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Thread: And down come the monuments to the Confederacy....

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Take down 'racist' Theodore Roosevelt statue, activists tell New York museum
    Georgia Civil War Museum Shuts Down Rather Than Surrender Its Confederate Flags
    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...federate-flags
    Sort of shoots a hole in all that "take it off public property and put it in a museum" talk, doesn't it?

    And everybody acts shocked and indignant when blowback occurs.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...P=share_btn_tw



    I'll make you a deal. You can take down all the racist and imperialist Teddy Roosevelt statues you want, so long as you take down a racist and socialist Woody Wilson statue for each one.

    In fact, we might throw a money bomb and replace them all with Calvin Coolidge statues. He wasn't a racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  4. #123
    In the meantime statues of one of the worst racists in history are all over the place. Can't wait to see what happens when pro-abortion activists and racists go toe to toe over statues of Margaret Sanger.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I'll make you a deal. You can take down all the racist and imperialist Teddy Roosevelt statues you want, so long as you take down a racist and socialist Woody Wilson statue for each one.
    A progressive democrat.

    In fact, we might throw a money bomb and replace them all with Calvin Coolidge statues. He wasn't a racist.
    A limited government constitutional republican.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    A progressive democrat.



    A limited government constitutional republican.
    Yeah, I know. Everyone will be against it. Especially the press.

    But with God as my witness, the man wasn't racist!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Sort of shoots a hole in all that "take it off public property and put it in a museum" talk, doesn't it?
    Most museums seem to take tax dollars anyway...

  8. #127
    If kept on current course, this will lead to more chaos. Saner heads should prevail soon.

    TRUMP DEFIANT!
    HATE ON BOTH SIDES




    SHOWDOWN: NC SHERIFF PURSUES FELONIES FOR MONUMENT TOPPLING...

    'No one getting away'...


    Lincoln Memorial Vandalized...



    Protesters could be charged for bringing down Durham, N.C., Confederate statue
    18 mins ago - Woman arrested for bringing down Durham, N.C., Confederate statue ... renamed from Lee Park — was the site of a similar protest in May.
    Takilya Thompson used a ladder to scale the podium, climb the statue, and help pull it down.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3413284



    Social media connects Ohio to Charlottesville attack

    Posted by FOX19 Digital Media Staff

    FOX19 - People who attended the protests in Charlottesville over the weekend are being called out on social media.
    Commenters are attempting to identify the participants and, in one case, apparently recognized a former Mason High School student among the violence.
    http://www.wtol.com/story/36132730/s...esville-attack



    Statue of Martin Luther King on MLK Bridge vandalized

    TOLEDO, OH (WTOL) - Just one day after the holiday to celebrate Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the statue of the late civil rights leader that sits on the bridge that bears his name over the Maumee River was vandalized.
    http://www.wtol.com/story/11846562/s...dge-vandalized

  9. #128
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  11. #129
    Libertarian support for The Confederacy really bothers me. It was an evil police state; one of the most anti-liberty governments of all time. It's easy to criticize Lincoln and many things the Union did, but you can not be pro-liberty and also support the confederacy.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Libertarian support for The Confederacy really bothers me. It was an evil police state; one of the most anti-liberty governments of all time. It's easy to criticize Lincoln and many things the Union did, but you can not be pro-liberty and also support the confederacy.
    It was better than the union, in the context of history they were the better side and have been insufferably defamed.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It was better than the union, in the context of history they were the better side and have been insufferably defamed.
    In what way?

    Sure, the Civil War was a horrific event. Millions of dollars were wasted; hundreds of thousands of Americans died.

    But the Confederacy was a government literally devoted to keeping almost 40% of its people in bondage. No rights. Rape, torture, murder, mating like animals, the breaking up of families -- all permitted. People born into bondage and sold like cattle. It's sad that I even have to point this out. In many ways, the confederacy was worse than Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin.

    If you make a list of things Libertarians should be opposed to, slavery is at the top, no question. Worse than war. Worse than the end of private property. Feel free to rightly criticize the union and its policies, but if you support the confederacy, realize that you are the worst kind of statist.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    In what way?

    Sure, the Civil War was a horrific event. Millions of dollars were wasted; hundreds of thousands of Americans died.

    But the Confederacy was a government literally devoted to keeping almost 40% of its people in bondage. No rights. Rape, torture, murder, mating like animals, the breaking up of families -- all permitted. People born into bondage and sold like cattle. It's sad that I even have to point this out. In many ways, the confederacy was worse than Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin.

    If you make a list of things Libertarians should be opposed to, slavery is at the top, no question. Worse than war. Worse than the end of private property. Feel free to rightly criticize the union and its policies, but if you support the confederacy, realize that you are the worst kind of statist.

    Judging by this, I'm guessing you've never actually studied Stalin's reign in any significant detail. amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    In what way?

    Sure, the Civil War was a horrific event. Millions of dollars were wasted; hundreds of thousands of Americans died.

    But the Confederacy was a government literally devoted to keeping almost 40% of its people in bondage. No rights. Rape, torture, murder, mating like animals, the breaking up of families -- all permitted. People born into bondage and sold like cattle. It's sad that I even have to point this out. In many ways, the confederacy was worse than Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union under Stalin.

    If you make a list of things Libertarians should be opposed to, slavery is at the top, no question. Worse than war. Worse than the end of private property. Feel free to rightly criticize the union and its policies, but if you support the confederacy, realize that you are the worst kind of statist.
    Slavery was wrong but the south was on the way to getting rid of it, meanwhile Yankees were dedicated statists who had already discarded the constitution and sought to destroy the rights of all men.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post

    Judging by this, I'm guessing you've never actually studied Stalin's reign in any significant detail. amirite?
    Or the history of the civil war period.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Libertarian support for The Confederacy really bothers me. It was an evil police state; one of the most anti-liberty governments of all time. It's easy to criticize Lincoln and many things the Union did, but you can not be pro-liberty and also support the confederacy.
    I think that what the government told you about history is a lie, and that its really easy to condemn the opinions of people by calling them racist. It's even easier nowadays in conservative circles to discredit someone completely by implying that they are a reverse racist.

    It's such a winning move they are still doing it. They haven't brought down the tower of babel, we just have lost sight of the prize because the government has co-opted enough people into doing their bidding because they bribe them with bread and political theater.

    That being said -I think people remember the good more often then the bad - and people remember things emotionally . The Misinformation-Stream-Media wants us to think that (evil)speech isn't free, liberty is at stake here, this isn't about the confederacy or hate.

  18. #136
    I said "in many ways" not in all ways.

    In many ways, perhaps most ways, Stalin and Hitler were worse than the confederacy. The confederacy didn't round up and exterminate millions of people, for example, or wage wars of conquest. It didn't engage in purges. It wasn't obsessed with world domination. It just wanted to preserve its evil ways.

    But neither Stalin nor the Nazis participated in a systemic enslavement of almost half their population for the benefit of the aristocracy. (To be fair, you could argue that under Stalin, Soviet citizens were slaves to the state, and in some sense they were, but to a much more limited extent than American slaves.) They didn't make Germans or Russians have sex with each other to increase their own wealth. They didn't trade members of German or Russian families among each other. The SS and the NKVD didn't engage in systemic rape of German and Soviet women. etc.

    Obviously, I'm not trying to lessen the evils of Nazism or Stalinism here. Only to suggest that the confederacy was approaching that level of evil, and ought to be treated as such, particularly among those who claim to support liberty.



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    I said "in many ways" not in all ways.

    In many ways, perhaps most ways, Stalin and Hitler were worse than the confederacy. The confederacy didn't round up and exterminate millions of people, for example, or wage wars of conquest. It didn't engage in purges. It wasn't obsessed with world domination. It just wanted to preserve its evil ways.

    But neither Stalin nor the Nazis participated in a systemic enslavement of almost half their population for the benefit of the aristocracy. (To be fair, you could argue that under Stalin, Soviet citizens were slaves to the state, and in some sense they were, but to a much more limited extent than American slaves.) They didn't make Germans or Russians have sex with each other to increase their own wealth. They didn't trade members of German or Russian families among each other. The SS and the NKVD didn't engage in systemic rape of German and Soviet women. etc.

    Obviously, I'm not trying to lessen the evils of Nazism or Stalinism here. Only to suggest that the confederacy was approaching that level of evil, and ought to be treated as such, particularly among those who claim to support liberty.
    You can't be serious. Satire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  21. #138
    It's been a long time since I've signed in. Just wanted to say I miss 2008 and the liberty movement.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You can't be serious. Satire?
    Please tell me how a government whose existence was devoted to keeping almost half its population in total slavery from cradle to grave was in way compatible with the tenants of liberty.

    You'll fight against an income tax because you don't want the state to take a portion of your income, but you support the right of a person to own another human being? GTFO.
    Last edited by Blueskies; 08-15-2017 at 11:03 PM.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    (To be fair, you could argue that under Stalin, Soviet citizens were slaves to the state, and in some sense they were, but to a much more limited extent than American slaves..
    You can't argue moral platitudes like slavery being bad, then say that limited slavery is less bad. I think the term for what you are doing here is splitting hairs. You should decide for yourself fully, what you think slavery means, better yet, what you think liberty means. Then you can criticize people who want to celebrate the America culture. No one is arguing that we should bring back slavery, in fact lots of those "confederacy" defenders think that everyone has a different american experience, and even the one the government provides us with isn't fair sometimes. I don't think the black people in jail for nonviolent crimes feel very free right now.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You can't argue moral platitudes like slavery being bad, then say that limited slavery is less bad. I think the term for what you are doing here is splitting hairs. You should decide for yourself fully, what you think slavery means, better yet, what you think liberty means. Then you can criticize people who want to celebrate the America culture. No one is arguing that we should bring back slavery, in fact lots of those "confederacy" defenders think that everyone has a different american experience, and even the one the government provides us with isn't fair sometimes. I don't think the black people in jail for nonviolent crimes feel very free right now.
    Huh? What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China?

    My point is simply this: The Confederacy was a very evil, very anti-liberty government. One of the most anti-liberty governments in at least the last 300 years.

    So for someone who claims to support liberty, defending or sympathizing with the confederacy is hypocritical at best. At worst, it's suggestive of some deeply anti-liberty beliefs.

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Please tell me how a government whose existence was devoted to keeping almost half its population in total slavery from cradle to grave was in way compatible with the tenants of liberty.

    You'll fight against an income tax because you don't want the state to take a portion of your income, but you support the right of a person to own another human being? GTFO.
    Stop being an idiot, the south stood for much more than slavery (which they were on the way to eliminating), nobody alive wants to bring back slavery.
    The south believed in individual rights and limited government, they had inherited slavery but they were moving to end it, most southerners did not own slaves and were not fighting to keep them.
    The North had rejected the Constitution and wanted an all powerful government.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Stop being an idiot, the south stood for much more than slavery (which they were on the way to eliminating), nobody alive wants to bring back slavery.
    The south believed in individual rights and limited government, they had inherited slavery but they were moving to end it, most southerners did not own slaves and were not fighting to keep them.
    The North had rejected the Constitution and wanted an all powerful government.
    This is false, and complete revisionist history.

    Please read the declarations of independence of the various confederate states. Almost all of them cite slavery as the primary reason for this succession.

    And yes, the south really believed in individual rights. All those slaves had so many rights.

    Talk about an idiot. Try reading a history book sometime.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    This is false, and complete revisionist history.

    Please read the declarations of independence of the various confederate states. Almost all of them cite slavery as the primary reason for this succession.

    And yes, the south really believed in individual rights. All those slaves had so many rights.

    Talk about an idiot. Try reading a history book sometime.
    If you really want to know the truth try reading these threads.
    Causes of Southern Seccession- the Cotton States

    Causes of Southern Seccession- the Upper South

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Huh? What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China?

    My point is simply this: The Confederacy was a very evil, very anti-liberty government. One of the most anti-liberty governments in at least the last 300 years.

    So for someone who claims to support liberty, defending or sympathizing with the confederacy is hypocritical at best. At worst, it's suggestive of some deeply anti-liberty beliefs.
    Yeah because that's not the argument they are defending. You are being dishonest with yourself unless you at least acknowledge that much. No one is defending evil, I think that would be a different debate entirely. You might be lucky though, this argument will play out again, and it might even be a real debate.

    There will be checks of power against the government as they continue to put their feelers out and see what they can "get away with". Even Trump has started blaming congress on his problems and calling the news fake, which is what Obama did every day. He blamed Congress and what he called the WWF news.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you really want to know the truth try reading these threads.
    Causes of Southern Seccession- the Cotton States

    Causes of Southern Seccession- the Upper South
    That's cute and all, but I prefer to go straight to the horse's mouth:

    Texas: "maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy."

    Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth."

    Georgia: "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. "

    South Carolina: "increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution."

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    Please tell me how a government whose existence was devoted to keeping almost half its population in total slavery from cradle to grave was in way compatible with the tenants of liberty.
    D00d, you just compared the CSA to a regime literally responsible for the murder of millions of people. 1 milllion+ in the gulags alone. 20 million dead under Stalin alone. Figures by R. Medvedev:
    * One million imprisoned or exiled from 1927 to 1929, falsely accused of being saboteurs or members of opposition parties.
    * Nine million to 11 million of the more prosperous peasants driven from their lands and another two million to three million arrested or exiled in the early 1930's campaign of forced farm collectivization. Many of these were believed to have been killed.
    * Six million to seven million killed in the punitive famine inflicted on peasants in 1932 and 1933.
    * One million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935 for belonging to families of former nobility, merchants, capitalists and officials.
    * About one million executed in the ''great terror'' of 1937-38, and another four million to six million sent to forced labor camps from which most, including Mr. Medvedev's father, did not return.
    * Two million to three million sent to camps for violating absurdly strict labor laws imposed in 1940.
    * At least 10 million to 12 million ''repressed'' in World War II, including millions of Soviet-Germans and other ethnic minorities forcibly relocated.
    * More than one million arrested on political grounds from 1946 to Stalin's death in 1953.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    You'll fight against an income tax because you don't want the state to take a portion of your income, but you support the right of a person to own another human being? GTFO.
    You sure enjoy whacking strawmen. #notimpressed
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    D00d, you just compared the CSA to a regime literally responsible for the murder of millions of people. 1 milllion+ in the gulags alone. 20 million dead under Stalin alone. Figures by R. Medvedev:
    * One million imprisoned or exiled from 1927 to 1929, falsely accused of being saboteurs or members of opposition parties.
    * Nine million to 11 million of the more prosperous peasants driven from their lands and another two million to three million arrested or exiled in the early 1930's campaign of forced farm collectivization. Many of these were believed to have been killed.
    * Six million to seven million killed in the punitive famine inflicted on peasants in 1932 and 1933.
    * One million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935 for belonging to families of former nobility, merchants, capitalists and officials.
    * About one million executed in the ''great terror'' of 1937-38, and another four million to six million sent to forced labor camps from which most, including Mr. Medvedev's father, did not return.
    * Two million to three million sent to camps for violating absurdly strict labor laws imposed in 1940.
    * At least 10 million to 12 million ''repressed'' in World War II, including millions of Soviet-Germans and other ethnic minorities forcibly relocated.
    * More than one million arrested on political grounds from 1946 to Stalin's death in 1953.
    You sure enjoy whacking strawmen. #notimpressed
    You're strawmaning me.

    I said in some aspects. I didn't say the confederacy was worse than Stalin. Murder is of course horrible, but it's not the only way to violate someone's rights.

    Did Stalin forcibly breed Russians for his own enrichment? Did he keep a harem of women that he regularly raped?

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Antischism View Post
    I guess you aren't familiar with rhetorical questions.
    Guess you're not since you did not ask one.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueskies View Post
    That's cute and all, but I prefer to go straight to the horse's mouth:

    Texas: "maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy."

    Mississippi: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth."

    Georgia: "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. "

    South Carolina: "increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution."
    Arkansas Declaration

    “[upper south]Forced to chose between Lincolns demand and what they believed to be morally correct and Honorable..seceded as well”
    -Brevin Alexander Historian Professor of History at Longwood University

    “This convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas”

    “The people of this commonwealth are free men not slaves, and will defend to the last extremity, their honor, lives, and property, against northern mendacity and usurpation”
    -Arkansas Governor Henry Rector Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers

    Before Lincolns call for volunteers the people of Arkansas voted to stay in the union by a vote of 23,600 to 17,900. Than on March 4 1861 the Arkansas convention voted 40-35 to stay in the union with the president of the convention a unionist. On May 6th 1861 After Fort Sumtner and Lincolns call for men, Arkansas regathered this time only 5 votes went against secession, 4 of them would relent and join in succession in a short time. The before and after votes, as well as the Arkansas declaration for secession give the clear reasons for joining the confederacy.

    Tennessee

    “Tennessee will not Furnish a man for purposes of coercion, but 50,000 if necessary for the defense of our rights, and those of our southern brothers”
    -Tennessee Governor Isham Harris Response to Lincoln Calling on Tennessee for aid to Suppress the Rebellion in the Cotton States

    On February the 9th the same day that Mississippi left the union, Tennessee voters turned down secession by a 4-1 margin. However after Lincolns call to volunteers Governor Isham Harris wrote President Lincoln saying if the federal government was going to “coerce” the seceded states into returning, Tennessee had no choice but to join its Southern neighbors. Harris recalled the Tennessee legislature on May 6 for another vote this time to join the confederacy. Than on June 8 voters approved the measure by a 2-1 margin.

    Virginia

    “The principle now in contest between north and south is simply that of state sovereignty”
    Richmond Examiner Sep 11 1862

    “A union that can be only maintained by swords and bayonets... has no charm for me”
    -Robert E Lee


    Before Lincolns call for volunteers with slavery equally safe in the north or south, the slave state of Virginia on April 4th 1861 voted by a 2-1 margin to stay in the union. After Lincolns call for volunteers Virginia gathered again and by a vote of 126,000 to 20,400 Virginia left the union. In the minds of Virginians, that reason was Lincolns call to volunteers and the violation of state sovereignty. Virginia did not give a lengthy declaration of why it left the union [The voting showed already] just a short ordinance of secession.

    “the Constitution of the United States has invested Congress with the sole power "to declare war," and until such declaration is made, the President has no authority to call for an extraordinary force to wage offensive war against any foreign Power: and whereas, on the 15th inst., the President of the United States, in plain violation of the Constitution, issued a proclamation calling for a force of seventy-five thousand men, to cause the laws of the United states to be duly executed over a people who are no longer a part of the Union, and in said proclamation threatens to exert this unusual force to compel obedience to his mandates; and whereas, the General Assembly of Virginia, by a majority approaching to entire unanimity, declared at its last session that the State of Virginia would consider such an exertion of force as a virtual declaration of war, to be resisted by all the power at the command of Virginia; and subsequently the Convention now in session, representing the sovereignty of this State, has reaffirmed in substance the same policy, with almost equal unanimity; and whereas, the State of Virginia deeply sympathizes with the Southern States in the wrongs they have suffered, and in the position they have assumed; and having made earnest efforts peaceably to compose the differences which have severed the Union, and having failed in that attempt, through this unwarranted act on the part of the President; and it is believed that the influences which operate to produce this proclamation against the seceded States will be brought to bear upon this commonwealth, if she should exercise her undoubted right to resume the powers granted by her people, and it is due to the honor of Virginia that an improper exercise of force against her people should be repelled. Therefore I, JOHN LETCHER, Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, have thought proper to order all armed volunteer regiments or companies within this State forthwith to hold themselves in readiness for immediate orders, and upon the reception of this proclamation to report to the Adjutant-General of the State their organization and numbers, and prepare themselves for efficient service. Such companies as are not armed and equipped will report that fact, that they may be properly supplied.
    In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the Commonwealth to be affixed, this 17th day of April, 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the Commonwealth.
    Governor of Virginia JOHN LETCHER”.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1861/04/22/n....s-norfolk.html


    Virginia ordinance of secession

    “Declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States” [Cotton States the original succession states]

    “It was not for slavery that she [Virginia] deliberately resolved to draw the sword...but for this cornerstone [States Sovereignty] of all constitutional liberty north and south”
    -R.L Dabney 1867 A Defense of Virginia and the South


    Kentucky

    Kentucky originally acted on its sovereignty and remained neutral, however events forced it to join the war. The official Kentucky government was pro north by about about a 3-1 margin but chose to keep its neutrality. However there was gaining support for the south When Lincoln called for volunteers. The Kentucky Governor wrote "President Lincoln, I will send not a man nor a dollar for the wicked purpose of subduing my sister southern states.” Later neutrality would be violated by southern troops and the state would join the union, however a pro south Kentucky government was set up and was accepted by Jeff Davis into the confederacy on December the 10th as the 13th confederate state. States rights was the main cause for the pro south Kentucky government reason for secession.

    Kentucky Declaration For Leaving The Union

    “Whereas, the Federal Constitution, which created the Government of the United States, was declared by the framers thereof to be the supreme law of the land, and was intended to limit and did expressly limit the powers of said Government to certain general specified purposes, and did expressly reserve to the States and people all other powers whatever, and the President and Congress have treated this supreme law of the Union with contempt and usurped to themselves the power to interfere with the rights and liberties of the States and the people against the expressed provisions of the Constitution, and have thus substituted for the highest forms of national liberty and constitutional government a central despotism founded upon the ignorant prejudices of the masses of Northern society, and instead of giving protection with the Constitution to the people of fifteen States of this Union have turned loose upon them the unrestrained and raging passions of mobs and fanatics, and because we now seek to hold our liberties, our property, our homes, and our families under the protection of the reserved powers of the States, have blockaded our ports, invaded our soil, and waged war upon our people for the purpose of subjugating us to their will; and Whereas, our honor and our duty to posterity demand that we shall not relinquish our own liberty and shall not abandon the right of our descendants and the world to the inestimable blessings of constitutional government: Therefore, .... because we may choose to take part in a cause for civil liberty and constitutional government against a sectional majority waging war against the people and institutions of fifteen independent States of the old Federal Union, and have done all these things deliberately against the warnings and vetoes of the Governor and the solemn remonstrances of the minority in the Senate and House of Representatives: Therefore, .....have a right to establish any government which to them may seem best adapted to the preservation of their rights and liberties.”

    North Carolina

    North Carolina will “Be no party to this wicked violation of the laws of the country, and to this war upon the liberties of a free people”
    -North Carolina Governor John Ellis


    Having previously turned down even voting on secession, North Carolina responded to Lincolns call for volunteers by than unanimously adopted a secession ordinance, showing the impact it had on the state.

    “Lincoln has made a call for 75,000 men to be employed for the invasion of the peaceful homes of the South, and for the violent subversion of the liberties of a free people.. whereas, this high-handed act of tyrannical outrage is not only in violation of all constitutional law, in utter disregard of every sentiment of humanity and Christian civilization, and conceived in a spirit of aggression unparalleled by any act of recorded history, but is a direct step towards the subjugation of the whole South, and the conversion of a free Republic, inherited from our fathers, into a military despotism, to be established by worse than foreign enemies on the ruins of our once glorious Constitution of Equal Rights.Now, therefore, I, John W. Ellis, Governor of the State of North-Carolina, for these extraordinary causes, do hereby issue this, my Proclamation, notifying and requesting the Senators and Members of the House of Commons of the General Assembly of North-Carolina, to meet in Special Session at the Capitol, in the City of Raleigh, on Wednesday, the first day of May next. And I furthermore exhort all good citizens throughout the State to be mindful that their first allegiance is due to the Sovereignty which protects their homes and dearest interests, as their first sevice is due for the sacred defence of their hearths, and of the soil which holds the graves of our glorious dead.United action in defence of the sovereignty of North-Carolina and of the rights of the South, becomes now the duty of all.the 17th Day of April, A. D., 1861, and in the eight-fifth year of our independence.
    JOHN W. ELLIS
    http://www.learnnc.org/lp/multimedia/6542


    Missouri

    “Your requisition is illegal, unconstitutional, revolutionary, inhuman, diabolical, and cannot be complied with”
    -Missouri Governor Jackson Response to Lincolns call for Volunteers

    The slave state of Missouri was almost universally pro union. When the south sent delegates to try and convince the state to join the south, they were booed and jeered so that the CSA delegate could not even be heard. On March 21 1861 the Missouri convention voted 98-1 against secession, but in its sovereignty, kept its neutrality. Later many in the state became angry and felt their state sovereignty was violated during the “Camp Jackson Affair” with General Lyon capturing the arsenal in St Louis and when union soldiers opened fire on civilians and pro confederates killing dozens. Many felt the federal government was violating the states neutral position and support for secession grew rapid in the state. Lyon would than push the official Governor and state legislature out of Jefferson city.

    “The events in St Louis pushed many conditional unionist into the ranks of secessionist”
    -James McPherson Battle Cry of Freedom

    This led to a end to neutrality and both a pro confederate and pro union government in the state. Missouri was accepted on November 28th as the 12th confederate state. Pro south Missouri reasons for secession, centered around constitutional violations of the Lincoln administration.

    Missouri Declaration For leaving The Union


    “Has wantonly violated the compact originally made between said Government and the State of Missouri, by invading with hostile armies the soil of the State, attacking and making prisoners the militia while legally assembled under the State laws, forcibly occupying the State capitol, and attempting through the instrumentality of domestic traitors to usurp the State government, seizing and destroying private property, and murdering with fiendish malignity peaceable citizens, men, women, and children, together with other acts of atrocity, indicating a deep-settled hostility toward the people of Missouri and their institutions; and Whereas the present Administration of the Government of the United States has utterly ignored the Constitution, subverted the Government as constructed and intended by its makers, and established a despotic and arbitrary power instead thereof: Now, therefore, Be it enacted by the general assembly of the State of Missouri, That all political ties of every character new existing between the Government of the United States of America and the people and government of the State of Missouri are hereby dissolved, and the State of Missouri, resuming the sovereignty granted by compact to the said United States upon admission of said State into the Federal Union, does again take its place as a free and independent republic amongst the nations of the earth.”

    “Secessionists were well aware that slavery was under no immediate threat within the Union. Indeed, some anti-secessionists, especially those with the largest investment in slave property, argued that slavery was safer under the Union than in a new experiment in government.”
    -Clyde Wilson distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at the University of South Carolina

    “The condition of slavery in the several states would remain just the same weather it [the rebellion] succeeds or fails”
    -Secretary Seward to US Ambassador to France


    With slavery equally protected north or south and even more so in the north, the upper south states of VA, NC, TENN, ARK, KY, MO makes it hard to conclude slavery had much or anything to do with their reasons for leaving. When the original deep south states left the union, there were more slaves and more slave states remaining in the union, than within the newly formed confederacy. Most upper south state declarations did not even mention slavery or only in passing, and that usually associated with violations of states rights or the constitution. But they heavily spoke on states rights, states sovereignty and Lincolns call for volunteers as the reason for secession. Those states chose to stay with the union before Lincolns call for volunteers, that they saw as a massive violation of state sovereignty.

    “So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this, as regards Virginia especially, that I would cheerfully have lost all I have lost by the war, and have suffered all I have suffered, to have this object attained.”
    -Robert E Lee 1870


    Slavery was Safer in the Union Than the Confederacy


    “It was necessary to put the South at a moral disadvantage by transforming the contest from a war waged against states fighting for their Independence into a war waged against states fighting for the maintenance and extension of slavery…and the world, it might be hoped, would see it as a moral war, not a political; and the sympathy of nations would begin to run for the North, not for the South.”
    -Woodrow Wilson, “A History of The American People”

    “Howard county [MO] is true to the union” “our slaveholders think it is the sure bulwark of our slave property”
    -Abeil Lenord Whig party leader at the onset of the war

    Slavery in fact was safer in the union than had the confederacy been allowed to form. Slavery was in both the northern and southerner states for the entire civil war. It was constitutionally protected, Lincoln and the north supported the Corwin amendment that would have protected slavery forever in the the U.S constitution.

    “No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof[ slavery], including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.”
    -Corwin Amendment

    The united states supreme court had ruled in favor of the fugitive slave laws and the use of federal agents to return runaway slaves to their masters. A confederacy would have no protection for runaways north. Slavery was as secure as it had ever been for those southern slave states. Lincoln and the north did not invade the south to end slavery. Lincoln had no problem with the upper south slave states in the union such as Virginia as he called for volunteers to attack the deep south to repress the rebellion [not slavery]. The 1860 republican platform plank 4 said slavery was a state issue and they would not interfere with slavery. Lincoln also said the states had the right to chose on slavery and he would not interfere with slavery.

    “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere Untitled with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so”
    -Abraham Lincoln Inaugural address

    After the deep south left the union the federal government decided it would not end slavery in the house on Feb 1861 and senate march 2 1861. On July 22 1861 congress declared “This war is not waged , nor purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or established institutions [slavery] of those states.” October 8th 1861 the newspaper Washington D.C National Intelligence said “The existing war had no direct relation to slavery.”

    “Seven-tenths of our people owned no slaves at all, and to say the least of it, felt no great and enduring enthusiasm for its [slavery’s] preservation, especially when it seemed to them that it was in no danger.’ ”
    -John G. Barrett, The Civil War in North Carolina, p. 3

    Fight to Maintain Slavery? Or put Down Arms to Maintain Slavery?

    “As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.”
    -Confederate Major General John B. Gordon Causes of the Civil War

    If the south fought only for slavery,it only had to not fight the war. Slavery was protected and not under attack by Lincoln in the states it already existed. At any time as Lincoln promised, the south just had to lay down arms and come back into the union with slavery intact, yet they chose to fight for another cause.

    “The emancipation proclamation was actually an offer permitting the south to stop fighting and return to the union by January 1st and still keep its slaves”
    -John Canaan The Peninsula campaign

    “We were not fighting for the perpetuation of slavery, but for the principle of States Rights and Free Trade, and in defense of our homes which were being ruthlessly invaded.”
    -Moses Jacob Ezekiel

    Virginia alone freed more slaves prior to civil war than NY, NJ, Pennsylvania,and New England put together. South Carolinian Mary Chestnut said slavery was a curse, yet she supported secession. She and others hoped the war would end with a “Great independent country with no slavery.” On June 1861 Mary Chestnut said “Slavery has got to go of course.”

    Jefferson Davis CSA President/ Abraham Lincoln USA President

    “The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence.”
    -President Jefferson Davis, CSA

    It is interesting that both the CSA and USA presidents would agree that the war was not over slavery. Yet today we are told slavery was the sole cause of the war. In Jefferson Davis's farewell address to the US congress, his inaugural address in Montgomery as confederate president and second inaugural in Richmond, he explained liberty, states rights, tariffs and the founders were the main reason for states leaving the union. Jefferson barley mention slavery and only in passing in just one of the three important speeches. The south was leaving because Davis said the north fell to simple majority [Democracy not constitutional republic] what Davis called the “Tyranny of unbridled majority.” Near the end of the war Jefferson Davis sent a diplomat to both France and England to try and convince them to recognize the confederacy offering the confederacy would abolish slavery, yet keep their country. Instead what we are told to focus on is not the CSA presidents important speeches, but a speech by vice president Stevens as the sole cause for southern secession. Few things Jeff Davis and Abraham Lincoln would agree upon, but one is the war was not over slavery.

    “So long as I am president . It shall be carried on for the sole purpose of restoring the union”
    -Abraham Lincoln Aug 15 1864

    The confederate solder “Fought because he was provoked, intimidated, and ultimately invaded”
    -James Webb Born Fighting a History of the Scoth-Irish in America

    “To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of our modern age”.
    -James Webb-Secretary of Navy And Assistant Secretary of Defense

    To think the southern armies were full of non slave owning soldiers leaving their families and risking there lives so a few rich slave owners could keep there slaves is ridiculous. 80% of southern soldiers did not own slaves. In every major battle there were slave owning union soldiers fighting for the north, and non slave owning southern soldiers fighting for the south. In the book What They Fought For, 1861–1865 by James McPherson reported on his reading of hundreds of letters and diaries written by soldiers on both sides of the war on the question of what they believed they were fighting for. McPherson concluded that nearly all Confederate soldiers believed they “fought for liberty and independence from what they regarded as a tyrannical government.”As one Illinois officer explained, “We are fighting for the Union . . . a high and noble sentiment, but after all a sentiment. They are fighting for independence, and are animated by passion and hatred against invaders” “The letters and diaries of many Confederate soldiers bristled with the rhetoric of liberty and self-government and with expressions of a willingness to die for the cause.” An Alabamian solider wrote “When a Southerner homes is threatened the spirit of resistance is irresistible.”

    “Southerners also fought for abstracts- state sovereignty, the right of secession, the constitution as they interpreted it, the concept of a southern nation different from the American nation whose values had been corrupted by Yankees”
    -James McPherson Battle Cry of freedom

    “The south was fighting for independence, the north to restore the union...young southerners rushed to arms to defend home and family while like their revolutionary grandfathers- seeking a new Independence ”
    -James Robertson The Untold civil War Exploring The Human Side Of War National geographic

    In The Confederate war by Gary W Gallagher he quotes multiple soldiers letters home as saying the reason they were fighting was because of what they saw as northern tyranny, oppression and northern invasion. In the book the common solider of the civil war, The average southern soldiers diaries and letters to home barley even mentioned slavery, much less as a reason for fighting. It was because they were defending their homes and families and country, a few said because of power of government. Thousands of Californians [non slave owning state] volunteered for the confederacy. New jersey supplied at least two confederate generals. The confederate soldiers flags mottos talked of liberty, justice, freedom, and god, not of slavery as reason to fight.

    “Believe me no solider on either side gave a damn about slaves, they were fighting for other reasons entirely in their minds. Southerns thought they were fighting the second American revolution norther's thought they were fighting to hold the union together [With a few abolitionist and fire eaters on both sides].”
    -Historian Shelby Foote


    “I was fighting for my home, and he had no business being there”
    -Virginia confederate Solider Frank Potts

    “The revenues of the General Government are almost entirely derived from duties on importations. It is time that the northern consumer pays his proportion of these duties, but the North as a section receiving back in the increased prices of the rival articles which it manufactures nearly or quite as much as the imposts which it pays thus in effect paying nothing or very little for the support of the government.”
    -Florida causes of Secession

    “The people of the Southern States, whose almost exclusive occupation was agriculture, early perceived a tendency in the Northern States to render the common government subservient to their own purposes by imposing burdens on commerce as a protection to their manufacturing and shipping interests. Long and angry controversies grew out of these attempts, often successful, to benefit one section of the country at the expense of the other....abuse of the powers they had delegated to the Congress, for the purpose of enriching the manufacturing and shipping classes of the North at the expense of the South.... ”
    -Jefferson Davis Message to confederate Congress April 29, 1861 (Ratification of the Constitution)

    The Morrill Tariff Act passed the U.S. House of Representatives on May 10, 1860, on a sectional vote, with nearly all northern representatives in support and nearly all southern representatives in opposition. With the election of Abraham Lincoln whose central campaign objective was to triple the tariff. Tariff was the “keystone” of the republican party “protection for home industry” was the campaign poster of the 1860 republican party. South Carolina did what it had done decades before, and seceded from the Union over the higher tariff rates soon to be imposed on the south by the north. It was not just the south, NYC mayor Fernando Wood wanted to make NYC a “free city” [free trade] and secede from the Union. The debate over tariffs and internal improvements was not just a debate over those items, but a debate over the nature of the federal government. Free trade was a vital aspect of southern agrarian interests. The CSA Constitution allowed for free trade. In Jefferson Davis inaugural speech in Montgomery Alabama he stated the following.

    “An agricultural people, whose chief interest is the export of a commodity required in every manufacturing country, our true policy is peace, and the freest trade, which our necessities will permit. It is alike our interest, and that of all those to whom we would sell and from whom we would buy, that there should be the fewest practicable restrictions upon the interchange of commodities. There can be but little rivalry between ours and any manufacturing or navigating community, such as the Northeastern States of the American Union.”

    “The majority section may legislate imperiously and ruinously to the interests of the minority section not only without injury but to great benefit and advantage of their own section. In proof of this we need only refer to the fishing bounties, the monopoly of the coast navigation which is possessed almost exclusively by the Northern States and in one word the bounties to every employment of northern labor and capital such a government must in the nature of things and the universal principles of human nature and human conduct very soon lead as it has done to a grinding and degrading despotism.”
    -Florida Declaration of Causes of Secession

    The very mature of the government was at stake in the fight over western territories. This political battle even turned to blood in Missouri/Kansas. The south was shown that even when unified, it could still be controlled by the growing urban population of the north and “mob rule” such as in the case with tariffs and the election of Lincoln. Both sides also saw the newer territories become states in the west as vital to control of congress. If these states were allowed to decide on their own slave or free, than the south might maintain agrarian, free trade, policies. If they were to all become free, than northern industrialist would dominate congress and High tariffs and internal improvements would rise.

    “We had had experience of the fact, that our partner-States of the North, who were in a majority, had trampled upon the rights of the Southern minority, and we desired, as the only remedy, to dissolve the partnership......liberty is always destroyed by the multitude, in the name of liberty. Majorities within the limits of constitutional restraints are harmless, but the moment they lose sight of these restraints, the many-headed monster becomes more tyrannical, than the tyrant with a single head; numbers harden its conscience, and embolden it, in the perpetration of crime. And when this majority, in a free government, becomes a faction, or, in other words, represents certain classes and interests to the detriment of other classes, and interests, farewell to public liberty; the people must either become enslaved, or there must be a disruption of the government. ”
    -Confederate Admiral Raphael Semmes 1868

    Between 1800-1850 the House was controlled by the north but the south could block anything from the north in the senate. However with the edition of states like Minnesota 1858 Oregon 1859 and Kansas 1861 for the first time the north controlled the senate. Lincoln said he would not allow any more slave states into the union [Southerns felt a excuse for northern political dominance of both house and senate for his wanted major tariff increases] The south had seen their political power over tariffs in recent decades decline, and now saw the attack on slavery into new territories as a attack on the whole economic system of the south by the majority or mob of the north. The south saw the loss of political power, economic power and rights granted by the constitution under threat from the majority north. a Georgian sated “we are either slaves in the union or free men out of it”

    “Nothing but increasingly galling economical exploitation by the dominate sector and the rapid reduction of the south to political impotence”
    -Robert William Fogel The Rise and Fall of American Slavery

    “Equality and safety in the union are at an end”
    -Howell Cobb of Georgia 1860

    “The South's concept of republicanism had not changed in three-quarters of a century; the North's had. With complete sincerity the South fought to preserve its version of the republic of the Founding Fathers--a government of limited powers that protected the rights of property, including slave property, and whose constituency comprised an independent gentry and yeomanry of the white race undisturbed by large cities, heartless factories, restless free workers, and class conflict. The accession of the Republican party, with its ideology of competitive, egalitarian, free-labor capitalism, was a signal to the South that the Northern majority had turned irrevocably toward this frightening future."
    -James M. McPherson Ante-bellum Southern Exceptionalism

    “If their was not a slave from Aroostock to the sabine, the north and the south could never permanent agree”
    -Richmond Daily Whig April 23, 1862

    Northern Violations of the Constitution

    “announce a revolution in the government and to substitute an aggregate popular majority for the written constitution without which no single state would have voted its adoption not forming in truth a federal union but a consolidated despotism that worst of despotisms that of an unrestricted sectional and hostile majority, we do not intend to be misunderstood, we do not controvert the right of a majority to govern within the grant of powers in the Constitution.
    -Florida Declaration of causes of secession

    “The north sought to convert a union of brotherhood and mutual benefit into a “nation” which they would dominate in their own interests”
    -Clyde Wilson University of South Carolina Professor

    “We are fighting for the god given rights of liberty and independence as handed down to us in the constitution by our fathers”
    -Confederate General John B Gordon to Pennsylvanian woman at York 1863

    “I believe most solemley that it is for constitutional liberty”
    -Confederate General Leonidas Polk June 22 1861 Reasons for Southern Secession

    The south saw the north as violating the constitution in many ways. The south thought their liberties threatened by a growing northern majority and political influence. Had the constitution not been violated, and their rights maintained, there would have been no need to separate. The south saw the tariffs aimed at certain industry [southern export] as a violation of the constitution. They saw the north's attempt to use that money to benefit the Norths wanted internal improvements as another violation of the constitution. The federal government under the control of Lincoln sought to violate the 10th amendment and states rights by not allowing the western states to decide on slavery, instead the federal government would overpower the states, and violate the constitution to the benefit of northern polices. The south complained that many northern states the refusal to obey the fugitive slave laws were a violation of the constitution and recognizance of southern property.

    “If the south did not protect itself against the north, its whole way of life would be destroyed”
    -E Merton Coulter The Confederate States of America Louisiana State university Press

    “Northern population was increasing, by immigration and other causes, in a greater ratio than the population of the South. By degrees, as the Northern States gained preponderance in the National Congress, self-interest taught their people to yield ready assent to any plausible advocacy of their right as a majority to govern the minority without control. They learned to listen with impatience to the suggestion of any constitutional impediment to the exercise of their will, and so utterly have the principles of the Constitution been corrupted in the Northern mind that, in the inaugural address delivered by President Lincoln in March last, he asserts as an axiom, which he plainly deems to be undeniable, of constitutional authority, that the theory of the Constitution requires that in all cases the majority shall govern; and in another memorable instance the same Chief Magistrate did not hesitate to liken the relations between a State and the United States to those which exist between a county and the State in which it is situated and by which it was created.”
    -Jefferson Davis Message to Congress April 29, 1861 (Ratification of the Constitution)

    “Let not slavery prove a barrier to our independence...although slavery is one of the principles that we started to fight for... if it proves an insurmountable obstacle to the achievement of our liberty and separate nationality, away with it”
    -The Jackson Mississippian 1864 quoted in McPherson's Battle cry of Freedom p 833

    There is even more in those threads you should really try reading them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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