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Thread: Tyranny at Nuremberg

  1. #1

    Default Tyranny at Nuremberg

    The problem, of course, was that at Nuremberg people were tried on the basis of ex post facto law—law that did not exist at the time of their actions for which they were convicted.
    Moreover, the sentence—death by hanging—was decided prior to the trial and prior to the selection of defendants.
    Moreover, the defendants were chosen and then a case was made against them.
    Exculpatory evidence was withheld. Charges on which defendants were convicted turned out to be untrue.
    The trials were so loaded in favor of the prosecution that defense was pro forma.
    The defendants were abused and some were tortured.
    The defendants were encouraged to give false witness against one another, which for the most part the defendants refused to do, with Albert Speer being the willing one. His reward was a prison sentence rather than death.
    The defendants’ wives and children were arrested and imprisoned.

    President Franklin D. Roosevelt, General Eisenhower, and Winston Churchill thought that surviving Nazis should be shot without trial. Roosevelt laughed about liquidating 50,000 German military officers. Eisenhower told Lord Halifax that Nazi leaders should be shot while trying to escape, the common euphemism for murder. Russians spoke of castrating German men and breeding German women to annihilate the German race. US Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau wanted to reduce Germany to an agrarian society and send able-bodied Germans to Africa as slaves to work on “some big TVA project.”

    The ex post facto law under which Germans were sentenced to death and to prison also criminalized the terror bombing of German and Japanese cities by the British and US air forces. Yet, the law was only applied to the Germans in the dock. In his book, Apocalypse 1945: The Destruction of Dresden (1995), Irving quotes US General George C. McDonald’s dissent from the directive to bomb civilian cities such as Dresden. Gen. McDonald characterized the directive as the “extermination of populations and the razing of cities,” war crimes under the Nuremberg standard.

    There was a time in Anglo-American law when the improprieties of the Nuremberg trials would have resulted in the cases being thrown out of court and the defendants freed. Even under the ex post facto law and extra-judicial, extra-legal terms under which the defendants were tried, at least two of the condemned deserved to be cleared.
    It is not clear why Admiral Donitz was sentenced to 10 years in prison. The chief American judge of the Tribunal, Francis Biddle, said: “It is, in my opinion, offensive to our concept of justice to punish a man for doing exactly what one has done himself.” “The Germans,” Biddle said, “fought a much cleaner war at sea than we did.“
    Jodl, who countermanded many Nazi orders, was sentenced to death. The injustice of the sentence was made clear by a German court in 1953 which cleared Jodl of all Nuremberg charges and rehabilitated him posthumously. The French justice at the Nuremberg Tribunal said at the time that Jodl’s conviction was without merit and was a miscarriage of justice.
    The entire Nuremberg proceeding stinks to high heaven. Defendants were charged with aggression for the German invasion of Norway. The fact was kept out of the trial that the British were about to invade Norway themselves and that the Germans, being more efficient, learned of it and managed to invade first.
    Defendants were accused of using slave labor, paradoxical in view of the Soviets own practice. Moreover, while the trials were in process the Soviets were apparently gathering up able-bodied Germans to serve as slave labor to rebuild their war-torn economy.
    Defendants were accused of mass executions despite the fact that the Russians, who were part of the prosecution and judgment of the defendants, had executed 15,000 or 20,000 Polish officers and buried them in a mass grave. Indeed, the Russians insisted on blaming the Germans on trial for the Katyn Forest Massacre.
    Defendants were accused of aggression against Poland, and Ribbentrop was not permitted to mention in his defense the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that divided Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union, without which Germany could not have attacked Poland. The fact that the Soviets, who were sitting at Nuremberg in judgment on the Germans, had themselves invaded Poland was kept out of the proceedings.
    Moreover, without the gratuitous British “guarantee” to Poland, the Polish military dictatorship would likely have agreed to return territories stripped from Germany by the Versailles Treaty and the invasion would have been avoided.
    The greatest hypocrisy was the charge of aggression against Germany when the fact of the matter is that World War 2 began when the British and French declared war on Germany. Germany conquered France and drove the British from the European Continent after the British and French started the war with a declaration of war against Germany.

    More at: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017...-at-nuremberg/
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  3. #2

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    From what i saw looked like routine military trials that could have been from anywhere .

  4. #3
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    Saddam's trial and execution was a farce. I think Osama bin Laden was assassinated, because he knew too much to be given trial. When I looked into the Nuremberg trials, I found the very definition of kangaroo court. I think it was at Nuremberg where the "Final Solution" became the holocaust. The lampshade myth put one of the commandant's wife to death. A delousing agent became a weapon of extermination...

    But this is the 21st Century, governments don't lie anymore, and we're all too smart to be lied to.

    By the way, where'd you find FDR's quotes on what to do with the German brass? He died before Berlin fell, didn't he?

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Saddam's trial and execution was a farce. I think Osama bin Laden was assassinated, because he knew too much to be given trial. When I looked into the Nuremberg trials, I found the very definition of kangaroo court. I think it was at Nuremberg where the "Final Solution" became the holocaust. The lampshade myth put one of the commandant's wife to death. A delousing agent became a weapon of extermination...

    But this is the 21st Century, governments don't lie anymore, and we're all too smart to be lied to.

    By the way, where'd you find FDR's quotes on what to do with the German brass? He died before Berlin fell, didn't he?
    I just found this article, you might find source citations if you follow the "More at:" link.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
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    I think David Irving's bibliography is my best bet. From the little I've read about how they worked, I'd say FDR and Hoover must have been made for each other.

  7. #6

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    Which germans would you have saved at Nuremberg ?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Which germans would you have saved at Nuremberg ?
    I don't have to like any NAZIs to object to villainy on the allied side, I am not well enough informed to know exactly what outcome which NAZI deserved, but Nuremburg was a Kangaroo court.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The problem, of course, was that at Nuremberg people were tried on the basis of ex post facto law—law that did not exist at the time of their actions for which they were convicted.
    I’m afraid it's much worse...

    The first problem with the Nuremberg show trials is that (like after any war); the losers were punished by the victors. Not one allied war criminal was punished for war crimes. Take for example the hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians that were murdered by bombing cities...

    Then the "Charter of the International Military Tribunal" shows that crimes did not need to be proved, as everybody knew they had been done; see art. 19 and 21: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp
    19.
    The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence.
    21.
    The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
    The Nazi “war criminals” were tried based on the “common knowledge” of war crimes by the Nazis, and on the testimonies and confessions that were the result of ruthless torture of these horrible Nazis: https://www.darkmoon.me/2015/torture...-at-nuremberg/
    German POWs reported that the torture techniques included deprivation of sleep, starvation, systematic beatings, ripping hair from the scalp, menacing with red-hot pokers, threatened use of electrical devices to deliver shocks, and, finally, the worst torture of all, the slow and systematic mangling of the spermatic cords of the testicles—a procedure that had their victims thrashing about and screaming like wild animals for hours.
    (…)
    Other methods used by the American interrogators included brutal beatings, placing a hood over prisoners and punching them in the face with brass knuckles, breaking their jaws, knocking out their teeth, putting them on starvation rations, and subjecting them to solitary confinement. The prisoners were then presented with prepared statements to sign.
    Later the torturing practices were investigated by Edward van Roden and Gordon Simpson: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/VanRoden1948.html
    AMERICAN investigators at the U. S. Court in Dachau, Germany, used the following methods to obtain confessions: Beatings and brutal kickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws. Mock trials. Solitary confinement. Posturing as priests. Very limited rations. Spiritual deprivation. Promises of acquittal.
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  10. #9

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    How many of these techniques are still legal and in use today?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter View Post
    I’m afraid it's much worse...

    The first problem with the Nuremberg show trials is that (like after any war); the losers were punished by the victors. Not one allied war criminal was punished for war crimes. Take for example the hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians that were murdered by bombing cities...

    Then the "Charter of the International Military Tribunal" shows that crimes did not need to be proved, as everybody knew they had been done; see art. 19 and 21: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp
    19.


    21.


    The Nazi “war criminals” were tried based on the “common knowledge” of war crimes by the Nazis, and on the testimonies and confessions that were the result of ruthless torture of these horrible Nazis: https://www.darkmoon.me/2015/torture...-at-nuremberg/


    Later the torturing practices were investigated by Edward van Roden and Gordon Simpson: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/VanRoden1948.html
    Yes, if you follow the "more at:" link the article covers some of that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #11

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    Looks like Borman / Death , Donitz / 10 yrs , Frank /Death , Frick / Death , Fritzsche / Acquitted , Funk / Life in prison , released in '57 , Goering / Death , Hess / Life in prison , Jodl / Death ( signed orders for summary execution of allied commandos ) , Kaltenbrunner / Death ( highest ranking SS to be tried there ) , Keitel / Death , Krupp / not tried , Ley / not tried , Neurath /15 yrs , released in '54 , Papen/ Acquitted , Raeder / Life in prison , released in '55 , Ribbentrop / Death , Rosenberg / Death ,Saukel / Death , Schacht/ Acquitted , Schirach /20 yrs , Inquart / Death , Speer / 20 yrs , Streicher / Death .

  13. #12

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    I really do not know that I see anything there that stands out to me as unusual.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I really do not know that I see anything there that stands out to me as unusual.
    The problem, of course, was that at Nuremberg people were tried on the basis of ex post facto law—law that did not exist at the time of their actions for which they were convicted.

    Moreover, the sentence—death by hanging—was decided prior to the trial and prior to the selection of defendants.

    Moreover, the defendants were chosen and then a case was made against them.

    Exculpatory evidence was withheld. Charges on which defendants were convicted turned out to be untrue.

    The trials were so loaded in favor of the prosecution that defense was pro forma.
    The defendants were abused and some were tortured.

    The defendants’ wives and children were arrested and imprisoned.

    The ex post facto law under which Germans were sentenced to death and to prison also criminalized the terror bombing of German and Japanese cities by the British and US air forces. Yet, the law was only applied to the Germans in the dock.


    It is not clear why Admiral Donitz was sentenced to 10 years in prison. The chief American judge of the Tribunal, Francis Biddle, said: “It is, in my opinion, offensive to our concept of justice to punish a man for doing exactly what one has done himself.” “The Germans,” Biddle said, “fought a much cleaner war at sea than we did.“

    Jodl, who countermanded many Nazi orders, was sentenced to death. The injustice of the sentence was made clear by a German court in 1953 which cleared Jodl of all Nuremberg charges and rehabilitated him posthumously. The French justice at the Nuremberg Tribunal said at the time that Jodl’s conviction was without merit and was a miscarriage of justice.

    None of that is "unusual" to you?
    Is it at least villainous to you?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    None of that is "unusual" to you?
    Is it at least villainous to you?
    I take it you are unfamiliar with military trials . Also , I listed why Jodl was killed .

  16. #15

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    Once you subtract the suicides , I think they hung ten . Most of those would have just been executed on the spot by most other Armies . My advice to everyone is never surrender.
    Last edited by oyarde; 08-14-2017 at 04:21 PM.

  17. #16

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    I am only surprised they did not do more .

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I take it you are unfamiliar with military trials .
    This was supposed to be a civilian affair, and injustice is injustice no matter how commonplace.



    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Also , I listed why Jodl was killed .
    The French justice at the Nuremberg Tribunal said at the time that Jodl’s conviction was without merit and was a miscarriage of justice.
    The injustice of the sentence was made clear by a German court in 1953 which cleared Jodl of all Nuremberg charges and rehabilitated him posthumously.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #18

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    Jodl was guilty of signing orders to execute Allied Commandos that should have been retained as prisoners of war . If you lose the war that will not go unpunished . Pretty sure the French Judge and I went to different schools .

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I am only surprised they did not do more .
    38 is a good number.
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  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    38 is a good number.
    Meh , that does not even cover the 100 Belgium civilians executed near Stavelot by the 1st SS Panzer Division . And those stupid bastards had to know by then they were going to lose . Then they surrender and 73 of them get locked up in Dachau by US troops and they all got tortured . Dumb $#@!s .

  22. #21

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    Personally I am opposed to torture and do not believe it to be effective . I do though wage war like a war criminal . I take no prisoners . Later though I will not be groveling around after I surrender or lose and call timeout . I would have given those Germans to the Russians and walked away . Only people as barbaric as the nazis were the russians so a fitting punishment and my peoples hands stay clean .

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Jodl was guilty of signing orders to execute Allied Commandos that should have been retained as prisoners of war . If you lose the war that will not go unpunished . Pretty sure the French Judge and I went to different schools .
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Meh , that does not even cover the 100 Belgium civilians executed near Stavelot by the 1st SS Panzer Division . And those stupid bastards had to know by then they were going to lose . Then they surrender and 73 of them get locked up in Dachau by US troops and they all got tortured . Dumb $#@!s .
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Personally I am opposed to torture and do not believe it to be effective . I do though wage war like a war criminal . I take no prisoners . Later though I will not be groveling around after I surrender or lose and call timeout . I would have given those Germans to the Russians and walked away . Only people as barbaric as the nazis were the russians so a fitting punishment and my peoples hands stay clean .
    I understand your point of view, I agree with most of it, the point of this post was to educate people about the evils committed by the allies not to defend NAZIs.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment






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