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Thread: Article 1 Section 9

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nope.

    I dare you to show where I have interpreted the Constitution any less literally than I have here.
    K.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    P.S. I would consider supporting a "Free speech" web-hosting/search engine/file hosting service as a part of the post office, they would be the ones to run a "net neutrality" ISP as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The transfer of information is the job of the post office.

    Please pull out the same dictionary that you used to define migration and use it to define post office.
    Last edited by TheCount; 11-21-2017 at 11:52 PM.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    K.






    Please pull out the same dictionary that you used to define migration and use it to define post office.
    Definition of post

    1 obsolete : courier


    2 archaic

    a : one of a series of stations for keeping horses for relays
    b : the distance between any two such consecutive stations : stage

    3 chiefly British

    a : a nation's organization for handling mail; also : the mail handled

    b (1) : a single dispatch of mail

    (2) : letter 2a

    c : post office
    d : postbox



    Definition of courier

    1 : messenger: such as
    a : a member of a diplomatic (see diplomatic 2) service entrusted with bearing messages



    Definition of letter

    1 : a symbol usually written or printed representing a speech sound and constituting a unit of an alphabet

    2 a : a direct or personal written or printed message addressed to a person or organization
    b : a written communication containing a grant —usually used in plural
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...
    Exactly.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Exactly.
    Just what about the internet doesn't fit those definitions?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just what about the internet doesn't fit those definitions?
    All of it. It's not national, there are no couriers, and there are no letters.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    All of it. It's not national
    If the the government built it's own infrastructure it would be, try reading the context of the quote you grabbed next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    there are no couriers
    Definition of courier

    1 : messenger: such as
    a : a member of a diplomatic (see diplomatic 2) service entrusted with bearing messages

    Sounds like my ISP's employees, they provide a service bearing messages.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    and there are no letters.
    Definition of letter

    2 a : a direct or personal written or printed message addressed to a person or organization

    I got your letter and this message answering it is mine.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Definition of courier

    1 : messenger: such as
    a : a member of a diplomatic (see diplomatic 2) service entrusted with bearing messages

    Sounds like my ISP's employees, they provide a service bearing messages.




    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Definition of letter

    2 a : a direct or personal written or printed message addressed to a person or organization

    I got your letter and this message answering it is mine.
    Well, sounds like there should be a government cellular phone service for text messaging, government land line services for faxes, government printing services, government-run newspapers... really, with your definition of post office, the government needs to be involved in every means of communication.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post






    Well, sounds like there should be a government cellular phone service for text messaging, government land line services for faxes, government printing services, government-run newspapers... really, with your definition of post office, the government needs to be involved in every means of communication.
    Needs to be?

    If you go back to the original conversation where the subject came up you will find that I said it was something that government COULD do if net neutrality was so important, they MIGHT build their own infrastructure and run a net neutrality ISP as part of the post office.

    Just because government can do a thing doesn't mean it should, even if something is constitutional doesn't mean that the government NEEDS to do it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Needs to be?

    If you go back to the original conversation where the subject came up you will find that I said it was something that government COULD do if net neutrality was so important, they MIGHT build their own infrastructure and run a net neutrality ISP as part of the post office.
    The important thing is that you think that's within their powers given an overbroad and frankly ridiculously liberal interpretation of the constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just because government can do a thing doesn't mean it should, even if something is constitutional doesn't mean that the government NEEDS to do it.
    How's that working out for all the rest of the government's powers?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    an overbroad and frankly ridiculously liberal interpretation of the constitution.

    Nope, the internet fits the post office clause the same way the Air Force fits the army clause.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    How's that working out for all the rest of the government's powers?
    About as well as the enumeration of powers is working out, but you can't blame me for that or put words in my mouth.
    In point of fact government doesn't do everything it could do or that the constitution would allow it to do, it definitely does too much though.

    I want government limited by enumerated powers and I don't want it to do things just because it can.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If I walk across a line on a map to seek a job or to try to sell you something or to buy something from you, am I invading?
    Yes, you are.

    Next.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  15. #42
    Here's a good article on the migration and importation clause.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.63ffc307b13f

    Excerpt:
    The Migration or Importation Clause states that ďThe Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.Ē In and of itself, the Clause does not grant Congress any additional authority. To the contrary, it is a limitation on power. However, it could be argued that the limitation on congressional power to prohibit ďmigration or importationĒ of persons until 1808 implies that Congress had such a power to begin with. The word ďmigrationĒ suggests that that power extended to the prohibition of voluntary immigration, as well as the importation of slaves, which the Migration or Importation Clause was intended to protect.

    But the inclusion of the term ďmigrationĒ was not meant to imply a general federal power to restrict migration, but was a euphemism intended to bolster the pretense that the Constitution did not endorse slavery. As John Jay Ė the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and coauthor of the Federalist Papers Ė pointed out in an 1819 letter discussing the Clause:
    ....
    The most important observation on the constitutional question is the very obvious one that this clause does not grant the federal government any powers at all that are not already enumerated in the Constitution elsewhere.

    But even more important than the constitutional question is the moral question. Since it would be unjust for the federal government to restrict immigration, then any legislation it passes to do that is void on those grounds, no matter what the Constitution says. The Constitution does not anywhere authorize the federal government to do that, but if it did, all that would mean is that the Constitution was wrong about another thing.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Here's a good article on the migration and importation clause.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.63ffc307b13f

    Excerpt:


    The most important observation on the constitutional question is the very obvious one that this clause does not grant the federal government any powers at all that are not already enumerated in the Constitution elsewhere.

    But even more important than the constitutional question is the moral question. Since it would be unjust for the federal government to restrict immigration, then any legislation it passes to do that is void on those grounds, no matter what the Constitution says. The Constitution does not anywhere authorize the federal government to do that, but if it did, all that would mean is that the Constitution was wrong about another thing.
    You are wrong, the Constitution does grant Congress the power and it is not morally wrong.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are wrong, the Constitution does grant Congress the power and it is not morally wrong.
    Please quote the words of the Constitution you're talking about.

    And it's easy to show how it's morally wrong, if you really doubt that.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Please quote the words of the Constitution you're talking about.
    They are in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    And it's easy to show how it's morally wrong, if you really doubt that.
    It isn't morally wrong so it is impossible to show that it is.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    In a 1790 House of Representatives debate on naturalization, Madison declared:
    When we are considering the advantages that may result from an easy mode of naturalization, we ought also to consider the cautions necessary to guard against abuses; it is no doubt very desirable, that we should hold out as many inducements as possible, for the worthy part of mankind to come and settle amongst us, and throw their fortunes into a common lot with ours.
    But, why is this desirable? Not merely to swell the catalogue of people. No, sir, ’tis to encrease the wealth and strength of the community, and those who acquire the rights of citizenship, without adding to the strength or wealth of the community, are not the people we are in want of. And what is proposed by the amendment is, that they shall take nothing more than an oath of fidelity, and an intention that they mean to reside in the United States: Under such terms, it was well observed by my colleague, aliens might acquire the right of citizenship, and return to the country from which they came, and evade the laws intended to encourage the commerce and industry of the real citizens and inhabitants of America, enjoying, at the same time, all the advantages of citizens and aliens.
    I should be exceeding sorry, sir, that our rule of naturalization excluded a single person of good fame, that really meant to incorporate himself into our society; on the other hand, I do not wish that any man should acquire the privilege, but who, in fact, is a real addition to the wealth or strength of the United States.

    https://www.thenewamerican.com/world...or-citizenship
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    In addition, let us recall what Representative BURKE says during our Nations` first debate on a RULE OF NATURALIZATION, FEB. 3RD, 1790

    Mr. BURKE thought it of importance to fill the country with useful men, such as farmers, mechanics, and manufacturers, and, therefore, would hold out every encouragement to them to emigrate to America. This class he would receive on liberal terms; and he was satisfied there would be room enough for them, and for their posterity, for five hundred years to come. There was another class of men, whom he did not think useful, and he did not care what impediments were thrown in their way; such as your European merchants, and factors of merchants, who come with a view of remaining so long as will enable them to acquire a fortune, and then they will leave the country, and carry off all their property with them. These people injure us more than they do us good, and, except in this last sentiment, I can compare them to nothing but leeches. They stick to us until they get their fill of our best blood, and then they fall off and leave us. I look upon the privilege of an American citizen to be an honorable one, and it ought not to be thrown away upon such people. There is another class also that I would interdict, that is, the convicts and criminals which they pour out of British jails. I wish sincerely some mode could be adopted to prevent the importation of such; but that, perhaps, is not in our power; the introduction of them ought to be considered as a high misdemeanor.


    JWK


    There was a time not too long ago in New York when the able-bodied were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now, New York City and many other major cities are infested with countless government cheese factions from $#@! hole countries, who not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs, sex, and Lotto tickets.
    ...
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    Well, I start off with saying that it`s a big problem. I don`t like to get involved with the Federal Government very much, but I do think it is a federal responsibility to protect our borders....And that`s why I don`t think our border guards should be sent to Iraq, like we`ve done. I think we need more border guards. But to have the money and the personnel, we have to bring our troops home from Iraq. Ron Paul


    More at: http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-pa...al-sovereignty
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    All of it. It's not national, there are no couriers, and there are no letters.
    There are packets and it's global.

    Last edited by timosman; 01-30-2018 at 02:50 AM.

  24. #50
    Totally free immigration! I`ve never taken that position...Well, you work on both. The most important is the welfare state, but you can still beef up your borders and get rid of some incentives for illegals....Ron Paul


    More at: http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-pa...al-sovereignty
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...
    Did you not bother to read it? He advocates the immigration of laborers and opposes European merchants. Such an argument would support Hispanic immigrants.


    You must have also missed the part where a congressman in 1790 believed that congress did not have the power to ban immigration:

    I wish sincerely some mode could be adopted to prevent the importation of such; but that, perhaps, is not in our power;
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  26. #52
    Here's an article that argues that the federal government's power over immigration is based on the Law of Nations Clause in Article I, Section 8, Clause 10:

    https://i2i.org/where-congresss-powe...on-comes-from/

    The article includes the following link to an opposing view: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.d16fadae5398

    Interesting stuff.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Did you not bother to read it? He advocates the immigration of laborers and opposes European merchants. Such an argument would support Hispanic immigrants.
    They didn't have such a massive political difference between us and the rest of the world, socialism hadn't swept the globe yet, also he was opposed to those "who come with a view of remaining so long as will enable them to acquire a fortune, and then they will leave the country, and carry off all their property with them.", that sounds like migrant laborers to me, it also sounds like almost all work visas.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    You must have also missed the part where a congressman in 1790 believed that congress did not have the power to ban immigration:
    He was confused.
    Jefferson said congress did:



    "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #54
    In his Notes on the State of Virginia (1787), Jefferson reflects:



    • "It is for the happiness of those united in society to harmonize as much as possi- ble in matters which they must of necessity transact together. Civil government being the sole object of forming societies, its administration must be conducted by common consent.





    • "Every species of government has its specific principles. Ours perhaps are more peculiar than those of any other in the universe. It is a composition of the freest principles of the English Constitution, with others derived from natural right and natural reason. To these nothing can be more opposed than the maxims of abso- lute monarchies. Yet from such we are to expect the greatest number of emi- grants." (3)


    Jefferson warns, nearly prophetically:



    • "They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or, if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an un- bounded licentiousness, passing, as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. These principles, with their language, they will transmit to their children. In pro- portion to their numbers, they will share with us the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its directions, and render it a heterogeneous, in- coherent, distracted mass." (4)


    There is theory; and then there is reality. Jefferson was schooled in both. He knew that, to every liberal law, there were some reasonable limits.
    We need artisans, he admitted, but not enemies. We want true freedom seekers to come, but without "extraordinary encouragements." (5)
    What would Thomas Jefferson, therefore, think of an immigration policy today that, with flashing lights invites the non-working masses of the world to come--to come from countries that hate us, to a feast of "free" food, "free" health care, "free" education, "free" social security benefits, and free and instant voter registration cards? It is hard to see Jefferson calling it anything but extraordinarily unwise, and extraordinarily rev- olutionary. Jefferson would have proposed something better--a policy liberal in its ex- tension of the blessings of liberty to those who desired it, and conservative in its eco- nomic and political common sense.
    Footnotes:
    1. Bergh, Albert Ellery, Editor. "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson," Volume 3, p. 338.
    2. Ibid., pgs. 338-339.
    3. Bergh, Volume 2, p. 120.
    4. Ibid., p. 121. 5. Ibid.



    More at: http://proconservative.net/PCVol5Is2...security.shtml
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  29. #55
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They didn't have such a massive political difference between us and the rest of the world
    There wasn't a massive political difference between the US and a world full of monarchies and other dictatorships?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    "who come with a view of remaining so long as will enable them to acquire a fortune, and then they will leave the country, and carry off all their property with them.",
    You forgot to quote the words before that. I'm sure that it's a simple mistake and not part of your overall pattern of selective reading of nearly everything in order to misinterpret it in a way that benefits your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    that sounds like migrant laborers to me, it also sounds like almost all work visas.
    Then we should give people permanent residency instead of work visas so that they stay.

    Right?

    Or do you genuinely believe that the people who are applying for work visas would refuse residency and citizenship?


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He was confused.
    If he's wrong, why are you quoting him to bolster your argument? Or is he just selectively wrong on the most important point, the ability of congress to regulate immigration, but correct when relating his personal opinions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Jefferson said congress did:

    "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28
    You are confused.

    First, he never mentions Congress.

    Second, he's talking about citizens and states who advocate profit and war, and his willingness to split from them rather than maintain the union at all costs.

    Here is the next part:
    "Such is the position of our country. We have most abundant resources of happiness within ourselves, which we may enjoy in peace and safety, without permitting a few citizens, infected with the mania of rambling and gambling, to bring danger on the great mass engaged in innocent and safe pursuits at home. In your letter to Fisk, you have fairly stated the alternatives between which we are to choose: 1. licentious commerce, and gambling speculations for a few, with eternal war for the many; or, 2. restricted commerce, peace, and steady occupations for all. If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation, with the alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' I would rather the States should withdraw, which are for unlimited commerce and war, and confederate with those alone which are for peace and agriculture."


    Has absolutely nothing to do with immigrants. Both of your quotes are about merchants, and you're twisting them to be about foreign laborers.
    Last edited by TheCount; 01-31-2018 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.




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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post


    • "Every species of government has its specific principles. Ours perhaps are more peculiar than those of any other in the universe. It is a composition of the freest principles of the English Constitution, with others derived from natural right and natural reason. To these nothing can be more opposed than the maxims of abso- lute monarchies. Yet from such we are to expect the greatest number of emi- grants." (3)

    Thank you for finding this quote to support my argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    There wasn't a massive political difference between the US and a world full of monarchies and other dictatorships?
    By comparison to modern times the difference was much smaller, the monarchies of the time intruded far less into their subjects lives than modern socialists do, ask R3v if you don't believe me.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    You forgot to quote the words before that. I'm sure that it's a simple mistake and not part of your overall pattern of selective reading of nearly everything in order to misinterpret it in a way that benefits your argument.
    The words before that are irrelevant, they describe a class of people that engage in the behavior he objects to, my point is that other also engage in that behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Then we should give people permanent residency instead of work visas so that they stay.
    If there is room in this years quota of immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Or do you genuinely believe that the people who are applying for work visas would refuse residency and citizenship?
    Many would, in any case it doesn't matter, what matters is the yearly quota of immigrants.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    If he's wrong, why are you quoting him to bolster your argument? Or is he just selectively wrong on the most important point, the ability of congress to regulate immigration, but correct when relating his personal opinions?
    He is wrong about the Constitutional powers of Congress but the quote shows another example of the founders believing in immigration control.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    You are confused.

    First, he never mentions Congress.

    Second, he's talking about citizens and states who advocate profit and war, and his willingness to split from them rather than maintain the union at all costs.

    Here is the next part:
    "Such is the position of our country. We have most abundant resources of happiness within ourselves, which we may enjoy in peace and safety, without permitting a few citizens, infected with the mania of rambling and gambling, to bring danger on the great mass engaged in innocent and safe pursuits at home. In your letter to Fisk, you have fairly stated the alternatives between which we are to choose: 1. licentious commerce, and gambling speculations for a few, with eternal war for the many; or, 2. restricted commerce, peace, and steady occupations for all. If any State in the Union will declare that it prefers separation, with the alternative, to a continuance in union without it, I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' I would rather the States should withdraw, which are for unlimited commerce and war, and confederate with those alone which are for peace and agriculture."


    Has absolutely nothing to do with immigrants. Both of your quotes are about merchants, and you're twisting them to be about foreign laborers.
    They were going to secede, after they did he intended to use immigration control to exclude them from the remaining states' territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Thank you for finding this quote to support my argument.
    It shows he was concerned about allowing in too many foreigners back then before the political gap grew even wider.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    By comparison to modern times the difference was much smaller, the monarchies of the time intruded far less into their subjects lives than modern socialists do, ask R3v if you don't believe me.
    That's not what Jefferson said. He said that nothing could be more opposed than a monarchy. It's your quote, not mine.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The words before that are irrelevant
    Of course. Also the words after. All words except the one sentence that, when read out of context and with a complete, blissful ignorance of history, vaguely agrees with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If there is room in this years quota of immigrants.
    A quota doesn't sound very merit-based. I thought that you supported merit-based immigration.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He is wrong about the Constitutional powers of Congress but the quote shows another example of the founders believing in immigration control.
    I admire your ability to contradict yourself within the span of a single sentence.

    Founders simultaneously believed in immigration control and the inability of Congress to control immigration? Who, exactly, did they believe could control it then?



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They were going to secede, after they did he intended to use immigration control to exclude them from the remaining states' territory.
    It doesn't say that anywhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It shows he was concerned about allowing in too many foreigners back then before the political gap grew even wider.
    If you could be bothered to read the letter rather than just one paragraph, you'll find that he supported immigration even though the immigrants were coming from countries with different political systems. It is, like most of your quotes, arguing directly against the point that you are attempting to make.

    Don't you ever wonder why the pages that you copy from provide you only a sliver of the whole writing?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump hasn't even been in 6 months, you can't call him a boondoggle President unless he has overseen a military boondoggle for at least a year or two.


  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    That's not what Jefferson said. He said that nothing could be more opposed than a monarchy. It's your quote, not mine.
    He never imagined that politics could become as warped as they did in modern times.





    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Of course. Also the words after. All words except the one sentence that, when read out of context and with a complete, blissful ignorance of history, vaguely agrees with you.
    He wasn't a class warrior who objected to merchants, he objected to a particular behavior, a behavior that other classes of people also engage in.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    A quota doesn't sound very merit-based. I thought that you supported merit-based immigration.
    Merit is how you determine who gets the quota slots.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I admire your ability to contradict yourself within the span of a single sentence.

    Founders simultaneously believed in immigration control and the inability of Congress to control immigration? Who, exactly, did they believe could control it then?
    He is wrong about the Constitutional powers of Congress but he believes immigration SHOULD be controlled.





    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It doesn't say that anywhere.


    If you could be bothered to read the letter rather than just one paragraph, you'll find that he supported immigration even though the immigrants were coming from countries with different political systems. It is, like most of your quotes, arguing directly against the point that you are attempting to make.

    Don't you ever wonder why the pages that you copy from provide you only a sliver of the whole writing?
    It is possible to support some immigration while still being concerned that it should be controlled to protect our liberty.

    For some reason you never address this quote:

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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