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Thread: Should Libertarians support Capital Punishment?

  1. #1

    Should Libertarians support Capital Punishment?

    "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." - Founding Father Thomas Jefferson



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  3. #2
    Dr. Paul is wrong on this one.
    Man can't do anything perfectly but we must do our best and leave the rest up to GOD.
    Some crimes deserve the Death penalty anything less is a disservice to the victims and the rest of society.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Dr. Paul is wrong on this one.
    Man can't do anything perfectly but we must do our best and leave the rest up to GOD.
    Some crimes deserve the Death penalty anything less is a disservice to the victims and the rest of society.
    Since man can't do anything perfectly, then killing somebody who was actually innocent would be an irreparable mistake. And mistakes can and do happen in death penalty cases. It would be a disservice to that person and his family and not offer any sort of reparations to the alleged victims he was killed over. Society is not better off if it kills an innocent person. Government sponsored killing doesn't make society better off. Should the punishment be up to God- not man? "Thou shalt not kill"?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Since man can't do anything perfectly, then killing somebody who was actually innocent would be an irreparable mistake. And mistakes can and do happen in death penalty cases. It would be a disservice to that person and his family and not offer any sort of reparations to the alleged victims he was killed over. Society is not better off if it kills an innocent person. Government sponsored killing doesn't make society better off. Should the punishment be up to God- not man? "Thou shalt not kill"?
    Genesis 9:6

    “Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

    King James Version (KJV)


    GOD takes the responsibility for making right any mistakes after we do the best we can.



    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Genesis 9:6

    “Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

    King James Version (KJV)


    GOD takes the responsibility for making right any mistakes after we do the best we can.



    It's just too bad I guess that there's absolutely no evidence that any god exists, much less the god of the bible. Why the hell should we risk killing innocent people because we make the baseless assumption that some higher power will make it right in the end?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Dr. Paul is wrong on this one.
    Man can't do anything perfectly but we must do our best and leave the rest up to GOD.
    Some crimes deserve the Death penalty anything less is a disservice to the victims and the rest of society.
    I disagree. Dr. Paul, as usual, is spot on.

    Since 1973, one out of every ten individuals sentenced to death has been released from death row because of evidence discovered after conviction.
    Even if it were only one out of 1000 it would be too large an error.

    As strong as the practical arguments against the death penalty are, the moral case is much stronger. Since it is impossible to develop an error-free death penalty system, those who support the death penalty are embracing the idea that the government should be able to execute innocent people for the "greater good." The idea that the government should be able to force individuals to sacrifice their right to life for imaginary gains in personal safety is even more dangerous to liberty than the idea that the government should be able to force individuals to sacrifice their property rights for imaginary gains in economic security.

    Opposition to allowing the government to take life is also part of a consistent pro-life position. Thus, those of any ideology who oppose abortion or preemptive war should also oppose the death penalty. Until the death penalty is abolished, we will have neither a free nor a moral society.
    Yup.

  8. #7
    For now, I say except in convictions of treason, interstate kidnapping, and preying on children, let the states decide if there's capital punishment. Although guaranteed justice does not mean justice done, Hammurabi was essentially correct: if humans want just laws, they need skin in the game. There's nothing tyrannical about a local or state court demanding security from a company contracted to complete a public work. Take fugu laws:

    Since 1958, fugu chefs must earn a license to prepare and sell fugu to the public. This involves a two- or three-year apprenticeship. The licensing examination process consists of a written test, a fish-identification test, and a practical test, preparing and eating the fish. Only about 35 percent of the applicants pass. Small miscalculations result in failure or, in rare cases, death.

    If treason is punishable by death, then the penalty for political corruption should be as severe.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    It's just too bad I guess that there's absolutely no evidence that any god exists, much less the god of the bible. Why the hell should we risk killing innocent people because we make the baseless assumption that some higher power will make it right in the end?
    For you atheists the logic is: if you do your best to minimize the possibility of convicting the innocent then the extremely rare cases of killing an innocent man are more than made up for by the repeat murders you prevent and the murders that don't happen because people are afraid of the death penalty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    For you atheists the logic is: if you do your best to minimize the possibility of convicting the innocent then the extremely rare cases of killing an innocent man are more than made up for by the repeat murders you prevent and the murders that don't happen because people are afraid of the death penalty.
    If only such a system existed. In the United States, it certainly doesn't, so in the meantime, we should probably get rid of the death penalty. And to use the US as an example, the murder rate in states with the death penalty is significantly higher than states without it. So that "fear of death" deterrent doesn't seem to be doing too much.

    I'm not sure why you initially chose to inject your religious BS into it. Religion is best at making people value the lives of their fellow man less.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    If only such a system existed. In the United States, it certainly doesn't, so in the meantime, we should probably get rid of the death penalty. And to use the US as an example, the murder rate in states with the death penalty is significantly higher than states without it. So that "fear of death" deterrent doesn't seem to be doing too much.
    If you don't like the standard of proof in death penalty cases the answer is to change it not do away with the death penalty.
    The murder rate is affected by many different things but it would be worse without the death penalty in those states that have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I'm not sure why you initially chose to inject your religious BS into it. Religion is best at making people value the lives of their fellow man less.
    Religion is true.
    But in any case Zippy was the one who brought it up, I just countered his heresy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by uncharted View Post
    Dr Paul makes a strong case against the death penalty. On the other hand though, taken to their logical conclusion a lot of the arguments against the death penalty would suggest we don't punish crime at all. How many people serving long sentences for violent crimes are innocent?

    Now, that's a real problem too and I don't mean to say we should stand for it. But at the same time I'm not going to call for legalizing violent crime, that would be another form of injustice with a different victim. Our criminal justice system is so thoroughly screwed up I can't say I like any part of it.

    One of the worst things I see in our system is that we have state funded prosecutors. People who are paid to make the case that everyone who goes to court is guilty. Instead all evidence pointing any direction should be gathered and presented in a no nonsense, justice is blind sort of way.

    As strong as the practical arguments against the death penalty are, the moral case is much stronger. Since it is impossible to develop an error-free death penalty system, those who support the death penalty are embracing the idea that the government should be able to execute innocent people for the "greater good." The idea that the government should be able to force individuals to sacrifice their right to life for imaginary gains in personal safety is even more dangerous to liberty than the idea that the government should be able to force individuals to sacrifice their property rights for imaginary gains in economic security.
    You could replace 'death penalty' with 'life imprisonment' and it would be just as true. It is taking away a life just as well.
    Last edited by William Tell; 08-24-2017 at 06:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you don't like the standard of proof in death penalty cases the answer is to change it not do away with the death penalty.
    The murder rate is affected by many different things but it would be worse without the death penalty in those states that have it.

    Religion is true.
    But in any case Zippy was the one who brought it up, I just countered his heresy.
    In a system where prosecutors routinely falsify evidence to get convictions, there should certainly be no death penalty. And that will never be the case, so it's best to get rid of it. People also called for the execution of people like Manning and Snowden. In a country where such idiocy, corruption, and sociopathy are rampant inside the government, it's best for the death penalty to be as far as possible from the trigger fingers of these maniacs.

    Religion is false. And Zippy didn't bring it up, lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Dr. Paul is wrong on this one.
    Man can't do anything perfectly but we must do our best and leave the rest up to GOD.
    Some crimes deserve the Death penalty anything less is a disservice to the victims and the rest of society.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Religion is false. And Zippy didn't bring it up, lol...
    Originally Posted by Swordsmyth
    Dr. Paul is wrong on this one.
    Man can't do anything perfectly but we must do our best and leave the rest up to GOD.
    Some crimes deserve the Death penalty anything less is a disservice to the victims and the rest of society.





    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Should the punishment be up to God- not man? "Thou shalt not kill"?
    OK I mentioned it in passing, but zippy was the one who tried to base an argument on it first.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
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    I no longer support death penalties because I don't trust the government since they have demonstrated a poor track record.
    Citizen of Arizona
    @cleaner4d4

    I am a libertarian. I am advocating everyone enjoy maximum freedom on both personal and economic issues as long as they do not bring violence unto others.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    If only such a system existed. In the United States, it certainly doesn't, so in the meantime, we should probably get rid of the death penalty. And to use the US as an example, the murder rate in states with the death penalty is significantly higher than states without it. So that "fear of death" deterrent doesn't seem to be doing too much.

    I'm not sure why you initially chose to inject your religious BS into it. Religion is best at making people value the lives of their fellow man less.
    The death penalty is not a very effective deterrent.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-24-2017 at 07:25 PM.

  18. #16
    I used to.

    I no longer do.

    Ron is right on this.



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  20. #17
    As long as it is just applied to foreigners and Injuns.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    As long as it is just applied to foreigners and Injuns.
    I will not be surrendering .

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleaner44 View Post
    I no longer support death penalties because I don't trust the government since they have demonstrated a poor track record.
    That's pretty much how I see it too. I disagree with those who say that the death penalty in and of itself is wrong. But because the government is so corrupt, there's too much room for abuse.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I will not be surrendering .
    If you do, I could see casino in your future.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    If you do, I could see casino in your future.
    The Great War Chief cannot just be a casino Indian . I must have a great expanse so the sun can bask in my greatness and victories , it gives the sun energy and keeps everyone alive with its warmth.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    The Great War Chief cannot just be a casino Indian . I must have a great expanse so the sun can bask in my greatness and victories , it gives the sun energy and keeps everyone alive with its warmth.
    You been smoking again tonight?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  26. #23
    I support the death penalty.

    In one and only one instance....

    In person, in self defense.


    There are probably other cases too. Like if an entire community knew that someone's only beloved daughter was regularly beaten by her boyfriend and the law never did anything about it and he mysteriously got a lead lobotomy, I wouldn't ask a whole lot of questions about it and assume he tripped and fell real hard on a bullet.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Genesis 9:6

    “Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

    King James Version (KJV)


    GOD takes the responsibility for making right any mistakes after we do the best we can.



    If you're going to read from the KJV (instead of Torah), you have to interpret it in light of the Gospel and Church Fathers. You're doing it wrong. (The passage you quoted is in the context of the covenant with Noah-an Old Covenant, btw. This, like other things-(literal animal blood sacrifices, circumcision, etc) are done away with in the New Covenant. Read your New Testament and the Church Fathers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  29. #25
    Rothbard's view, from Ethics of Liberty

    Few aspects of libertarian political theory are in a less satisfactory state than the theory of punishment.2 Usually, libertarians have been content to assert or develop the axiom that no one may aggress against the person or property of another; what sanctions may be taken against such an invader has been scarcely treated at all. We have advanced the view that the criminal loses his rights to the extent that he deprives another of his rights: the theory of "proportionality." We must now elaborate further on what such a theory of proportional punishment may imply.

    In the first place, it should be clear that the proportionate principle is a maximum, rather than a mandatory, punishment for the criminal. In the libertarian society, there are, as we have said, only two parties to a dispute or action at law: the victim, or plaintiff, and the alleged criminal, or defendant. It is the plaintiff that presses charges in the courts against the wrongdoer. In a libertarian world, there would be no crimes against an ill-defined "society," and therefore no such person as a "district attorney" who decides on a charge and then presses those charges against an alleged criminal. The proportionality rule tells us how much punishment a plaintiff may exact from a convicted wrongdoer, and no more; it imposes the maximum limit on punishment that may be inflicted before the punisher himself becomes a criminal aggressor.

    Thus, it should be quite clear that, under libertarian law, capital punishment would have to be confined strictly to the crime of murder. For a criminal would only lose his right to life if he had first deprived some victim of that same right.
    This is more or less the standard libertarian view, and also (more or less) my own. Practically, the death penalty does deter; just look at the people who plead guilty in exchange for a life sentence, in order to avoid being executed. For the vast majority of people, death is the worst punishment, and therefore the punishment which most strongly deters. As for the argument that the dealt penalty is is unjust because innocent people may be sometimes wrongfully convicted, that - as @William Tell points out - is an argument against punishment in general, not only the death penalty. In any legal system (incl. a hypothetical stateless legal system), innocent people will sometimes be convicted; people are fallible. There's no escaping this, unless you're seriously willing to abandon punishment altogether and let criminals roam free.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    You been smoking again tonight?
    Only the best peyote for uncle @oyarde, according to the webbernets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    If you're going to read from the KJV (instead of Torah), you have to interpret it in light of the Gospel and Church Fathers. You're doing it wrong. (The passage you quoted is in the context of the covenant with Noah-an Old Covenant, btw. This, like other things-(literal animal blood sacrifices, circumcision, etc) are done away with in the New Covenant. Read your New Testament and the Church Fathers.
    The law of MOSES was fulfilled when Christ came, Genesis 9:6 was given to Noah, the 10 commandments were not ended either, just the added laws given to MOSES or made up by him.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I support the death penalty.

    In one and only one instance....

    In person, in self defense.


    There are probably other cases too. Like if an entire community knew that someone's only beloved daughter was regularly beaten by her boyfriend and the law never did anything about it and he mysteriously got a lead lobotomy, I wouldn't ask a whole lot of questions about it and assume he tripped and fell real hard on a bullet.
    I've been thinking about this lately too. The only other justifiable case for a death penalty would be for a person who is so demonstrably dangerous he literally cannot stop himself from hurting and killing others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    If you're going to read from the KJV (instead of Torah), you have to interpret it in light of the Gospel and Church Fathers. You're doing it wrong. (The passage you quoted is in the context of the covenant with Noah-an Old Covenant, btw. This, like other things-(literal animal blood sacrifices, circumcision, etc) are done away with in the New Covenant. Read your New Testament and the Church Fathers.
    The Noahic Covenant is not a temporal covenant. Are you getting it mixed up with the Mosaic covenant?


    “And God said, ‘This is the sign of the covenant which I am making between Me and you and every living creation that is with you, for all successive generations;’” ( Genesis 9:12).
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The law of MOSES was fulfilled when Christ came, Genesis 9:6 was given to Noah, the 10 commandments were not ended either, just the added laws given to MOSES or made up by him.
    You're not reading me correctly. I literally said "New Covenant"-that means the fulfillment of the law when Christ entered the world. Indeed the Decalogue was not "ended", nor did I say it was. Again, as I said before you were interpreting the Pentateuch like a Jew instead of a Christian. A Christian needs to look at it in light of the New Covenant. For greater clarity on what exactly it means to do this, read the Church Fathers as well as the text itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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