state.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, we discussed this before, besides the practical problems there is a minimum size of territory and population required to form a state.
    If if an individual can justly resist, I don't see why he can't justly secede.

    What is secession but resistance, anyway?

    "I am no longer going to obey your laws" = "I am seceding from your state", no?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  12. #41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If if an individual can justly resist, I don't see why he can't justly secede.

    What is secession but resistance, anyway?

    "I am no longer going to obey your laws" = "I am seceding from your state", no?
    If we say that an individual can secede we will quickly discover that it is meaningless, secession is the formation of a separate state, the individual would have to get a passport and a visa to leave his property and if he violated the laws of the state that surrounded him while off of his property or offended them in some other way he would be subject to war against him by that state, in effect he would still be subject to the state around him.

    The minimum requirement for a state is that it provide a territory in which it alone is capable and responsible for justice and defense.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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