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Thread: Vegan cafe charges male customers 18 percent ‘man tax’

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    Personally, I believe that it is more masculine to protect the weak than to prey on the weak unnecessarily. Also soy isn't needed at all to go without meat, and there have been studies showing no link between soy and lower testosterone. In the end, eat however you want, but I think it's good to be aware that it can be healthy, easy, and tasty to go without meat, and that any nutrient in meat that humans need can be found easily in plants or milk so the purpose of eating meat is therefore mostly for taste preference rather than nutrition. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I think that it is good to be aware of these things as part of the decision of how someone chooses to eat, and to make a conscious decision about it. For example, I think it is better to hunt and be aware of the whole process than to pick up prepackaged meats at the grocery store while hating hunters.
    Good post, and I'm glad that I'm not completely alone here. I think a lot of this comes down to many years of deeply ingrained tradition, as well as believing false information, because this is such a meat-eating world. I hope that others would agree that it's good to occasionally question one's views and traditions, and always put truth first, no matter where it leads.

    I've noticed that a big problem here is that many people wrongly associate veganism with left-wing politics, and of course no conservative or libertarian wants to appear to be a bleeding heart liberal. But it's not a lefty thing, and I wish that people would get past lame, outdated stereotypes.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I've noticed that a big problem here is that many people wrongly associate veganism with left-wing politics, and of course no conservative or libertarian wants to appear to be a bleeding heart liberal. But it's not a lefty thing, and I wish that people would get past lame, outdated stereotypes.
    Veganism is clearly a left-wing thing. Of course, it doesn't have to be - there's no logical inconsistency in being a vegan and a liberal, nor in being a leftist and not being a vegan. But the fact is that most vegans are leftists (I'm speaking from experience only, as I'm aware of no polling data). Why is this the case? I suppose it's because, for many leftists, veganism is an extension of their victim-fetish: poor minorities, poor women, poor gays, poor poor, poor Bessie the cow (even "poor plants" in the case of "fruitarians" rofl). That said, it's often just a pose or a fad, not many true believers. Bono syndrome.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I've noticed that a big problem here is that many people wrongly associate veganism with left-wing politics
    There is a very good reason for that. Vegans, like left wingers, are obnoxious. People proudly claim moral superiority and tell everyone that they are vegans. Nobody cares if you are a vegan.

    I don't see anything inherently virtuous about eating a diet that makes someone look like an emaciated AIDS patient.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 08-06-2017 at 04:31 PM.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    There is a very good reason for that. Vegans, like left wingers, are obnoxious. People proudly claim moral superiority and tell everyone that they are vegans. Nobody cares if you are a vegan.
    Yup, I don't recall ever seeing a band of carnivores waiving signs or otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

    Vegans are in the same obnoxious category as teetotalers or anti-smoking nuts.

    ...not all of course, but as a generalization.



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  7. #65
    I don't claim that eating meat makes me more manly (I'm pretty dang manly already).

    I just like meat, it's been a part of my diet since I was a little man. Steaks and BBQ chicken. Please dont judge me Lily, you know I love u.

    I've never taken the initiative to open my mind to even consider whether i need to alter my diet.
    No - No - No - No
    2016

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    I don't claim that eating meat makes me more manly (I'm pretty dang manly already).

    I just like meat, it's been a part of my diet since I was a little man. Steaks and BBQ chicken. Please dont judge me Lily, you know I love u.

    I've never taken the initiative to open my mind to even consider whether i need to alter my diet.
    I totally understand. My post was only in response to those who were pushing the idea that veganism is only for women or sissy men, and that eating meat is somehow more manly.

    I'm not saying that meat eaters are bad people, but I think that many people aren't aware of the factors that cause people to go vegan. That is changing a lot now, with the internet, because they can't completely hide what is going on, and truth has a way of coming out eventually. I love you guys too, and I honestly don't like division, so I hope that both 'sides' of this debate can discuss it in a civil matter. I admit that I don't always succeed at that, but that goes both ways.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Yup, I don't recall ever seeing a band of carnivores waiving signs or otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

    Vegans are in the same obnoxious category as teetotalers or anti-smoking nuts.

    ...not all of course, but as a generalization.
    Much truth here!

    Lots of people like bland food, ya' don't hear them complaining about chiliheads..

    I hear there're even people who put pineapple on pizza!

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Much truth here!

    Lots of people like bland food, ya' don't hear them complaining about chiliheads..

    I hear there're even people who put pineapple on pizza!
    Outrageous!

    We should stage a rally.

  11. #69
    The comical thing about some of the comments in this thread is the collectivist mindset to view people as members of groups rather than as Individuals.

    Being a vegan doesn't automatically make one a liberal just because a collectivist says so.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 08-06-2017 at 07:52 PM.

  12. #70
    Real men eat whatever the $#@! they want to and don't give a crap what anyone thinks of their diet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Real men eat whatever the $#@! they want to and don't give a crap what anyone thinks of their diet.

    mr. Animal, log off of your wife's account and hide her toys before the kids wake up.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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  14. #72
    I guess we all have different ideas on what qualities are masculine and admirable.

    I think caring about more than just oneself > selfishness.

    Protecting the weak and vulnerable > exploiting the vulnerable.

    Speaking out when necessary (even if it's unpopular) takes more courage than going with the flow to avoid being mocked or criticized.

    Compassion is sexy.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I guess we all have different ideas on what qualities are masculine and admirable.

    I think caring about more than just oneself > selfishness.

    Protecting the weak and vulnerable > exploiting the vulnerable.

    Speaking out when necessary (even if it's unpopular) takes more courage than going with the flow to avoid being mocked or criticized.

    Compassion is sexy.
    Since when does being strong enough to care about and protect humans around you, instead of an animal 1000 miles away, mean selfishness? That is the opposite of selfishness. If you ask me, I am protecting the weak and vulnerable in my life. It's all too easy to exploit the weak and vulnerable in this world without even involving actual farm animals.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Since when does being strong enough to care about and protect humans around you, instead of an animal 1000 miles away, mean selfishness? That is the opposite of selfishness.
    I didn't say that. I specifically stated someone who only cares about themself.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I've noticed that a big problem here is that many people wrongly associate veganism with left-wing politics, and of course no conservative or libertarian wants to appear to be a bleeding heart liberal. But it's not a lefty thing, and I wish that people would get past lame, outdated stereotypes.
    I personally don't advocate veganism, though I do recognize that it is practical in most places in the world. I don't think it's wrong to have honey, milk, or wear wool because they can be obtained with minimal or no harm to the animal and don't require killing. I also think that for most people, lacto-vegetarianism is easier and more practical, because dairy is healthy and would contain anything someone might be worried about missing from animal products, though those nutrients can also be found in plant sources.

    One of the reasons I find libertarian and similar philosophies interesting is the non-aggression principle. To me, the NAP is basically the moral value of ahimsa, or non-violence to all species in word and deed, so I feel that it meshes nicely with my faith. To me, the libertarian non-aggression principle (ahimsa) is the reason not to cause harm to other humans and animals except in self defense. It is basically extending the golden rule to all of God's sentient creation. In this sense, lacto-vegetarianism can be seen as either neutral, libertarian, or conservative.

    There are aspects about the vegan movement that I don't agree with that make it seem like more of a political movement or a boycott based on agreeing with a particular set of beliefs, and some of those aspects could be seen as left-wing by association of those who tend to take to the beliefs I suppose. For example, I don't think there is something wrong with taking milk from another species "because it wasn't meant for us", and I don't think it's wrong to use animals for labor if they're treated well, and I don't make terrible comparisons to "rape" to refer to animal husbandry. These are some of the aspects of veganism that I feel are more of a personal opinion than a universal ethic or religious moral, and part of why I feel lacto-vegetarianism is more practical in general for most people. I have encountered vegans that are so radical that they even hate vegetarians, but I know they're not all like that, and I think they are doing something positive by abstaining from flesh.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    I personally don't advocate veganism, though I do recognize that it is practical in most places in the world. I don't think it's wrong to have honey, milk, or wear wool because they can be obtained with minimal or no harm to the animal and don't require killing. I also think that for most people, lacto-vegetarianism is easier and more practical, because dairy is healthy and would contain anything someone might be worried about missing from animal products, though those nutrients can also be found in plant sources.

    One of the reasons I find libertarian and similar philosophies interesting is the non-aggression principle. To me, the NAP is basically the moral value of ahimsa, or non-violence to all species in word and deed, so I feel that it meshes nicely with my faith. To me, the libertarian non-aggression principle (ahimsa) is the reason not to cause harm to other humans and animals except in self defense. It is basically extending the golden rule to all of God's sentient creation. In this sense, lacto-vegetarianism can be seen as either neutral, libertarian, or conservative.

    There are aspects about the vegan movement that I don't agree with that make it seem like more of a political movement or a boycott based on agreeing with a particular set of beliefs, and some of those aspects could be seen as left-wing by association of those who tend to take to the beliefs I suppose. For example, I don't think there is something wrong with taking milk from another species "because it wasn't meant for us", and I don't think it's wrong to use animals for labor if they're treated well, and I don't make terrible comparisons to "rape" to refer to animal husbandry. These are some of the aspects of veganism that I feel are more of a personal opinion than a universal ethic or religious moral, and part of why I feel lacto-vegetarianism is more practical in general for most people. I have encountered vegans that are so radical that they even hate vegetarians, but I know they're not all like that, and I think they are doing something positive by abstaining from flesh.
    Well, I actually don't think of myself as a vegan either and I don't always call myself one. (Even though I eat a vegan diet and I avoid leather, fur, etc.) I don't agree with vegans on a few things, because many of the hard-core vegans have ideas that are unbiblical. The only problem is, there's not really a word for vegan from a Christian perspective.

    I definitely agree with you on the nonaggression principle, but respectfully, I disagree with you on dairy. I think many people are unaware that there is actually a lot of harm involved with dairy, starting with the calf being torn away from his mother, usually at day one of his life. Then the male calves are either discarded like garbage or raised for veal and killed at a young age, without giving them a chance to move around because their muscles need to be soft. The female calves are raised to be milk machines, forcibly impregnated over and over and completely exploited until they're too tired to go on, and at that point they're usually killed for cheap hamburger meat.

    Here is a quote that I think is powerful and eloquent:

    "I became a vegan the day I watched a video of a calf being born on a factory farm. The baby was dragged away from his mother before he hit the ground. The helpless calf strained its head backwards to find his mother. The mother bolted after her son and exploded into a rage when the rancher slammed the gate on her. She wailed the saddest noise I’d ever heard an animal make, and then thrashed and ...dug into the ground, burying her face in the muddy placenta.

    I had no idea what was happening respecting brain chemistry, animal instinct, or whatever. I just knew that this was deeply wrong. I just knew that such suffering could never be worth the taste of milk and veal. I empathized with the cow and the calf and, in so doing, my life changed."

    - James McWilliams


    And here are some videos…



    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  20. #77
    Yieu, those videos were actually very tame compared to many others out there that expose the cruelty in the dairy industry.

    If you want to see a video that has caused tons of people to ditch dairy, watch this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI&t=59s (It's blunt but very concise and to the point.)

    Also, we have been lied to by the dairy industry that pays for studies promoting the idea that we need dairy and that it is healthy. Numerous studies have shown that it is not healthy, and it really is unnecessary, when there are so many better alternatives out there, like almond milk, coconut milk, hemp milk, rice milk, etc.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Real men eat whatever the $#@! they want to and don't give a crap what anyone thinks of their diet.
    Including men who have diabetes and heart disease?

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Being a vegan doesn't automatically make one a liberal just because a collectivist says so.
    You are right, just somebody saying so, does not make it so.

    No, what makes vegans almost universally "liberals" or more properly "authoritarian statists" is that, given the chance, the vast, vast majority of vegans would cheerfully, wholeheartedly and without equivocation support the idea of government mandates banning the use or consumption of any animal product for any use at any time.

    They would equally favor harsh and draconian punishments for non compliance.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You are right, just somebody saying so, does not make it so.

    No, what makes vegans almost universally "liberals" or more properly "authoritarian statists" is that, given the chance, the vast, vast majority of vegans would cheerfully, wholeheartedly and without equivocation support the idea of government mandates banning the use or consumption of any animal product for any use at any time.

    They would equally favor harsh and draconian punishments for non compliance.
    Yes, I know. I agree that the vast majority of them would.

    I was just putting it out there that not all of them are like that. That's all I was saying.

    I'm a big fan of leave me the heck alone. People are free to make rules for themselves so long as I'm not forced to equally do the same. It's a good rule to live by.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 08-07-2017 at 08:56 PM.



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  25. #81
    Well, I hope that I am one of the ones that are different. You see, I am a vegan. But not because I love animals. No no no, its because I $#@!ing HATE goddamn plants! *Chomp Chomp Chomp* Take that you stoopid green leafy healthy $#@!ing thing that everyone shoves down my throat!

    Actually, I dont really eat a lot of meat, but I think it is because of my blood type. Heard that a few places. Steak and hamburger usually sits in my stomach and always weighs me down. I just dont like the way my gut feels when its meat overloaded. I could really give a $#@! about what anyone else eats as long as it isnt being forced or manipulated down someone elses throats. Stuff like pink slime Chicken McNuggets or artificially flavored everything and always being told "its perfectly save for human consumption" makes me look at those types as profiteering sociopathic liars.
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  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You are right, just somebody saying so, does not make it so.

    No, what makes vegans almost universally "liberals" or more properly "authoritarian statists" is that, given the chance, the vast, vast majority of vegans would cheerfully, wholeheartedly and without equivocation support the idea of government mandates banning the use or consumption of any animal product for any use at any time.

    They would equally favor harsh and draconian punishments for non compliance.
    I follow a vegan diet and don't support either or those things.

    You can't force a vegan diet on anyone. It has to become one's own conviction. I was a monk for about 15 years and the group followed a vegetarian diet. Being used to the diet, I continued when I left, then switched to vegan about 2 years ago.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by pao View Post
    I was a monk for about 15 years...
    Really. That's interesting, pao. You should tell us about that some time.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by pao View Post
    I follow a vegan diet and don't support either or those things.

    You can't force a vegan diet on anyone. It has to become one's own conviction. I was a monk for about 15 years and the group followed a vegetarian diet. Being used to the diet, I continued when I left, then switched to vegan about 2 years ago.
    Just by virtue of you being here, indicates that you are in the tiny minority on this.

    Let me follow up, I can recall no instance, anywhere, anytime, of an omnivore calling for laws forcing people to eat animals products.

    India is where we're heading.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 08-07-2017 at 09:15 PM.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Really. That's interesting, pao. You should tell us about that some time.
    Sorry, I meant 11 years (1998-2009). There was a long application process and, in my mind, often include that time when speaking of my time there. It's easiest to talk about when answering questions.... Anyway, I got interested in Ron Paul during 2008 presidential election... probably more interested than I should have been, lol.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post

    Let me follow up, I can recall no instance, anywhere, anytime, of an omnivore calling for laws forcing people to eat animals products.

    There was actually some industry penned legislation that specifically said that people had no right to know what was in their food. And it went further to say that the States didn't have the right to protect it's citizens right to know. I posted it around here some place.

    That kind of thing fundamentally takes away one's freedom of choice. Which is fundamental to Individual Liberty.

    That was actually a 'conservative' bit of tomscrewery.

    That wasn't about meat, or vegetables particularly. It was everything.

    I think they're still trying to get it into law.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 08-07-2017 at 09:20 PM.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by pao View Post
    Sorry, I meant 11 years (1998-2009). There was a long application process and, in my mind, often include that time when speaking of my time there. It's easiest to talk about when answering questions.... Anyway, I got interested in Ron Paul during 2008 presidential election... probably more interested than I should have been, lol.
    Yeah, me, too. I have a sock around here some place. Hehehehe. I always go to Ron when I'm looking for an answer to something. He rarely fails me.

    Not to bring her back into it but lily promotes veganism from a biblical perspective.

    I've never heard an actual practicing Monk discuss his reasoning for a plant based lifestyle, though. I'd be interested in making the comparison with the case that some Christians make in its support. If for no other reason than purely educational material.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 08-07-2017 at 10:04 PM.

  32. #88
    .....
    Last edited by lilymc; 08-07-2017 at 10:03 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  34. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    I don't disagree from a libertarian point of view. But I think they were violating federal law. Which I worked as my angle to get into the club.
    What's the point of a club that doesn't straight up discriminate based on looks period?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Including men who have diabetes and heart disease?
    McMacs and Whoppers have a lot to do with that.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 08-07-2017 at 10:08 PM.

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