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Thread: Can physical violence be justified over rhetoric?

  1. #1

    Can physical violence be justified over rhetoric?

    In keeping with the Non Aggression Principle, can physical violence be justified based on someone's rhetoric?

    Physical threats aside (or possibly even included), is there something someone could say to justify a physical/violent response?

    I would say no, not from a Libertarian perspective.

    Even if the guy cussed out my mom, wife and or children, hurled the worst insults imaginable.

    What say you guys?
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you arent allowed to criticize."



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  3. #2
    I don't give a $#@! what anybody says. Basically it's what they do. I don't like people $#@!ing with my family or my money. People can say whatever they want. It should roll off your back. The ironic thing is that this is not a libertarian issue. Liberals made it an issue over 20 years ago in colleges and the workplace. They're are the ones who think they can respond with violence from simple words. To be fair, a lot of people do it, but the rhetoric thing went way overboard. Everybody got sensitive. It's no accident that a lot of this sensitivity started right on college campuses. God they should just separate real colleges with engineering and computers and medical and call them vocational colleges. They should segregate all the women's studies $#@!s and put them in California.

    Rambling on.....

  4. #3
    Can physical violence be justified over rhetoric?
    Yup!

    Lippin' off will get me to fight.

    But I don't claim to be a libertarian or to subscribe to the NAP...

  5. #4
    I think it depends. If someone said something to me once. For example calling me a bitch or an idiot in a parking lot, then no. But if someone started harassing me - making it a point to make my life hell, then yes. A boy in high school thought it would be a good idea to start picking on me. I warned him to leave me alone. I didn't do anything to him, btw. He was just an $#@!. My brother a grade up caught wind of it and he warned him to leave me alone. Then it got to the point that the boy started calling my house constantly (it was so bad my mother had our phone number changed) and my dad found out I was getting picked on and he went and talked to the boy's parents. Nothing. He kept on. So, the young man got his ass kicked. He got an attitude adjustment and he finally learned to leave me alone.*shrug*

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  6. #5
    Words are not an inducement for fighting. Not for me. I kind of expect most people to be jerks.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  7. #6
    Leftist college students see language and violence as the same thing - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...the-same-thing

  8. #7
    There are possibilities, the obvious one being: Are they attempting to incite violence unjustly?
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  9. #8
    The Walk Away principle works just fine for me.

    Years ago I was at a rally for a candidate. About 10 minutes before admission, a white van rolled up and about a dozen misfit students piled out with little handmade signs, bad spelling, bad ideas. They lined up on a step and held up their signs. A couple of them weakly and uncertainly tried to give their talking points. I asked one, "Honey, does your mother know where you are?" Then I walked away.

    I don't understand why people feel they have to engage on everything. Just ignore it and walk away.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    The Walk Away principle works just fine for me.

    Years ago I was at a rally for a candidate. About 10 minutes before admission, a white van rolled up and about a dozen misfit students piled out with little handmade signs, bad spelling, bad ideas. They lined up on a step and held up their signs. A couple of them weakly and uncertainly tried to give their talking points. I asked one, "Honey, does your mother know where you are?" Then I walked away.

    I don't understand why people feel they have to engage on everything. Just ignore it and walk away.
    How would you react if the same group came to your family gathering at the park/lake and started cussing you and your family?

    I believe there's most definitely a time and a place to knock a smart mouth flat on his/her ass.........Simple disagreement certainly doesn't reach that threshold.

  12. #10
    Sometimes the pendulum has to swing to the far opposite end and hammer back to put the "civil" back into civil discourse. I'm with tod evans on this one. You want to autistically screech in someones face or cuss in front of elders and children in public then be prepared for backlash. SMDH. IMHO, that has become a problem in our society. At one time un-civil discourse wouldn't have been put up with by the majority and $#@!s would curtail their impolite behavior in public. There was shame and stigma attached to it. Now it seems to have become the norm.

  13. #11
    Can physical violence be justified over rhetoric?
    Unless the "rhetoric" constitutes a credible threat of aggression, no.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    How would you react if the same group came to your family gathering at the park/lake and started cussing you and your family?
    Why would someone do that?
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  15. #13
    And for the record, I talk to aggressive people every day. I am not in a position to punch them, nor them me. Courtesy and control are disciplines people don't seem to cultivate these days.

    One day I wore my local football team shirt to the grocery store. Some guy about my age or older wked up and started ragging on my shirt. (Loudly)"Sir, is this how you speak to total strangers? Kind of inappropriate, don't you think?" Walked away.

    He was no fashion plate, I can tell you.
    Last edited by euphemia; 07-22-2017 at 11:53 AM.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Why would someone do that?
    People can be idiots...

    Dope, problems at home, psych issues or just a plain ol' $#@!.....

    I hope it never happens to you but in a city odds are against you....

    So...............How would you react?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    People can be idiots...

    Dope, problems at home, psych issues or just a plain ol' $#@!.....

    I hope it never happens to you but in a city odds are against you....

    So...............How would you react?
    I live in a city, and I work in a call center. Agressive people are everywhere. I don't let them push my buttons. The only way I would respond with agression is if someone was trying to hurt more than my feelings. I've never had to do that, really.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I live in a city, and I work in a call center. Agressive people are everywhere.
    You mean people who do not like to be called out of nowhere with great news of winning a vacation package?



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  20. #17
    Nope. Call receiver for a service industry. They call, i click a button, someone goes to help.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Yup!

    Lippin' off will get me to fight.

    But I don't claim to be a libertarian or to subscribe to the NAP...
    You should consider it.

    Its a sound philosophy that can and should be applied in all aspects of life from daily interactions to the economy.

    I'm assuming youre generally opposed to coercion.
    Last edited by unknown; 07-26-2017 at 12:22 AM.
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you arent allowed to criticize."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I live in a city, and I work in a call center. Agressive people are everywhere. I don't let them push my buttons. The only way I would respond with agression is if someone was trying to hurt more than my feelings. I've never had to do that, really.
    That's the way I see it too. Once the other person gets physical, the situation changes and it's OK to defend oneself or someone weaker. But I don't really see mere words as a justification for physical violence.

    But this is coming from someone who hates violence so much that I can't even watch violent movies.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  23. #20
    Can words be considered a form of aggression? Seems a bit SJWish to me.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Can words be considered a form of aggression? Seems a bit SJWish to me.
    "Fighting words" is a legal concept that goes back hundreds of years.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  25. #22
    You're asking a loaded question.

    Insults, threats or disrespect is not "rhetoric"

    rhetoric:
    the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.

    People that insult, threaten or disrespect my loved ones can expect a violent reaction.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    People that insult, threaten or disrespect my loved ones can expect a violent reaction.
    What about public figures? Can they be criticized?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What about public figures? Can they be criticized?
    Of course, as long as you are criticizing their performance in public office.

    If you insult, threaten or disrespect them personally, I think its reasonable to expect a violent reaction from them.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    If you insult, threaten or disrespect them personally, I think its reasonable to expect a violent reaction from them.
    Can you explain how did you concoct this narrative?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Can you explain how did you concoct this narrative?
    Are you cereal? How about plain common sense and decency? How about normal, everyday good manners? How about a decent upbringing versus growing up in a barn?
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 07-26-2017 at 08:58 AM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Are you cereal? How about plain common sense and decency? How about normal, everyday good manners? How about a good upbringing versus growing up in a barn?
    Should we expect a retaliation from Maxine?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by unknown View Post
    In keeping with the Non Aggression Principle, can physical violence be justified based on someone's rhetoric?

    Physical threats aside (or possibly even included), is there something someone could say to justify a physical/violent response?

    I would say no, not from a Libertarian perspective.

    Even if the guy cussed out my mom, wife and or children, hurled the worst insults imaginable.

    What say you guys?
    I disagree.

    The sort of behavior to which you refer is a violation of another's space, so to speak. There are limits of tolerance for such trespass. This has nothing to do with butthurt, but with the (negative) right to be left alone. Invade my space, go to the ER. Let us bear in mind that much of this depends on what is being said, how, and the manner of physicality accompanying the speech.

    Let us also consider defamation. "Your mother was a whore in Tijuana", "You're a $#@!ing *****", and such expressions are not free speech when they are making untrue assertions peddled as truth. That is why such speech can be answered in courts of equity, so the losses are very real and I believe that such "assailants" take risks when they behave so atrociously.

    Consider chronic harassment. How much is someone obliged to tolerate, especially when "law" fails?

    It's a complicated issue, to be certain. I will not say that all speech is protected from violent physicality. By no means.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I disagree.

    The sort of behavior to which you refer is a violation of another's space, so to speak. There are limits of tolerance for such trespass. This has nothing to do with butthurt, but with the (negative) right to be left alone. Invade my space, go to the ER. Let us bear in mind that much of this depends on what is being said, how, and the manner of physicality accompanying the speech.

    Let us also consider defamation. "Your mother was a whore in Tijuana", "You're a $#@!ing *****", and such expressions are not free speech when they are making untrue assertions peddled as truth. That is why such speech can be answered in courts of equity, so the losses are very real and I believe that such "assailants" take risks when they behave so atrociously.

    Consider chronic harassment. How much is someone obliged to tolerate, especially when "law" fails?

    It's a complicated issue, to be certain. I will not say that all speech is protected from violent physicality. By no means.
    "Suzanimal" above also made a point about "chronic" verbal harassment. I'll have to give that a little more consideration.
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you arent allowed to criticize."

  34. #30
    As with everything else that can possibly be considered a crime, it is useless to consider this as long as we live under a statutory law system.
    In a common law system which only respects individual people as interested parties, guidelines for fighting words would be established but would not be applied universally. Each individual case would be judged on its own merits.
    I think it is clear that in such a system there would definitely be some restriction on Free Speech. you would not be considered free to push people over the edge verbally.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

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