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Thread: Article 1 Section 9

  1. #61
    "Born in other countries, yet believing you could be happy in this, our laws acknowledge, as they should do, your right to join us in society, conforming, as I doubt not you will do, to our established rules. That these rules shall be as equal as prudential considerations will admit, will certainly be the aim of our legislatures, general and particular."

    --Thomas Jefferson to Hugh White, 1801. ME 10:258
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #62
    bump
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If I walk across a line on a map to seek a job or to try to sell you something or to buy something from you, am I invading? Or do I need to have a gun?
    When 20 million foreigners walk across that line and stay here, and breed like rats at the expense of American taxpaying Citizens, every thinking person would say that is an invasion which our federal government is charged with protecting us against.



    JWK


    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    When 20 million foreigners walk across that line and stay here, and breed like rats at the expense of American taxpaying Citizens, every thinking person would say that is an invasion which our federal government is charged with protecting us against.



    JWK
    So let's get 20 million more police and military (More government! Yay!!!) and search every house and every business and check the papers of every citizen and non- citizen until we find every last one of them! Then Liberty will be restored (or lost)! What did you say your address was? PS- we will need to increase your taxes to pay for it all.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So let's get 20 million more police and military (More government! Yay!!!) and search every house and every business and check the papers of every citizen and non- citizen until we find every last one of them! Then Liberty will be restored (or lost)! What did you say your address was? PS- we will need to increase your taxes to pay for it all.
    Or we can have a proportional response.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Here's an article that argues that the federal government's power over immigration is based on the Law of Nations Clause in Article I, Section 8, Clause 10:

    https://i2i.org/where-congresss-powe...on-comes-from/

    https://www.constitution.org/cmt/law_of_nations.htm

    The meaning of "Offenses against the Law of Nations"

    Art. I Sec. 8 Cl. 10 of the Constitution for the United States delegates the power to Congress to "define and punish ... Offenses against the Law of Nations". It is important to understand what is and is not included in the term of art "law of nations", and not confuse it with "international law". They are not the same thing. The phrase "law of nations" is a direct translation of the Latin jus gentium, which means the underlying principles of right and justice among nations, and during the founding era was not considered the same as the "laws", that is, the body of treaties and conventions between nations, the jus inter gentes, which, combined with jus gentium, comprise the field of "international law". The distinction goes back to ancient Roman Law.

    Briefly, the Law of Nations at the point of ratification in 1788 included the following general elements, taken from Blackstone's Commentaries, and prosecution of those who might violate them:

    (1) No attacks on foreign nations, their citizens, or shipping, without either a declaration of war or letters of marque and reprisal.

    (2) Honoring of the flag of truce, peace treaties, and boundary treaties. No entry across national borders without permission of national authorities.

    (3) Protection of wrecked ships, their passengers and crew, and their cargo, from depredation by those who might find them.

    (4) Prosecution of piracy by whomever might be able to capture the pirates, even if those making the capture or their nations had not been victims.

    (5) Care and decent treatment of prisoners of war.

    (6) Protection of foreign embassies, ambassadors, and diplomats, and of foreign ships and their passengers, crew, and cargo while in domestic waters or in port.

    (7) Honoring of extradition treaties for criminals who committed crimes in a nation with whom one has such a treaty who escape to one's territory or are found on the high seas established with all nations in 1788,

    (8) Prohibition of enslavement of foreign nationals and international trading in slaves.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Or we can have a proportional response.
    Are you suggesting even more police state? Or is the problem not that bad?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Are you suggesting even more police state? Or is the problem not that bad?
    What do you think?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What do you think?
    More government! Yay!
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    More government! Yay!
    Of course YOU think that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Of course YOU think that.
    I did not think you would say it was the other option- that the problem wasn't that bad. Since you want more security at the border you favor more government spending.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-17-2018 at 11:39 AM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I did not think you would say it was the other option- that the problem wasn't that bad.
    It isn't bad enough to nuke Mexico either but that doesn't mean it isn't very bad.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Seems to me, somebody has been blurring the line between immigration and illegal immigration.

    So often, folks like to omit the illegal part of the later and call it all immigration.

    One is like inviting someone to live with us and the other is just letting someone who broke in to live with us.
    BINGO.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    BINGO.
    Most of those presently here illegally came legally. Should we search every business and household to try to find them and kick them out? Maybe we could get some sort of national biometric ID card to root out the ones using fake IDs. Papers please!
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Most of those presently here illegally came legally. Should we search every business and household to try to find them and kick them out? Maybe we could get some sort of national biometric ID card to root out the ones using fake IDs. Papers please!
    Your point, atop your histrionic head notwithstanding, is taken.

    Were the world different, I'd be on board. It's not. Welfare states attract vermin. Powerful, wealthy lands in conflict with other nations, rightly or otherwise, are vulnerable through borders. If one is serious about defense against malefactors coming across those borders, then he must control them. These are just two of the $#@!ty realities of a world infested with insane people. Half the world would like to eat us. Maybe we deserve that sentiment, maybe not. We either defend against those who would damage us or we lay down. That is the positive reality we face. Which would you rather?
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "Itís just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill peopleís fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Your point, atop your histrionic head notwithstanding, is taken.

    Were the world different, I'd be on board. It's not. Welfare states attract vermin. Powerful, wealthy lands in conflict with other nations, rightly or otherwise, are vulnerable through borders. If one is serious about defense against malefactors coming across those borders, then he must control them. These are just two of the $#@!ty realities of a world infested with insane people. Half the world would like to eat us. Maybe we deserve that sentiment, maybe not. We either defend against those who would damage us or we lay down. That is the positive reality we face. Which would you rather?
    Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Federal forms of welfare- like food stamps, Medicare, and Social Security. Legal immigrants are prohibited for their first five years in the country. It is less of a draw than the opportunity to make a better life is.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Are you suggesting even more police state?
    There is a fundamental difference between defense of the realm and police state, just as there is one between killing in self defense and murder. The acts are superficially indistinguishable, one from the other. But context is king. I shoot the ghost from a man entering my home, uninvited, at 2 AM and I am golden. I shoot the ghost from a man, take his wallet, car keys, and drive off with his Aston Martin, chances are I'm a murderer.

    I believe a "proportional response" was called for, not "more police state". You do this sort of strawman-ish thing a lot, leaving me wondering what is the deal.

    Or is the problem not that bad?
    The "problem" is plenty bad, but I don't think it is nearly what you seem to think it is.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "Itís just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill peopleís fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Federal forms of welfare- like food stamps, Medicare, and Social Security. Legal immigrants are prohibited for their first five years in the country. It is less of a draw than the opportunity to make a better life is.
    People cheat and "refugees" get welfare immediately.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Most of those presently here illegally came legally. Should we search every business and household to try to find them and kick them out? Maybe we could get some sort of national biometric ID card to root out the ones using fake IDs. Papers please!
    We don't have to turn into a police state to have enough enforcement to minimize the problem.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    There is a fundamental difference between defense of the realm and police state, just as there is one between killing in self defense and murder. The acts are superficially indistinguishable, one from the other. But context is king. I shoot the ghost from a man entering my home, uninvited, at 2 AM and I am golden. I shoot the ghost from a man, take his wallet, car keys, and drive off with his Aston Martin, chances are I'm a murderer.

    I believe a "proportional response" was called for, not "more police state". You do this sort of strawman-ish thing a lot, leaving me wondering what is the deal.



    The "problem" is plenty bad, but I don't think it is nearly what you seem to think it is.
    I live in a large border city with many immigrants and the busiest border crossing in the world.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

    "I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

    "Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

    Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I live in a large border city with many immigrants and the busiest border crossing in the world.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201
    OK, so quoting LA Time is even less credible that NY Times, much less The Enquirer, so you lose point on that bit.

    There are valid reasons for defending a border. Those who cannot or do not acknowledge this are either bereft of sufficient intellect or have unpublished agenda items.

    Rumor has it there are 100K Chinese troops camped in the mountains of MX. I have no idea whether this is true, but if we assume so for entertainment purposes, were tens of thousands of Chinese to begin pouring across the MX border, would you assert that we should simply allow them to pass, unchallenged? Serious question to which I would like an actual answer and not some deflection. Give it a whirl.
    Last edited by osan; Yesterday at 01:50 AM.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "Itís just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill peopleís fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    OK, so quoting LA Time is even less credible that NY Times, much less The Enquirer, so you lose point on that bit.

    There are valid reasons for defending a border. Those who cannot or do not acknowledge this are either bereft of sufficient intellect or have unpublished agenda items.

    Rumor has it there are 100K Chinese troops camped in the mountains of MX. I have no idea whether this is true, but if we assume so for entertainment purposes, were tens of thousands of Chinese to begin pouring across the MX border, would you assert that we should simply allow them to pass, unchallenged? Serious question to which I would like an actual answer and not some deflection. Give it a whirl.
    Forget the Chinese. We already have middle-easterners crossing. From Yemen specifically. The country we are supporting the Sauds bombing the $#@! out of.

    Jordanian Man Arrested for Smuggling Illegal Aliens From Yemen Across the U.S.-Mexico Border

    The Department of Justice announced Monday afternoon a Jordanian national has been arrested after allegedly smuggling a number of special interest illegal aliens from Yemen into the United States through the southern border with Mexico. Special interest aliens come from countries with ties to terrorism and pose a significant risk to the safety of Americans.

    Moayad Heider Mohammad Aldairi, who lives in Mexico, was arrested at JFK airport in New York. Aldairi is accused of being paid in 2017 to work as a human smuggler and trafficking six illegal aliens into the U.S. through Texas. Accrording to prosecutors, Aldairi worked with others on the scheme.

    ďAldairi allegedly smuggled six Yemeni citizens across the Mexican border and into the United States,Ē Assistant Attorney General Benczkowski released in a statement. ďAlien smuggling puts our national security at risk, and the Criminal Division is dedicated to enforcing our immigration laws and disrupting the flow of illegal aliens into the United States.Ē
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiep...order-n2505382

    Now, had these Yemeni caused some real civilian destruction in a shopping mall or amusement park I wonder if the open borders crowd would just shrug and say "We'll, that's the cost of freedom of travel."

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    OK, so quoting LA Time is even less credible that NY Times, much less The Enquirer, so you lose point on that bit.

    There are valid reasons for defending a border. Those who cannot or do not acknowledge this are either bereft of sufficient intellect or have unpublished agenda items.

    Rumor has it there are 100K Chinese troops camped in the mountains of MX. I have no idea whether this is true, but if we assume so for entertainment purposes, were tens of thousands of Chinese to begin pouring across the MX border, would you assert that we should simply allow them to pass, unchallenged? Serious question to which I would like an actual answer and not some deflection. Give it a whirl.
    The quote was Ron Paul. I can find other publications quoting it if you like. Tens of thousands of armed people are not the same as a handful of unarmed people looking for a better life (and I do not say we should allow all of them in- just that they are getting a very disproportional fear to any threat they actually pose).

    We do need to be afraid of somebody I suppose. Politicians say we do and they promise to protect us from those if you vote for them. Fear is a very good motivator- works much better than logic. I notice Trump has been pretty quiet on the topic since the election ended. On the campaign trail it was his #1 topic. I wonder why he doesn't talk about it much now. Perhaps it was less urgent than he tried to make it seem. He doesn't have to scare the voters anymore.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; Yesterday at 01:03 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The quote was Ron Paul. I can find other publications quoting it if you like. Tens of thousands of armed people are not the same as a handful of unarmed people looking for a better life (and I do not say we should allow all of them in- just that they are getting a very disproportional fear to any threat they actually pose).

    We do need to be afraid of somebody I suppose. Politicians say we do and they promise to protect us from those if you vote for them. Fear is a very good motivator- works much better than logic. I notice Trump has been pretty quiet on the topic since the election ended. On the campaign trail it was his #1 topic. I wonder why he doesn't talk about it much now. Perhaps it was less urgent than he tried to make it seem. He doesn't have to scare the voters anymore.
    A constant trickle of invaders is actually more deadly than a single army, if they came all at once or in a few large groups we would never have let 20+ Million of them in and nobody would be agitating to give them amnesty.

    The caravans are a gamble to see if we have grown so stupid that they can start coming in ever larger numbers but they are failing because the large groups are waking people up to the threat.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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