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Thread: Immigration and the fall of Rome

  1. #1

    Immigration and the fall of Rome



    The video is a very fascinating look at the fall of Rome and what part immigration played in that downfall. This is a perspective of the fall of Rome you rarely hear from the experts both revisionist and mainstream historians. This is one video any ancient Rome fanatic would enjoy.

    Just a word of warning, please skip the 1st 3 minutes of the video cos for some strange reason, it annoys the hell out of me.

    Enjoy
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.



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  3. #2
    Did Immigration Cause the Fall of the Roman Empire?
    No

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...newal-Possible

    To elaborate:

    The basic story goes something like this.

    1. In a pre-telecommunication era, it was just too easy for rebel generals on the frontier to revolt against emperors in Rome (or vice versa)
    2. Hence the emperors were chronically insecure in their position.
    3. Hence they had to pay huge sums to the army and the Roman mob to remain in power.
    4. Hence they needed huge revenues.
    5. Hence they imposed crushing taxes, debased the currency, imposed price controls, destroyed the money economy, and implemented feudalism.
    6. Hence the tax base shrank such that it was no longer adequate to pay the army.
    7. Hence the army became weak, unable either to maintain order within the empire or defend the frontiers.
    8. Hence the barbarians just walked right in and deposed Romulus Augustulus without much ado, even to much applause.

    Classical Roman, Greek, Near Eastern, Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic religions were quite compatible, all being polytheistic, and in many cases historically related. It was only with the arrival of Christianity that religion became an issue of serious political concern (excepting earlier issues with the Jews). There was certainly no balkanation resulting from religious diversity prior to Christianity, and what there was after Christianity came much later in the game, and was mostly a problem for the Byzantines after the Western Empire had already fallen. How about race? it was never much of a concern to anyone. Emperors came from all over the empire: Italians, Spaniards, Africans, Greeks. I'm aware of no example of a civil war or other civil disorder based on race. How about language? Language barriers can always generate friction, but, in the Western Empire, everybody had pretty much adopted Latin (if in a vulgar form) before the empire started experiencing serious problems. In general, the sorts of identity politics we "enjoy" today were basically alien to classical civilization. These sorts of things cannot explain the decline and fall.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  4. #3
    Obviously it was a confluence of things, and not just one thing, but Molyneux makes the same argument that immigration was integral in the collapse of Rome:


    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    @juleswin @dannno Would you give a summary of the theses of these videos? I'm prejudiced against videos and in favor of text.

    @Swordsmyth @PierzStyx Thoughts?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    @juleswin @dannno Would you give a summary of the theses of these videos? I'm prejudiced against videos and in favor of text.

    @Swordsmyth @PierzStyx Thoughts?
    The video I posted has slides with loads of text.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The video I posted has slides with loads of text.
    It's two and a half hours long...

    ...and, without turning this into an anti-Molyneux tirade, I strongly suspect that the argument (sans fluff) could be distilled into a few paragraphs.

    I've not watched the video, so I can't summarize it; you have, and can. Would you?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    @juleswin @dannno Would you give a summary of the theses of these videos? I'm prejudiced against videos and in favor of text.

    @Swordsmyth @PierzStyx Thoughts?
    We have had this conversation elsewhere.
    The first video does not relate to my arguments, I did not watch the second for the same reasons as you, though I may later if I have time since it is on my side.
    In any case the US is not Rome and the illegal aliens are not Goths etc.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    @juleswin @dannno Would you give a summary of the theses of these videos? I'm prejudiced against videos and in favor of text.

    @Swordsmyth @PierzStyx Thoughts?
    I really don't know how to break it down, it is really a straight forward video that examined the fall of Rome, it's a history lesson of sorts that highlights the mistakes by some Roman emperors and generals in handling immigration.

    Essentially, it the part II of the video the same vlogger made to debunk the Stefan Molyneux's theory that the welfare state (mainly the grain dole which started a few decades before the start of the roman empire) led to its fall.

    Its 24 mins long if you skip the 1st 4 and last 2 minutes fluff part of the video. Its immigration, failure of Roman officials to fully absorb new immigrants, corruption, betrayal, rebellion, Rome is sacked, emperor dead and end of the western Roman empire. Now you have to watch it to see how all these came together.

    You will thank me later
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.



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  11. #9

    exegesis

    @juleswin

    Alright, let's listen:

    The video begins with the claim that large numbers of Russians and British immigrated to Germany in the early 40s, which was the cause of the destruction of the civilization of the Third Reich. Ah, wait, what..?! Yes, that's obvious nonsense, as the author notes. He had been defining "immigration" so as to include military conquest, such that the Russian "immigrants" were the Red Army invading Germany: the British "immigrants" the British Army invading Normandy. He gives this intentionally misleading characterization to make a point, i.e. that one must be wary of charlatans abusing language to make their argument: a very sound point.

    This fellow has the hang of the reign, I like this fellow exceedingly..

    To be continued as I listen to the rest..
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  12. #10
    So, continued:

    The author notes the defeats of the Roman state during the 2nd Punic War at the hands of Hannibal, and of Quinctilius Varus in the battle of the Teutoberg forest in the reign of Augustus. He then makes the point, quite correctly, that the Romans were capable of suffering horrific defeats and rebounding and - indeed - launching out on further, successful military conquests.

    He then quotes Tacitus, who goes on about how Gauls ought not to be Senators (note, a position of purely symbolic importance by this time, the emperors having entirely annihilated the real power of the Senate, and any other formal offices of the republic: quaestor, tribunes, etc.). He concludes that the virtue of the Late Republic/Early Principate was the ability of the Roman state to accommodate and assimilate non-Roman (even non-Italic) peoples into the Roman polity - which is unsubstantiated and unconvincing. The virtue of the Roman state was its ability to rule such people. In fact. they enjoyed the Roman peace whether they liked it or not.

    His explanation of the behavior of Odoacer and the coup d'etat against the last emperor in the West is misplaced. He finds it inexplicable that Romulus Augustulus wouldn't have paid the barbarian army, given that it had just recently deposed another emperor for lack of pay. Well, sir, here's the reason the emperor didn't pay: he had no money!. Why is that? For the reasons I explained above.

    Next is the Gothic War and the catastrophe of Adrianopolos. The emperor Valens allows the Goths (fleeing from the Huns) into the empire. Essentially, (I say, not the author of the video) this was an extension of the feudalization of the entire empire; i.e. Valens have the Goths land in exchange for the promise of future military service. Now, things went rapidly south; there were variously misunderstandings, mostly the fault of corrupt Roman officials who stole food and other property which the emperor Valens had ordered be delivered to his new vassal Goths. Eventually, the Goths revolted, Valens returned and raised an army, they fought a desperate battle in the area of Adrianopolos, the Roman army was defeated, Valens was killed, and the entire area south of the Danube was opened to Gothic marauders.

    The author appears to find in this some kind of lesson; I'm not sure what. It's simply corruption and incompetence, of the usual sort. The lesson here, if there is one, is that emperors who overspend, overtax, devalue the coinage, implement price controls, destroy the money economy, implement feudalism and thus wreck their own armies...don't have armies. And emperors without armies are emperors of air. Altogether, the author's argument is both clever and sound, at least with respect to what didn't cause the decline and fall of the empire: i.e. immigration.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, continued:

    The author notes the defeats of the Roman state during the 2nd Punic War at the hands of Hannibal, and of Quinctilius Varus in the battle of the Teutoberg forest in the reign of Augustus. He then makes the point, quite correctly, that the Romans were capable of suffering horrific defeats and rebounding and - indeed - launching out on further, successful military conquests.

    He then quotes Tacitus, who goes on about how Gauls ought not to be Senators (note, a position of purely symbolic importance by this time, the emperors having entirely annihilated the real power of the Senate, and any other formal offices of the republic: quaestor, tribunes, etc.). He concludes that the virtue of the Late Republic/Early Principate was the ability of the Roman state to accommodate and assimilate non-Roman (even non-Italic) peoples into the Roman polity - which is unsubstantiated and unconvincing. The virtue of the Roman state was its ability to rule such people. In fact. they enjoyed the Roman peace whether they liked it or not.

    His explanation of the behavior of Odoacer and the coup d'etat against the last emperor in the West is misplaced. He finds it inexplicable that Romulus Augustulus wouldn't have paid the barbarian army, given that it had just recently deposed another emperor for lack of pay. Well, sir, here's the reason the emperor didn't pay: he had no money!. Why is that? For the reasons I explained above.

    Next is the Gothic War and the catastrophe of Adrianopolos. The emperor Valens allows the Goths (fleeing from the Huns) into the empire. Essentially, (I say, not the author of the video) this was an extension of the feudalization of the entire empire; i.e. Valens have the Goths land in exchange for the promise of future military service. Now, things went rapidly south; there were variously misunderstandings, mostly the fault of corrupt Roman officials who stole food and other property which the emperor Valens had ordered be delivered to his new vassal Goths. Eventually, the Goths revolted, Valens returned and raised an army, they fought a desperate battle in the area of Adrianopolos, the Roman army was defeated, Valens was killed, and the entire area south of the Danube was opened to Gothic marauders.

    The author appears to find in this some kind of lesson; I'm not sure what. It's simply corruption and incompetence, of the usual sort. The lesson here, if there is one, is that emperors who overspend, overtax, devalue the coinage, implement price controls, destroy the money economy, implement feudalism and thus wreck their own armies...don't have armies. And emperors without armies are emperors of air. Altogether, the author's argument is both clever and sound, at least with respect to what didn't cause the decline and fall of the empire: i.e. immigration.
    Thanks for the review. I would have preferred that you didn't reveal the twist to the story, this way more people would give it a chance. Oh well, watch it even if you are staunchly anti immigration, the conclusion from it still technically showed how immigration led to the collapse of the Roman empire. But to your objections, i thought Odoacer had promised the mercenary army land instead of money. He is a newly minted emperor, the mercenary army couldn't have expected him to pay in gold, but land as payment? that sounds more reasonable. But it seems like he reneged on the land for military support deal and paid dearly for it.

    I think he would do himself a huge favor by citing his sources, most of the time I am googling the information he posts to confirm that his information. And even though wikipedia is pretty accurate most of the time, it is very underwhelming know that your information is from the site.

    Thanks again for the review, I generally watch his videos with a fanboi glasses and tend to miss areas where his argument seem to be weak.
    Last edited by juleswin; 08-04-2017 at 09:16 PM.
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    i thought Odoacer had promised the mercenary army land instead of money. He is a newly minted emperor, the mercenary army couldn't have expected him to pay in gold, but land as payment? that sounds more reasonable. But it seems like he reneged on the land for military support deal and paid dearly for it.
    We might be talking about different things. I was talking about Odoacer's coup against Romulus Augustulus, with the latter failing to pay the former (not about what Odoacer did after he gained power). But anyway, I could have forgotten my history, perhaps it was land which the last emperor promised to the barbarian king. In any event, by that point, he wouldn't have even been in a position to offer even land, let alone money. To offer land implies the ability to deny it; yet, if you have no army, how would that be done? t wouldn't. The fellow with the army would simply take it, as, in any event, he ultimately did.

    I think he would do himself a huge favor by citing his sources, most of the time I am googling the information he posts to confirm that his information. And even though wikipedia is pretty accurate most of the time, it is very underwhelming know that your information is from the site.
    That would be nice, yea.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It's two and a half hours long...

    ...and, without turning this into an anti-Molyneux tirade, I strongly suspect that the argument (sans fluff) could be distilled into a few paragraphs.

    I've not watched the video, so I can't summarize it; you have, and can. Would you?
    OK I watched the second video, here is my take:
    Rome addicted itself to plunder and cheap labor (slaves), by the time it ran out of easy conquests to supply more it had built a government (particularly the army, but also the welfare state{to support those whom the cheap labor had displaced from the labor market}) that it could not afford under normal economics, this combined with the absorption of anti-free market culture from conquered peoples led to an economic death spiral as they debased their currency and taxed/regulated what was left of their economy to death.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    OK I watched the second video, here is my take:
    Rome addicted itself to plunder and cheap labor (slaves), by the time it ran out of easy conquests to supply more it had built a government (particularly the army, but also the welfare state{to support those whom the cheap labor had displaced from the labor market}) that it could not afford under normal economics, this combined with the absorption of anti-free market culture from conquered peoples led to an economic death spiral as they debased their currency and taxed/regulated what was left of their economy to death.
    With the exception of the underlined, which is Molyneux arguing by assertion to talk his book, that's more or less correct.

    Course, it has nothing to do with immigration.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    With the exception of the underlined, which is Molyneux arguing by assertion to talk his book, that's more or less correct.

    Course, it has nothing to do with immigration.
    Immigration = cheap labor
    the welfare state{to support those whom the cheap labor had displaced from the labor market}
    And our immigrants do bring an anti-free market culture with them, whether you think Rome picked it up from foreigners or not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Immigration = cheap labor
    You/Molyneux referred to slaves, not immigrants.

    Apart from the impossibility of explaining the Roman state's decline by immigration, there simply was no immigration of any consequence. The Roman Empire contained virtually the entire population of W. Eurasia. There was hardly anybody in Germania, relatively speaking. The entire concept is preposterous. Germans were not coming across the Rhine to pick olives in Gaul and causing unemployment.

    And our immigrants do bring an anti-free market culture with them, whether you think Rome picked it up from foreigners or not.
    The claim that Rome's neighbors somehow infected Rome with anti-market ideology is more than wrong; it displays a horrifying lack of understanding of any history prior to the last two centuries. The very concept that the Goths or Franks et al even had an ideology with respect to the market is profoundly anachronistic. People like Molyneux who are promoting this are pure propagandists, with not a shred of scholarship on their side.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You/Molyneux referred to slaves, not immigrants.
    I said "cheap labor (slaves)", the source/style of cheap labor from outside makes less difference than it's use.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Apart from the impossibility of explaining the Roman state's decline by immigration, there simply was no immigration of any consequence. The Roman Empire contained virtually the entire population of W. Eurasia. There was hardly anybody in Germania, relatively speaking. The entire concept is preposterous. Germans were not coming across the Rhine to pick olives in Gaul and causing unemployment.
    The Romans brought in slaves from beyond europe.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The claim that Rome's neighbors somehow infected Rome with anti-market ideology is more than wrong; it displays a horrifying lack of understanding of any history prior to the last two centuries. The very concept that the Goths or Franks et al even had an ideology with respect to the market is profoundly anachronistic. People like Molyneux who are promoting this are pure propagandists, with not a shred of scholarship on their side.
    He claimed that they were poisoned philosophically from the east particularly Egypt.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I said "cheap labor (slaves)", the source/style of cheap labor from outside makes less difference than it's use.

    ...

    The Romans brought in slaves from beyond europe.
    First, none of it has any bearing on the fall of the empire anyway, for reasons explained.

    Second, almost all slaves in the Roman Empire were natives thereof.

    Third, regardless, if you're defining the conquest and enslavement of peoples as "immigration," your point is lost anyway.

    ...as it then has no bearing whatsoever on immigration as it's presently occurring in the West.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    First, none of it has any bearing on the fall of the empire anyway, for reasons explained.

    Second, almost all slaves in the Roman Empire were natives thereof.

    Third, regardless, if you're defining the conquest and enslavement of peoples as "immigration," your point is lost anyway.

    ...as it then has no bearing whatsoever on immigration as it's presently occurring in the West.
    We have had this conversation before so I will just stop now.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We have had this conversation before so I will just stop now.
    One more thing, if you'll indulge me...

    Do you define the Roman conquest and enslavement of people as "immigration" (i.e. of those people conquered and enslaved)?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    One more thing, if you'll indulge me...

    Do you define the Roman conquest and enslavement of people as "immigration" (i.e. of those people conquered and enslaved)?
    It had some of the same effects but it is obviously not the same, in our earlier conversation I said that it resulted in the same kind of cultural change as massive immigration.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It had some of the same effects but it is obviously not the same, in our earlier conversation I said that it resulted in the same kind of cultural change as massive immigration.
    As I said in that same exchange, this is not supported by anything in the historical record, nor does it make much sense prima facie. The Roman lifestyle became more luxurious over time? Yes, this being the universal response to getting rich - no foreign influence required. Moreover, it's hard to imagine how enslaved peasants could have transferred their luxurious lifestyles (?) to the Roman elite. And regardless of what - if any - influence foreigners may have had on the Roman elite's style of living, that has precious little to do with the activities of the Roman state, whose expenditures were almost entirely devoted to the military, with very little going to maintain the lifestyle of the emperors. There's no reason to suppose that, had all the Roman elites been rigorous Franciscans, going about in hair-shirts starving themselves, the state's behavior would been significantly different (and I think we agreed that it was the state's behavior which proximately caused the decline).
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As I said in that same exchange, this is not supported by anything in the historical record, nor does it make much sense prima facie. The Roman lifestyle became more luxurious over time? Yes, this being the universal response to getting rich - no foreign influence required. Moreover, it's hard to imagine how enslaved peasants could have transferred their luxurious lifestyles (?) to the Roman elite. And regardless of what - if any - influence foreigners may have had on the Roman elite's style of living, that has precious little to do with the activities of the Roman state, whose expenditures were almost entirely devoted to the military, with very little going to maintain the lifestyle of the emperors. There's no reason to suppose that, had all the Roman elites been rigorous Franciscans, going about in hair-shirts starving themselves, the state's behavior would been significantly different (and I think we agreed that it was the state's behavior which proximately caused the decline).
    Well Greek influence certainly was not the ONLY cause of the decline and fall of the empire and the Roman experience was definitely different than ours, so I think that the extent of cultural corruption in Roman history is academic at this point.
    Since I don't want to run around in the same circles again I think we should just leave it at that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Well Greek influence certainly was not the ONLY cause of the decline and fall of the empire and the Roman experience was definitely different than ours, so I think that the extent of cultural corruption in Roman history is academic at this point.
    Since I don't want to run around in the same circles again I think we should just leave it at that.
    I'll just add that the Greek influence long preceded Rome's conquest of Greece. Rome was within the Greek cultural sphere from its foundation. If there were merit to this theory of corrupting foreign influence, it would seem to justify a kind of Chinese cultural isolationism, more than anything to do with conquest/immigration.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'll just add that the Greek influence long preceded Rome's conquest of Greece. Rome was within the Greek cultural sphere from its foundation. If there were merit to this theory of corrupting foreign influence, it would seem to justify a kind of Chinese cultural isolationism, more than anything to do with conquest/immigration.
    I don't believe that all cultural exchange is inherently evil but when you absorb too many foreigners too fast it has bad effects.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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