View Poll Results: It is just that I be taxed in order to provide security for...

Voters
8. You may not vote on this poll
  • All human beings

    2 25.00%
  • All residents of my country

    3 37.50%
  • All residents of my state

    0 0%
  • All residents of my town

    0 0%
  • All residents of my neighborhood

    0 0%
  • Taxation is never just. I'm an anarchist.

    3 37.50%
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Results 91 to 106 of 106

Thread: Taxation To Finance Security - When Is It Just?

  1. #91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Sure they do. Is the general going to go out and personally force the 10,000,000 subjects to pay taxes?
    No he needs his troops, not the other generals.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You could say that the population itself is an "outside force."
    Not a serious one.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's always true, external enemy or not.
    Not when the risk is too great that they will in turn fall to the outside forces. Then they will lose their current share.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

    “If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.”

    Lewis Carroll

    “I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.”

    Linus Van Pelt, from the Peanuts comic strip by Charles M. Schulz

    "You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith"

    Alexis de Torqueville



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  3. #92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No he needs his troops, not the other generals.
    If that's the case, why does he need the other generals to defend against an external foe?
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  4. #93

    Default

    I'd missed this post earlier...

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Anarcho-capitalism not possible, because people are bad.
    So, anarcho-communism?
    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  5. #94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If that's the case, why does he need the other generals to defend against an external foe?
    Because he needs their troops against the outside force that is more powerful than the people.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

    “If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.”

    Lewis Carroll

    “I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.”

    Linus Van Pelt, from the Peanuts comic strip by Charles M. Schulz

    "You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith"

    Alexis de Torqueville

  6. #95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Because he needs their troops against the outside force that is more powerful than the people.
    It could be that, with the end of all external threats, some segment of the ruling class is expendable (it need not be that way); and if that's the case, it could be that the result is civil war (it need not be that way). This certainly doesn't show that every state, or even the average state, must fall to pieces on the outbreak of peace. Look at the US. Despite fighting lots of wars, it has no external threats. Almost the entire military establishment is expendable in that respect - yet no civil war and collapse. And, on the other hand, consider how destabilizing war itself is. How many states have collapsed in civil war or revolution as a result of war? Lots.
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  7. #96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It could be that, with the end of all external threats, some segment of the ruling class is expendable (it need not be that way); and if that's the case, it could be that the result is civil war (it need not be that way). This certainly doesn't show that every state, or even the average state, must fall to pieces on the outbreak of peace. Look at the US. Despite fighting lots of wars, it has no external threats. Almost the entire military establishment is expendable in that respect - yet no civil war and collapse. And, on the other hand, consider how destabilizing war itself is. How many states have collapsed in civil war or revolution as a result of war? Lots.
    All states throughout history have had potential enemies to worry about, the U.S. may have weaker neighbors than most but they are still there, and the U.S. is a democracy/republic so the factions can pursue control of the state by means other than civil war.
    And with world government the urge to seize it all or to break off their own hunk would be massively greater.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

    “If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.”

    Lewis Carroll

    “I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.”

    Linus Van Pelt, from the Peanuts comic strip by Charles M. Schulz

    "You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith"

    Alexis de Torqueville

  8. #97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Aliens
    Anarchists
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  9. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'd missed this post earlier...



    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

    Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

    Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

    Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

    Just answer the question. Which game is Trump playing?

  10. #99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Definition of totalitarianism



    • 1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority
    • 2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority


      They may be trying but the U.S. is not there yet.
    See post 67.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

    Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

    Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

    Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

    Just answer the question. Which game is Trump playing?

  11. #100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  12. #101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    All states throughout history have had potential enemies to worry about, the U.S. may have weaker neighbors than most but they are still there, and the U.S. is a democracy/republic so the factions can pursue control of the state by means other than civil war.
    And with world government the urge to seize it all or to break off their own hunk would be massively greater.
    Well, I think it's clear that this question can't be answered a priori.

    There's no iron law which ordains that a state must collapse into civil war absent an external threat.
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  13. #102

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    I think you need your meds adjusted.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

    Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

    Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

    Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

    Just answer the question. Which game is Trump playing?

  14. #103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Anarchists
    Anarchist aliens.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  15. #104

    Default

    Why create a government with no means in place for funding it? Especially if a major function of it is for common security?


    What if a few minutes after putting the Constitution together, every stopped and said "He waitaminute, Taxation is theft." and then an unfunded government fizzled out.


    As for the justness of Taxing people, the people deserve a say in it through their Representatives and it should not be either to high or squandered.

  16. #105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    I think you need your meds adjusted.
    What does the highlighted portion of your post mean?
    "For the average person, all problems date to World War II; for the more informed, to World War I; for the genuine historian, to the French Revolution."

    - Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

  17. #106

    Default

    No one has to be my slave in order to provide my security.

    Why does someone have to be your slave to provide for your security?

    (asking no one in particular)
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people." Ron Paul

    Please watch, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report

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