View Poll Results: It is just that I be taxed in order to provide security for...

Voters
8. You may not vote on this poll
  • All human beings

    2 25.00%
  • All residents of my country

    3 37.50%
  • All residents of my state

    0 0%
  • All residents of my town

    0 0%
  • All residents of my neighborhood

    0 0%
  • Taxation is never just. I'm an anarchist.

    3 37.50%
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Results 91 to 106 of 106

Thread: Taxation To Finance Security - When Is It Just?

  1. #91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Sure they do. Is the general going to go out and personally force the 10,000,000 subjects to pay taxes?
    No he needs his troops, not the other generals.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You could say that the population itself is an "outside force."
    Not a serious one.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's always true, external enemy or not.
    Not when the risk is too great that they will in turn fall to the outside forces. Then they will lose their current share.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #92

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No he needs his troops, not the other generals.
    If that's the case, why does he need the other generals to defend against an external foe?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  4. #93

    Default

    I'd missed this post earlier...

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Anarcho-capitalism not possible, because people are bad.
    So, anarcho-communism?
    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  5. #94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If that's the case, why does he need the other generals to defend against an external foe?
    Because he needs their troops against the outside force that is more powerful than the people.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Because he needs their troops against the outside force that is more powerful than the people.
    It could be that, with the end of all external threats, some segment of the ruling class is expendable (it need not be that way); and if that's the case, it could be that the result is civil war (it need not be that way). This certainly doesn't show that every state, or even the average state, must fall to pieces on the outbreak of peace. Look at the US. Despite fighting lots of wars, it has no external threats. Almost the entire military establishment is expendable in that respect - yet no civil war and collapse. And, on the other hand, consider how destabilizing war itself is. How many states have collapsed in civil war or revolution as a result of war? Lots.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  7. #96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It could be that, with the end of all external threats, some segment of the ruling class is expendable (it need not be that way); and if that's the case, it could be that the result is civil war (it need not be that way). This certainly doesn't show that every state, or even the average state, must fall to pieces on the outbreak of peace. Look at the US. Despite fighting lots of wars, it has no external threats. Almost the entire military establishment is expendable in that respect - yet no civil war and collapse. And, on the other hand, consider how destabilizing war itself is. How many states have collapsed in civil war or revolution as a result of war? Lots.
    All states throughout history have had potential enemies to worry about, the U.S. may have weaker neighbors than most but they are still there, and the U.S. is a democracy/republic so the factions can pursue control of the state by means other than civil war.
    And with world government the urge to seize it all or to break off their own hunk would be massively greater.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Aliens
    Anarchists
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  9. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'd missed this post earlier...



    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's right.

    ...not something we 2nd amendment supporters want to hear, but right.

    The idea that the 'oi polloi should have the same weaponry as the army is quite insane.

    ...a relic of well intended but irrational Enlightenment thinking about the nature of the people (can't work against their own interests, etc).

    The people should be armed so as to defend themselves from criminals, not so as to overthrow the government,

  10. #99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Definition of totalitarianism



    • 1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority
    • 2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority


      They may be trying but the U.S. is not there yet.
    See post 67.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's right.

    ...not something we 2nd amendment supporters want to hear, but right.

    The idea that the 'oi polloi should have the same weaponry as the army is quite insane.

    ...a relic of well intended but irrational Enlightenment thinking about the nature of the people (can't work against their own interests, etc).

    The people should be armed so as to defend themselves from criminals, not so as to overthrow the government,

  11. #100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  12. #101

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    All states throughout history have had potential enemies to worry about, the U.S. may have weaker neighbors than most but they are still there, and the U.S. is a democracy/republic so the factions can pursue control of the state by means other than civil war.
    And with world government the urge to seize it all or to break off their own hunk would be massively greater.
    Well, I think it's clear that this question can't be answered a priori.

    There's no iron law which ordains that a state must collapse into civil war absent an external threat.
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  13. #102

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    I think you need your meds adjusted.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen;

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's right.

    ...not something we 2nd amendment supporters want to hear, but right.

    The idea that the 'oi polloi should have the same weaponry as the army is quite insane.

    ...a relic of well intended but irrational Enlightenment thinking about the nature of the people (can't work against their own interests, etc).

    The people should be armed so as to defend themselves from criminals, not so as to overthrow the government,

  14. #103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Anarchists
    Anarchist aliens.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  15. #104

    Default

    Why create a government with no means in place for funding it? Especially if a major function of it is for common security?


    What if a few minutes after putting the Constitution together, every stopped and said "He waitaminute, Taxation is theft." and then an unfunded government fizzled out.


    As for the justness of Taxing people, the people deserve a say in it through their Representatives and it should not be either to high or squandered.

  16. #105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So nothing with the prefix "anarcho," for the same reason - not possible.

    It's interesting that you bring up anarcho-communism, though, since its unrealistic expectations about how people will behave mirror those of anarcho-capitalists. In anarcho-communism, everyone is supposed to work despite not working (and still taking from the common storehouse) being in their material self-interest. It's assumed that ideological zeal will overcome material self-interest. Similarly, in anarcho-capitalism, people in a position to profitably extort the public (i.e. the owners of the private defense agencies) are supposed to choose not to do so, out of respect for libertarian values.
    Well, we already know the 'public' defense agencies do this. So your fears are already manifest.
    So you're acknowledging that anarcho-capitalism is impossible, because PDAs will simply become states?
    I think you need your meds adjusted.
    What does the highlighted portion of your post mean?
    "The program of liberalism, ...if condensed into a single word, would have to read: property..."

    -Ludwig von Mises

    "Patriotism, not nationalism, should inspire the citizen. The ethnic nationalist who wants a linguistically and culturally uniform nation is akin to the racist who is intolerant toward those who look (and behave) differently. The patriot is a "diversitarian"; he is pleased, indeed proud of the variety within the borders of his country; he looks for loyalty from all citizens. And he looks up and down, not left and right."

    -Erik Maria Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn

    "The monarch is a responsible person. The fact that a monarch is responsible "to God alone," rather than to an assembly or a popular majority, is rather shocking to an agnostic mind; but while God cannot be fooled, the masses can. While it is perhaps true that "one cannot fool all the people all the time," it seems one can fool millions for centuries."

    -Ibid.

  17. #106

    Default

    No one has to be my slave in order to provide my security.

    Why does someone have to be your slave to provide for your security?

    (asking no one in particular)
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people." Ron Paul

    Please watch, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report


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