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Thread: Privatize the Public Monuments

  1. #1

    Privatize the Public Monuments

    08/17/2017
    Ryan McMaken

    When I was a student at the University of Colorado, I regularly walked by the Dalton Trumbo memorial fountain which was named after the communist Stalin-sympathizing novelist and screenwriter.

    Once upon a time, the fountain had been simply known as "the fountain," but around 25 years ago, it was unnecessarily renamed after a controversial person.

    The reason for the renaming was the same as with any memorial or monument designed to honor a person or idea — to create an emotional connection and familiarity with the person or idea connected to the place; to communicate a certain view of history.

    The renaming of the fountain followed an earlier renaming controversy. One of the University's dorms, Nichols Hall, was named after a participant in the infamous Sand Creek Massacre. Even in its own time, the massacre had been denounced, earning condemnation from Indian fighters like Kit Carson. Not surprisingly, the dorm that bore Nichols's name was eventually renamed "Cheyenne Arapahoe" in honor of the Indian tribes whose members Nichols had helped attack.

    As with the Trumbo fountain, the dorm's name was changed in order to send subtle messages — messages about what is valued, what is good, and what is bad.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with this, of course. The problem only arises when we begin to use taxpayer funded facilities and institutions to carry out these attempts at education.

    Thus, in a sense, when approaching the problem of government monuments and memorials, we encounter the same problem we have with public schools. Whose values are going to be pushed, preserved, and exalted? And, who's going to be forced to pay for it?
    Ideology Changes Over Time

    This problem is further complicated by the fact that these views change over time.

    Over time, the "good guys" can change as majority views shift, as new groups take over the machinery of government institutions, and as ideologies change.

    In 1961, when Nichols Hall was named, few people apparently cared much about the Sand Creek Massacre. 25 years later, however, views had changed considerably among both students and administrators.

    For a very obvious illustration of how these changes takes place, we need look no further than the schools.

    In the early days of public schooling — an institution founded by Christian nationalists to push their message — students were forced to read the King James Bible. Catholics were forced to pay taxes so schools could instruct students on how awful and dangerous Catholicism was. Immigrant families from Southern and Eastern Europe were forced to pay for schools that instructed their children on the inferiority of their non-Anglo ethnic groups.

    A century later, things have changed considerably. Today, Anglo-Saxons are taught to hate themselves, and while Catholics are still despised (but for different reasons), they now are joined in their pariah status by most other Christian groups as well. Italians and Eastern Europeans who were once treated in public schools as subhuman are now reviled as members of the white oppressor class.

    Similar changes have taken place in art and in public monuments and memorials.

    Public Memorials Serve the Same Function as Public Schools

    But the principle remains the same, whether we're talking about public schools or public monuments: we're using public funds and facilities to "educate" the public about what's good and what's not.

    This has long been known by both the people who first erected today's aging monuments, and by the people who now want to tear them down. The leftist who support scrapping certain monuments actively seek to change public monuments and memorials to back up their own worldview because they recognize that it can make a difference in the public imagination. They're fine with forcing the taxpayers to support their own worldview, of course, and actively seek to use public lands, public spaces, public roads, and public buildings to subsidize their efforts. They already succeeded in doing this with public schools decades ago.

    The Answer: Privatize the Monuments

    In a way, the combined effect of public memorials, monuments, streets, and buildings function to turn public spaces into a type of large open-air social studies class, reinforcing some views, while ignoring others.

    Libertarians have long noted the problem of public education: it's impossible to teach history in a value-neutral way, and thus public schools are likely to teach values that support the state and its agendas. Even some conservatives have finally caught on.

    To combat this problem, those who object to these elements within public schooling support homeschooling, private schooling, and private-sector alternatives that diminish the role of public institutions.

    Governmental public spaces offer the same problem as public schools.

    In both cases the answer is the same: minimize the role of government institutions in shaping public ideology, public attitudes, and the public's view of history.

    Rather than using publicly funded thoroughfares, parks, and buildings as a means of reinforcing public "education" and "shared history" as we do now, these government facilities should be stripped down to their most basic functions. Providing office space for administrative offices, providing streets for transport, and providing parks for recreation. (The last thing we need is a history lesson from the semi-illiterates on a typical city council.)

    Some might argue that all these properties and facilities should be privatized themselves. That's fair enough, but as long as we're forced to live with these facilities, we need not also use them to "honor" politicians or whatever persons the current ruling class happens to find worthy of praise.

    The nostalgia lobby will react with horror to this proposition. "Why, you can't do that!" they'll complain. "We'll be robbed of our heritage and history." Even assuming these people could precisely define exactly who "we" is they still need to explain why public property is necessary to preserve this alleged heritage.

    After all, by this way of thinking, the preservation of one's culture and heritage relies on a subsidy from the taxpayers, and a nod of assent from government agencies.

    Preserving and Promoting Culture Through Private Action

    Once upon a time, however, people who actually valued their heritage did not sit around begging the government to protect it for them. Many were willing to actually take action and spend their own money on preserving the heritage that many now rather unconvincingly claim is so important to them.

    A good example of the key role of private property in cases such as this can be seen in the work of the Catholic Church in the US — which has never enjoyed majority support from the population or from government institutions. If Catholics were to get their symbols and memorials in front of the public, they were going to have to build them on private property, and that's exactly what they did.

    In Denver, for example, the Catholics of the early 20th century knew (correctly) that no public park or government building was going to erect any Catholic-themed art or memorials on their property. So, the Catholics proceeded to erect an enormous cathedral on a hilltop one block from the state capitol. The new cathedral was highly visible and provided easy access to religious ceremonies for the few Catholic politicians and officials who worked at the capitol. It provided meeting space. It contained stained-glass art created by German masters. Moreover, the new building served as a huge symbolic middle finger to the anti-Catholic Ku Klux Klan which was growing in importance in Denver at the time.

    So, did Church officials sit around whining about how there was no crucifix on the front lawn of the State Capitol? Did they demand that the taxpayers pay to maintain a central town plaza featuring a statue of Saint Peter? Some probably did. Those who made a difference, though, took action and acquired real estate in prominent places throughout the city. They put universities on that land, and cemeteries, and convents, and friaries, and schools, and even some memorials and statues. Today, next to the cathedral, on a busy street corner, is a large statue of a Catholic pope: John Paul II. It's on private property. It's seen by thousands every day.

    And why should the self-appointed protectors of American "traditional" values think they deserve anything different? On the contrary, we'd all have been saved a lot of trouble if the organizations that demanded statues of Confederate generals everywhere had put them on private land instead of in public parks. We'd all be better off if the private owners of the Stone Mountain monument hadn't sold it to the State of Georgia because they were too cheap and lazy to maintain it themselves.

    In the past, had the purveyors of publicly-funded culture instead taken a principled and successful stand against using public lands and funds to push a certain view of history, no one would have to now waste his time sitting through city council meetings where politicians decide who deserves a statue, and who is to be thrown in the dustbin of history. Were we to quit using public parks as showcases for public indoctrination, we wouldn't have to worry about the Church of Satan erecting a monument in the "free speech area" of a public park — as they recently did near Minneapolis.

    The next time someone wants a statue of some politician, artist, or intellectual — whether they be communists, Confederates, or satanists — they ought to be told to buy a nice little plot of land somewhere — perhaps along a busy street or next to an important street corner in town — and put their statue there.
    https://mises.org/blog/privatize-public-monuments

    A comment on the article...
    jgmoebus • 2 days ago

    [i had just finished writing the following and had posted it to Jeffrey Tucker's piece on the FEE site about Charlottesville, when i read Mr McMaken's piece. i'd like to share it as a possible Next step toward implementing what he has suggested.] :

    Permit me to propose a simple, easy, efficient, and effective solution to this whole problem with memorials, monuments, and memes about the Confederacy and it's War of Secession [aka, the First American Civil War]:

    How about if all governments at the federal, state, and local level offer all those statues, obelisks, and so forth up for sale to the highest bidder? That way, those who want, say, a statue of Robert E Lee where it stands, could buy and thus own it and the property it sits on, and would thus assume responsibility for protecting and preserving it, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And, those who don't want that statue anywhere in the neighborhood could similarly purchase it and the property it sits on, and do whatever they want to do to it, including destroying it.

    It would be a great way for governments at all levels to generate some cash flow, and to eliminate the expenditure of federal, state, and/or local resources on keeping the peace between folks who want to protest ~ and counter-protest ~ what happens to a particular piece of metal, or building of stone, or whatever.

    Plus, it would give all them alt-Right/White, neo-Nazis, etc, and all them BLMrs, ANTIFAs, etc [and everybody else who thinks that all this is a seriously serious issue] a chance to literally put their monies where there mouths are.

    The same concept could be equally applied to mementos of those slave-owners [even while serving as POTUS] Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe, eh?
    Last edited by Suzanimal; 08-19-2017 at 08:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  3. #2
    ​Wow what a great idea.



    Permit me to propose a simple, easy, efficient, and effective solution to this whole problem with memorials, monuments, and memes about the Confederacy and it's War of Secession [aka, the First American Civil War]:

    How about if all governments at the federal, state, and local level offer all those statues, obelisks, and so forth up for sale to the highest bidder? That way, those who want, say, a statue of Robert E Lee where it stands, could buy and thus own it and the property it sits on, and would thus assume responsibility for protecting and preserving it, from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And, those who don't want that statue anywhere in the neighborhood could similarly purchase it and the property it sits on, and do whatever they want to do to it, including destroying it.

    It would be a great way for governments at all levels to generate some cash flow, and to eliminate the expenditure of federal, state, and/or local resources on keeping the peace between folks who want to protest ~ and counter-protest ~ what happens to a particular piece of metal, or building of stone, or whatever.

    Plus, it would give all them alt-Right/White, neo-Nazis, etc, and all them BLMrs, ANTIFAs, etc [and everybody else who thinks that all this is a seriously serious issue] a chance to literally put their monies where there mouths are.

  4. #3
    Rand should propose a bill to do this with the Federal monuments and to prohibit the feds from making any more, the states may have the power to erect monuments but the Feds do not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

    There is no "private" property.

    There is government property.

    And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

    That's it.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

    There is no "private" property.

    There is government property.

    And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

    That's it.
    Of course but it's still the best idea I've heard. Hell, I might be interested in a few lawn ornaments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Nice idea, but for one, very large problem.

    There is no "private" property.

    There is government property.

    And there is property that you rent from government, with varying degrees of use allowed.

    That's it.
    Well, since the majority of these statues came from funds raised by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, I suppose they could be returned to them. Or let them rent the spaces they are in and let the UDoC and the Sons of Confederate Veterans provide maintenance and security.
    Of course this won't happen. Nothing short of a complete purge will satisfy the autistic screechers.

  8. #7
    And why should the self-appointed protectors of American "traditional" values think they deserve anything different? On the contrary, we'd all have been saved a lot of trouble if the organizations that demanded statues of Confederate generals everywhere had put them on private land instead of in public parks. We'd all be better off if the private owners of the Stone Mountain monument hadn't sold it to the State of Georgia because they were too cheap and lazy to maintain it themselves.

    In the past, had the purveyors of publicly-funded culture instead taken a principled and successful stand against using public lands and funds to push a certain view of history, no one would have to now waste his time sitting through city council meetings where politicians decide who deserves a statue, and who is to be thrown in the dustbin of history. Were we to quit using public parks as showcases for public indoctrination, we wouldn't have to worry about the Church of Satan erecting a monument in the "free speech area" of a public park — as they recently did near Minneapolis.

    The next time someone wants a statue of some politician, artist, or intellectual — whether they be communists, Confederates, or satanists — they ought to be told to buy a nice little plot of land somewhere — perhaps along a busy street or next to an important street corner in town — and put their statue there.
    OK, fine. Fair enough point but not really relevant to the current debate. What about the monuments that are already in place? Like Phill pointed out some were originally paid for by groups like the SCV. The question is what to do with monuments that are currently in the possession of state and local governments. I'd say leave them alone. If you really want them gone donate them to the SCV or some other group that cares about them. But that won't happen because the governments don't want to be seen giving anything to the SCV.
    Last edited by William Tell; 08-19-2017 at 01:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    OK, fine. Fair enough point but not really relevant to the current debate. What about the monuments that are already in place? Like Phill pointed out some were originally paid for by groups like the SCV. The question is what to do with monuments that are currently in the possession of state and local governments. I'd say leave them alone or donate them to the SCV or some other group that cares about them. But that won't happen because the governments don't want to be seen giving anything to the SCV.
    If they were donated, they should have the option of moving them to another location. Clearly, they can be moved and it's certainly better than seeing them thrown in a garbage bin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    If they were donated, they should have the option of moving them to another location. Clearly, they can be moved and it's certainly better than seeing them thrown in a garbage bin.
    Absolutely! Collection of all historical monuments, personal items, and documents should be more centralized and placed in privately held areas. The carbon footprints currently left by the various protesters is horrendous. Centralized, regional collection facilities will enable more efficient protests with the maximum number of participants. Personal attacks, destruction, and firebombing will no longer be crimes occurring on government held lands, so the Feds can just mind their own damned business. Owners of the antiquities can defend them, or not, as they so choose.

    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  12. #10
    Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.
    "We" can actually talk about both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  14. #12

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Can we have repeal first, I learned this lesson recently they like to pull the shell game in politics.
    No one would love to see taxes disappear more than I BUT in order to convince enough people that "we" don't need taxes to pay for government services "we" need to present them with actual ideas on how things could work without taxes.

    Don't worry nickers, this isn't going to actually happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    No one would love to see taxes disappear more than I BUT in order to convince enough people that "we" don't need taxes to pay for government services "we" need to present them with actual ideas on how things could work without taxes.

    Don't worry nickers, this isn't going to actually happen.
    I was talking civil asset forfeiture- you know baby steps towards freedom. Then we can talk about money printing and taxation

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I was talking civil asset forfeiture- you know baby steps towards freedom. Then we can talk about money printing and taxation
    I missed the segue.

    Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I missed the segue.

    Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?
    I thought we were talking about privatization of government property, so you want to transfer assets from the public sector to the private sector, how is that not a shell game if they can just transfer it back?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I missed the segue.

    Why don't you start a thread on how we shouldn't discuss anything until asses forfeiture is dealt with?
    Wait? Wut?


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I thought we were talking about privatization of government property, so you want to transfer assets from the public sector to the private sector, how is that not a shell game if they can just transfer it back?
    I never claimed the game wasn't rigged and I've posted lots of articles on civil asses forfeiture. However, I do think coming up with ideas on privatization is a worthwhile endeavor. Clearly, you don't. *shrug*

    Is that all we're allowed to discuss right now? I must've missed the memo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  22. #19
    Muh asses.

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Wait? Wut?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I never claimed the game wasn't rigged and I've posted lots of articles on civil asses forfeiture. However, I do think coming up with ideas on privatization is a worthwhile endeavor. Clearly, you don't. *shrug*

    Is that all we're allowed to discuss right now? I must've missed the memo.
    No just thought we could discuss what the logical conclusion of this comes to when the government gets to take away property and basically give it out to who they want. I think its an easy way to erase our history in the long run, freedom hasn't been around for very long and clearly those monuments are whats left of our history, and tell us how we got here.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Nothing is private when the government can take everything from you anyways. This is always my argument against the privatize everything crowd. We should take away the governments authority to steal from people then we can talk about privatization.
    Just FYI, that's not an argument.

    argument
    noun ar·gu·ment \ˈär-gyə-mənt\
    a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 08-19-2017 at 07:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    No just thought we could discuss what the logical conclusion of this comes to when the government gets to take away property and basically give it out to who they want. I think its an easy way to erase our history in the long run, freedom hasn't been around for very long and
    Who do the monuments belong to?

    If they're going to be torn down and thrown in the trash (which is what's happening) is not better that they're either returned to whoever donated them or sold?

    clearly those monuments are whats left of our history, and tell us how we got here.
    From the op...and actually, they don't tell me how I got here. I know exactly how I got here. However, I do hate to see them destroyed and would be happy to donate to keep them up. I actually am a great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, btw. Just so you don't think I'm some $#@! who wants to see them destroyed. I really don't and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

    Imagine for a moment the memorials that will be erected 20 years from now...*shudders*

    Public Memorials Serve the Same Function as Public Schools

    But the principle remains the same, whether we're talking about public schools or public monuments: we're using public funds and facilities to "educate" the public about what's good and what's not.

    This has long been known by both the people who first erected today's aging monuments, and by the people who now want to tear them down. The leftist who support scrapping certain monuments actively seek to change public monuments and memorials to back up their own worldview because they recognize that it can make a difference in the public imagination. They're fine with forcing the taxpayers to support their own worldview, of course, and actively seek to use public lands, public spaces, public roads, and public buildings to subsidize their efforts. They already succeeded in doing this with public schools decades ago.

    The Answer: Privatize the Monuments

    In a way, the combined effect of public memorials, monuments, streets, and buildings function to turn public spaces into a type of large open-air social studies class, reinforcing some views, while ignoring others.

    Libertarians have long noted the problem of public education: it's impossible to teach history in a value-neutral way, and thus public schools are likely to teach values that support the state and its agendas. Even some conservatives have finally caught on.

    To combat this problem, those who object to these elements within public schooling support homeschooling, private schooling, and private-sector alternatives that diminish the role of public institutions.

    Governmental public spaces offer the same problem as public schools.

    In both cases the answer is the same: minimize the role of government institutions in shaping public ideology, public attitudes, and the public's view of history.

    Rather than using publicly funded thoroughfares, parks, and buildings as a means of reinforcing public "education" and "shared history" as we do now, these government facilities should be stripped down to their most basic functions. Providing office space for administrative offices, providing streets for transport, and providing parks for recreation. (The last thing we need is a history lesson from the semi-illiterates on a typical city council.)

    Some might argue that all these properties and facilities should be privatized themselves. That's fair enough, but as long as we're forced to live with these facilities, we need not also use them to "honor" politicians or whatever persons the current ruling class happens to find worthy of praise.

    The nostalgia lobby will react with horror to this proposition. "Why, you can't do that!" they'll complain. "We'll be robbed of our heritage and history." Even assuming these people could precisely define exactly who "we" is they still need to explain why public property is necessary to preserve this alleged heritage.

    After all, by this way of thinking, the preservation of one's culture and heritage relies on a subsidy from the taxpayers, and a nod of assent from government agencies.

    Preserving and Promoting Culture Through Private Action

    Once upon a time, however, people who actually valued their heritage did not sit around begging the government to protect it for them. Many were willing to actually take action and spend their own money on preserving the heritage that many now rather unconvincingly claim is so important to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    argument

    a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view
    I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Who do the monuments belong to?

    If they're going to be torn down and thrown in the trash (which is what's happening) is not better that they're either returned to whoever donated them or sold?



    From the op...and actually, they don't tell me how I got here. I know exactly how I got here. However, I do hate to see them destroyed and would be happy to donate to keep them up. I actually am a great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, btw. Just so you don't think I'm some $#@! who wants to see them destroyed. I really don't and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.

    Imagine for a moment the memorials that will be erected 20 years from now...*shudders*
    I don't trust the average American to know the difference between heaven and hell because we had a huge amount of our country flocking to uncle bernie for free stuff. We need to revisit history if that ever happens.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.

    If they already own everything then they already own all of the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Muh asses.
    "Where's my mule?
    Where's my forty acres
    Where's my dream
    Mr Emancipator…"


  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I am not letting your pedantic refusal to argue against my comment win the argument. The crony capitalists own everything in this country, and they will own all of the government if you privatize everything people let them.
    Meh, call it pedantic if you wish. I call it preference for logic over #feelz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post

    If they already own everything then they already own all of the government.
    well sorry if the vernacular wasn't clear, they own the means to production, they can print money therefore they can buy everything except that which can't be bought, and that's currently things like public assets, they can currently use government force to take stuff away from individuals and give them to themselves, but not collective American government property and your rights that's currently the only thing not for sale. You can't buy a minuteman ICBM no matter how rich you are.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    well sorry if the vernacular wasn't clear, they own the means to production, they can print money therefore they can buy everything except that which can't be bought, and that's currently things like public assets, they can currently use government force to take stuff away from individuals and give them to themselves, but not collective American government property and your rights that's currently the only thing not for sale. You can't buy a minuteman ICBM no matter how rich you are.
    Like statues? Well, guess what? They're being taken down and thrown in the trash heap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

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