And down come the monuments to the Confederacy....

[juleswin]

Yes, but like many pieces of art, it illustrates a certain truth.There is no denying that there are and always have been people who want to alter or wash historical facts from mass consciousness. (John Taylor Gatto talks about this inhis books and lectures on public schooling. He who controls people's understandingof the past can manipulate how they think about the present andfuture.

The point is that they've already altered the history behind the man, everybody but a small fringe minority still believe the civil war was about something else other than slavery. They achieved this without changing any dates or removing any statues. Think WWII and even a smaller minority believe Hitler did not gas the jews. My point is that the state can achieve all of this without ever moving monuments.

I think this whole incident is their way of painting the non establishment movement on the right as neo Nazis.

[Antischism]

Among other things. It was an agrarian economy at the time. As even Ron Paul points out, slavery would've died out with automation like it did everywhere else in the first world.

Not only does that argument rely on hindsight, but it's patently absurd to suggest it would have been preferable for slaves to wait in the hopes that their masters would one day be kind enough to let them go. This also ignores the fact that a commercially viable cotton-harvesting machine wasn't available until after World War II.

[tod evans]

If the slaves of years gone by are important to you then gather money and build them a $#@!ing monument.

Leave other peoples monuments alone.

[Anti Federalist]

To preserve their slave economy. You can't disentangle the two. You can champion secession without glorifying old racists.

It was the concepts and philosophy and religion of white westerners that provided the impetus to abolish slavery.

[Swordsmyth]

Not only does that argument rely on hindsight, but it's patently absurd to suggest it would have been preferable for slaves to wait in the hopes that their masters would one day be kind enough to let them go. This also ignores the fact that a commercially viable cotton-harvesting machine wasn't available until after World War II.

The abolition movement started in the south, the south was already on the way to ending slavery peacefully, Lincoln had no intention of ending slavery until he needed a propaganda boost for the war effort.

[Anti Federalist]

This is because all human record(99% sure of this) will never be stored in the clouds.

You know how many times over my life I have heard "that will never happen", especially when it comes to political oppression or government control or technological horrors?

Enough to dismiss anybody who says it, out of hand.

[heavenlyboy34]

Not only does that argument rely on hindsight, but it's patently absurd to suggest it would have been preferable for slaves to wait in the hopes that their masters would one day be kind enough to let them go. This also ignores the fact that a commercially viable cotton-harvesting machine wasn't available until after World War II.

Preferableto a bloody invasion? Yes. A better alternative, if the goal reallywas an immediate end to slavery would've been to buy all the slaves and emancipate them.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

Funny name for someone being so inflammatory and divisive here. . .

thought said he was outta here already. . .

[donnay]

You do know "1984" is a work of fiction. But even if it was non fiction, the state cannot destroy/rewrite every book, only some statues are being removed, dates cannot be altered because there are just too many places the with dates of events recorded. The totalitarian world described in 1984 is not what we are facing where removing a statues somehow removes the information about Robert Lee.

Its cool quoting 1984, but this one doesn't apply in our society.

It's the globalists playbook.

[jllundqu]

That's the end game. The Constitution was a racist document therefore it is illegitimate. Bring on full scale Democracy. Death to the Republic.

BRING. IT. ON.

One side has 200 million guns, the other side doesn't know which restroom to use.

[juleswin]

It can happen here, if the left gains unfettered control of the reigns of government for a long enough time they will indulge their wildest fantasies, we are all that stops them.

I try not to say never to any scenario happening but how likely is it that the left would get in govt and start rewriting history in the way described in 1984? I say very small. But lemme just talk about this whole left v right talk. To tell you the truth, I get very depressed whenever I hear anyone on this site still believing that there is a meaningful difference between the two sides. Its the sort of feeling you get when playing a game of basketball and then realizing that your team mate have no idea how to score.

You set yourself up for perpetual failure if you haven't realized at this point that the left and right are working together and both attack different aspects of your freedom.

[Swordsmyth]

I try not to say never to any scenario happening but how likely is it that the left would get in govt and start rewriting history in the way described in 1984? I say very small. But lemme just talk about this whole left v right talk. To tell you the truth, I get very depressed whenever I hear anyone on this site still believing that there is a meaningful difference between the two sides. Its the sort of feeling you get when playing a game of basketball and then realizing that your team mate have no idea how to score.

You set yourself up for perpetual failure if you haven't realized at this point that the left and right are working together and both attack different aspects of your freedom.

The false right IS bad, but the left is worse and there are NO good leftists.

[enhanced_deficit]

This should not be allowed to turn in statue wars between Alt-Right and Alt-Left or Ctrl-Right and Ctrl-Left etc. Sanctity of freedom of speech for all parties should be observed when proper permits have been obtained for democratic protests.

Also in the past there had been fakenews mixed with real news, has this been confirmed from reliable sources?



Fakenews:

May 18, 2017While it is true the Davis statue was removed last week, a decision that was met with both support and backlash, it is not being replaced with an Obama monument. The bronze Obama statue pictured in the fake news report is real but is not being placed anywhere in New Orleans. The statue, which was also at the center of a fake Oval Office story, is actually located in Puerto Rico.
image: http://cdn.business2community.com/wp...oxNewsFake.jpg

Read more at http://www.business2community.com/go...atire-01846210





Realnews:

Barack Obama statue removed from Jakarta park after protests

Indonesian authorities removed a statue of President Barack Obama from a park in the capital Jakarta due to a public backlash when it was erected.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-protests.html

[juleswin]

The false right IS bad, but the left is worse and there are NO good leftists.

You know leftist also believe that Obama is false left and some even believe that Bernie Sanders too is false left. At the moment, the false right and left are the only games in town and those two work together to screw us all. Btw, I am including Clinton loving Trump as part of the false right.

[Anti Federalist]

To tell you the truth, I get very depressed whenever I hear anyone on this site still believing that there is a meaningful difference between the two sides.

There is a difference, and it is significant and substantial.

There's no rational understanding to be had.

Look at left wing SJWs and feminists supporting Islamic Sharia law.

That's why I find the left wing much more dangerous than the "right".

The "right" in this case wants to survive and flourish and they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they are being hamstrung and forced out and marginalized and becoming unwelcome strangers in their own land, all at the hands of nefarious machinations, Joos, or the TPTB. And on that last point, TPTB, they may very well be correct.

The left, however, are truly unhinged, in that they hate themselves even more than they hate the "right".

From abortion to infanticide to Malthusian doomsday-ism propagated by global warming nonsense, these people are a multi million strong, self loathing, suicidal death cult, tens of millions of latter day Jim Jones followers, ready, willing and eager to expand death on all fronts, because they see themselves as a virus, a cancer, a plague on Mother Earth.

But they see you and me as even more of a threat.

And make no mistake, if they ever come to full power, they will make damn sure to take as many of us with them as they can.

I used to not believe that, that maybe we could "reach out" and found common cause with the left, Occupy and so on...

I no longer think that.

[Swordsmyth]

You know leftist also believe that Obama is false left and some even believe that Bernie Sanders too is false left. At the moment, the false right and left are the only games in town and those two work together to screw us all. Btw, I am including Clinton loving Trump as part of the false right.

There are good people on the right, there are none on the left.
The right is right the left is wrong,the false right is wrong the false left is worse.

[acptulsa]

But even if it was non fiction, the state cannot destroy/rewrite every book...

This caused me to go looking for something on Sinclair Lewis' book It Can't Happen Here. And not just because of the irony he intended in his title, but because he was right to say it can happen here. It is happening here. The techniques he outlined are being used here now. And then I discovered the book is being held up by, well, apparently everyone as a way to examine the rise of Trump.

Those techniques are being used by 'The Left' just as much as by everyone else. The only reasons some might find it has more to resemblance to 'The Right' are purely superficial. The form of the movement in the book might resemble Trump and his minions more, but the substance, the techniques, the nature of the manipulation applies equally to both of these artificially created 'sides'.

But lemme just talk about this whole left v right talk. To tell you the truth, I get very depressed whenever I hear anyone on this site still believing that there is a meaningful difference between the two sides. Its the sort of feeling you get when playing a game of basketball and then realizing that your team mate have no idea how to score.

You set yourself up for perpetual failure if you haven't realized at this point that the left and right are working together and both attack different aspects of your freedom.

This. And more to the point, 'Left' and 'Right' are being used to keep us at each others' throats over trivialities, giving the real 'Them' room to rob the real 'Us' with complete impunity.

The false right IS bad, but the left is worse and there are NO good leftists.

Do you know any? You're caught up in the trivialities, too. You refuse to associate with any liberals, you judge and categorize them out of hand, and that's how they divide us from potential allies.

And conquer us.

The 'Left' and the 'Right' are exactly the same in one respect. They both have people who think their philosophy is genuinely the way to preserve, protect and defend individual rights, they both have people who are would-be tinpot dictators and make useful idiots, they both contain arrogant fools, and their leaders are all in cahoots with each other and playing us.

There are good leftists. No one points cameras at them. Their posts get scrubbed from Fedbook, and their vids get pulled from YouBoobToob. Your friends dismiss them out of hand, and encourage you to not even talk to them. Your neighbors may be them, but who talks to their neighbors any more when there's a TV show coming on? Some can be found at church, but who goes to church any more--or hangs around after the service and misses the early NFL game kickoff? They even get banned from this site, where they used to be welcome because they are reasonable, due to pressure from a vocal minority.

Divided and conquered--and bragging about it.

The right is right the left is wrong,the false right is wrong the false left is worse.

Being right does not make a person good, and being wrong does not make a person bad. Indeed, being wrong does not even guarantee a person is a useful idiot, and being right does not even guarantee a person is not a useful idiot.

[Swordsmyth]

This caused me to go looking for something on Sinclair Lewis' book It Can't Happen Here. And not just because of the irony he intended in his title, but because he was right to say it can happen here. It is happening here. The techniques he outlined are being used here now. And then I discovered the book is being held up by, well, apparently everyone as a way to examine the rise of Trump.

Those techniques are being used by 'The Left' just as much as by everyone else. The only reasons some might find it has more to resemblance to 'The Right' are purely superficial. The form of the movement in the book might resemble Trump and his minions more, but the substance, the techniques, the nature of the manipulation applies equally to both of these artificially created 'sides'.



This. And more to the point, 'Left' and 'Right' are being used to keep us at each others' throats over trivialities, giving the real 'Them' room to rob the real 'Us' with complete impunity.



Do you know any? You're caught up in the trivialities, too. You refuse to associate with any liberals, you judge and categorize them out of hand, and that's how they divide us from potential allies.

And conquer us.

The 'Left' and the 'Right' are exactly the same in one respect. They both have people who think their philosophy is genuinely the way to preserve, protect and defend individual rights, they both have people who are would-be tinpot dictators and make useful idiots, they both contain arrogant fools, and their leaders are all in cahoots with each other and playing us.

There are good leftists. No one points cameras at them. Their posts get scrubbed from Fedbook, and their vids get pulled from YouBoobToob. Your friends dismiss them out of hand, and encourage you to not even talk to them. Your neighbors may be them, but who talks to their neighbors any more when there's a TV show coming on? Some can be found at church, but who goes to church any more--or hangs around after the service and misses the early NFL game kickoff? They even get banned from this site, where they used to be welcome because they are reasonable, due to pressure from a vocal minority.

Divided and conquered--and bragging about it.

By definition the left wants government to take my money and control me, there are no good leftists.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

This should not be allowed to turn in statue wars between Alt-Right and Alt-Left or Ctrl-Right and Ctrl-Left etc. Sanctity of freedom of speech for all parties should be observed when proper permits have been obtained for democratic protests.

Also in the past there had been fakenews mixed with real news, has this been confirmed from reliable sources?



Fakenews:

May 18, 2017While it is true the Davis statue was removed last week, a decision that was met with both support and backlash, it is not being replaced with an Obama monument. The bronze Obama statue pictured in the fake news report is real but is not being placed anywhere in New Orleans. The statue, which was also at the center of a fake Oval Office story, is actually located in Puerto Rico.
image: http://cdn.business2community.com/wp...oxNewsFake.jpg

Read more at http://www.business2community.com/go...atire-01846210





Realnews:

Barack Obama statue removed from Jakarta park after protests

Indonesian authorities removed a statue of President Barack Obama from a park in the capital Jakarta due to a public backlash when it was erected.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-protests.html

you mean his boys don't got his back in Java ?

[acptulsa]

By definition the left wants government to take my money and control me, there are no good leftists.

There are those of 'The Left' who never knew a time when 'The Right' wasn't taking people's home on the pretext that they, or their children, or their grandchildren, were drug dealers, and trying to control they way people talked about their splendid little wars. Are they on 'The Left' to control you and take your money, or are they merely trying to resist the drug warriors and neocons?

Go find them and actually talk to them, and find out. Until you do, you won't know who all your potential allies are, and you won't gain a real, deep down, instinctive understanding of how our real enemies are dividing and conquering us.

[juleswin]

There is a difference, and it is significant and substantial.

I will tell you right now that I am not afraid of the SJWs or feminists or sharia law. Those issues are no where near the top of my worry list.

As for the right just wanting to survive, thrives and being hamstrung my TPTB, joos etc, I call BS on it. These people are TPTB and most of the time work with the zionists. Also, I see nobody supporting infanticide other than the people bombing villages filled with children in the middle east and North Africa. I have no problem with abortion, if anything I support abortion.

As for things like global warming and universal health care, you have to realize that some of these policies came out of the right or people the right hold in high regard. Churchill was a bigger supporter of the NHS and Thatcher was the first politician to make global warming a global issue.

“The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear: Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the sane way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion….Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available.”

Winston Churchill



So in my opinion, I don't see any good reason to side with one over the other. At best, I see both sides playing good cop, bad cop game on me and I refuse to side with one over the other.

[Swordsmyth]

There are those of 'The Left' who never knew a time when 'The Right' wasn't taking people's home on the pretext that they, or their children, or their grandchildren, were drug dealers, and trying to control they way people talked about their splendid little wars. Are they on 'The Left' to control you and take your money, or are they merely trying to resist the drug warriors and neocons?

Go find them and actually talk to them, and find out. Until you do, you won't know who all your potential allies are, and you won't gain a real, deep down, instinctive understanding of how our real enemies are dividing and conquering us.

Every leftist I have known or heard of wants more taxes and regulations, they may be right on a few issues that we are right on but they are fundamentally anti-liberty, they just care about their own pet issues when the big government they built gets in their way.

[Anti Federalist]

I will tell you right now that I am not afraid of the SJWs or feminists or sharia law. Those issues are no where near the top of my worry list.

You missed my point utterly, if that's what you took away from my post.

But, whatever.

As for the right just wanting to survive, thrives and being hamstrung my TPTB, joos etc, I call BS on it. These people are TPTB and most of the time work with the zionists.

Zuh? They work for zionists?

AcpTulsa made a valid point in a previous post about "getting out and talking to people".

I have, and I'm here to tell you these people are real, and, to paraphrase a point made months ago, a West Virginia coal miner, out of work for two years, living in a trailer house and driving a 25 year old truck, is getting pretty fed up at being lectured about his "white privilege" by a Harvard educated black woman making $250,000 a year as a corporate "diversity officer".

Also, I see nobody supporting infanticide

Search is your friend.

More Ethicists Come Out in Support of Infanticide

https://catholicmoraltheology.com/mo...f-infanticide/

I have no problem with abortion, if anything I support abortion.

Well, that's a shame.

As for things like global warming and universal health care, you have to realize that some of these policies came out of the right or people the right hold in high regard. Churchill was a bigger supporter of the NHS

I never said a thing about health care, but yeah, sure, valid point, RomneyCare as so forth.

So in my opinion, I don't see any good reason to side with one over the other. At best, I see both sides playing good cop, bad cop game on me and I refuse to side with one over the other.

Never claimed to take sides either.

Just making the case, that I stand by, that there are significant differences in motivation, reasoning and results desired.

Based on that assessment, I remain convinced that the "left" is by far the greater threat.

[phill4paul]

Just wanted to point out real quick that the statue that was torn down in Durham was erected for the soldiers that fought for the Confederacy. Probably lost on these protesters was the fact that many of the soldiers that fought and died were conscripted and had no choice. Not every soldier that fought for the Confederacy believed in slavery or the cause of the Confederacy, just as not every soldier that fought for the North believed in a war to end slavery and the cause of the Union.

[Brian4Liberty]

The Taliban and ISIL have been pretty good at removing outdated monuments, statues, art, etc.

Perhaps some of them can be brought to the US as consultants on best practices.

[acptulsa]

So in my opinion, I don't see any good reason to side with one over the other. At best, I see both sides playing good cop, bad cop game on me and I refuse to side with one over the other.

And the more history is discredited, scrubbed, demonized and redefined as immoral, and the more historical figures are judged by the standard of a much more enlightened age than their own, the easier it will be for the populace to be played in this, to quote Orwell, 'endless present where the State can do no wrong.'

Are these statues worth crying over? Lee was memorialized for many, many more reasons than someone misses their slaves. Tear down the statue and it's harder to convince someone who just fell of the turnip truck that history--or the present, for that matter--has depth and complexity.

Yes, books survive. But their numbers are diminished. Whether Bradburian 'fire departments' come after them or not.

Every leftist I have known or heard of wants more taxes and regulations, they may be right on a few issues that we are right on but they are fundamentally anti-liberty, they just care about their own pet issues when the big government they built gets in their way.

Careful. You call them anti-liberty because they disagree with you on your 'own pet issues'.

Libertarians traditionally agreed with Democrats on social issues and Republicans on economic issues. The Powers that be are driving the wedge by obfuscating to Democrats our social tolerance, and getting Republicans worked up about things other than fiscal irresponsibility. So, people who identify with either 'side of the aisle' are alienated from us.

Why would you help them do that?

Just wanted to point out real quick that the statue that was torn down in Durham was erected for the soldiers that fought for the Confederacy.

Good luck getting the word out on that. Saying that soldiers sometimes get duped into fighting for one thing when they think they're fighting for something else entirely is probably the quickest way to get yourself censored or shouted down in the U.S. today.

[Swordsmyth]

Also, I see nobody supporting infanticide other than the people bombing villages filled with children in the middle east and North Africa. I have no problem with abortion, if anything I support abortion.

Abortion kills more people than US wars, right thinking people oppose both.

As for things like global warming and universal health care, you have to realize that some of these policies came out of the right or people the right hold in high regard. Churchill was a bigger supporter of the NHS and Thatcher was the first politician to make global warming a global issue.

Winston Churchill



So in my opinion, I don't see any good reason to side with one over the other. At best, I see both sides playing good cop, bad cop game on me and I refuse to side with one over the other.

There has not been a single major (or maybe any at all) European politician in the 20th or 21st centuries that was anything better than a statist pinko, the Eurpean "right" is well within the democrat parties ideological spectrum.

[Brian4Liberty]

The proliferation of flash drives and external hard drives assures me that people are still storing their data in hardware. I have the videos of just about every conspiracy theory videos I like, copies of all my pics, still keep hard copy books and I am sure I am not the only person doing this.

At this point in time, it would be almost impossible for the state to change dates of important events. This is because all human record(99% sure of this) will never be stored in the clouds.

Impossible?

The point is that they've already altered the history behind the man, everybody but a small fringe minority still believe the civil war was about something else other than slavery. They achieved this without changing any dates or removing any statues. Think WWII and even a smaller minority believe Hitler did not gas the jews. My point is that the state can achieve all of this without ever moving monuments.

Or already happening?

[Antischism]

Preferableto a bloody invasion? Yes. A better alternative, if the goal reallywas an immediate end to slavery would've been to buy all the slaves and emancipate them.

Compensated emancipation in the US, while obviously a preferable solution in theory, would have amounted to roughly $2.88b in 1855 in order to emancipate every slave in the South. To put that in perspective, by GDP, the entire US economy was worth about $3.96b at the time. The figures we're looking at would just be enough for slave owners to break even. If the US had compensated slaveholders in the South even double what the British did, it would have been a paltry sum not worth considering.

You also need to consider that in the US South, slaves were not just workers but a form of capital. While they could depreciate in value due to old age, they were assets that could be sold and even yield greater wealth through child birth given that the children of slaves would then become the slave master's property that they could sell at market.

To compare with the British Caribbean, slaves were mainly used as cheap labor, not as capital; furthermore, compensation was paid for by most of the British nation via taxation — across the whole of the national economy. In the US, it would fall almost entirely on Northern states to compensate the South, and to make that politically viable for electors, they would need to somehow convince non-slaveholders to pay an enormous amount of money to abolish slavery — which would have been difficult no matter the moral ground.

While we tend to focus on the economics of slavery, another important aspect was the psychological and cultural aspect of it: The culture of white supremacy and slave holding among the elite. Generally, the elite viewed freedom purely through the lens of property rights, not personal liberty. In other words, being free meant owning property without limits; not being free meant to be property. Not only was it a form of capital and labor, but slaves were also an indicator of social status. It was deeply ingrained into Southern culture. They viewed slavery as a moral good! They convinced themselves that they were doing everyone a favor by upholding the institution of slavery! You were dealing with both economics and a twisted sense of morality.

Taking all of this into account, I honestly don't see how compensated emancipation would have been a realistic alternative, sadly.

Frankly, outside of compensated emancipation, an outcome where every slave master was imprisoned or shot in the head if they refused to release their slaves would have been just fine, John Brown style.

[Swordsmyth]

Careful. You call them anti-liberty because they disagree with you on your 'own pet issues'.

Libertarians traditionally agreed with Democrats on social issues and Republicans on economic issues. The Powers that be are driving the wedge by obfuscating to Democrats our social tolerance, and getting Republicans worked up about things other than fiscal irresponsibility. So, people who identify with either 'side of the aisle' are alienated from us.

Why would you help them do that?

What is not anti liberty about taxes and regulations?
I call them anti liberty because they are, some people on the right oppose the things that republicans do that are wrong nobody on the left opposes taxes and regulations.
Perhaps you are confusing anarchists with leftists? My disagreements with anarchists are different and I would not say there are no good anarchists.