No worries. Since I asked that question, I can see how one might think that I was open to that idea. But I was trying to get clarification on her view.Originally Posted by donnay
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Has that bacon image changed to an image showing three random people and a dwarf in front of car in the dark?That reminded me of this:
lolol...huh???
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Must have been the Russians...for a while the image, at least to me, was not the bacon fat image, but rather an image of three people, one of which a middle aged tallish blond woman with long hair and glasses, and a dwarf, in front of a gray car, looked like a PT Cruiser, in a dirt parking lot, at night.
Now it's back to the bacon fat image.
Back on topic:
What would Jesus say about FrankenMeat?
Lab-grown meat is in your future, and it may be healthier than the real stuff
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...74e_story.html
I don't want men in white lab coats tampering with my goat shoulder.
Playing God is an abomination.
Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Psalm 104:14
He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
I was under the impression that he at least ate fish.
Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows
Weird. I think I'll host images on my own website instead of using those online hosting sites. Besides I'm pretty sure they don't last forever.Must have been the Russians...for a while the image, at least to me, was not the bacon fat image, but rather an image of three people, one of which a middle aged tallish blond woman with long hair and glasses, and a dwarf, in front of a gray car, looked like a PT Cruiser, in a dirt parking lot, at night.
Now it's back to the bacon fat image.
Something about that is very creepy. I think that once it's cheaper it will probably be popular, because it would be cruelty-free meat. Still, it's weird and creepy, iyam.
It's true that whenever people play God, it never ends well.
Are you concerned that it would taste different? I'm pretty sure that it's the same as regular meat, except that it lab-grow instead of taken from an animal. To me it's gross either way but at least one is cruelty-free. Also, much better for the environment.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Well, that is where all this is heading, and not just with meats, vegetables as well, driven in large part by people who think the same as you do.
We will all be sucking soylent from the replicators...that's not a future I want any part of.
And please don't take this personally, this is not directed at you but just a general remark, motivated by the fact I am feeling angry and cynical tonight: If we're waiting around for Jesus to show up on white house and save the day like Mighty Mouse, well, he'd better get off his ass and get going, because we are running out of time.
That's the impression a layman gets reading a book called the Holy Bible. I mean like it actually said he did, it never said he ate turnips as far as I know. Maybe that means Jesus thought eating turnips was immoral, or perhaps he was just allergic.I was under the impression that he at least ate fish.
God's definition of a prosperous, blessed, abundant, fertile land is based entirely on animal products.
there are like 20 other verses like this.Numbers 14:8
If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.
Animal products are even used as a poetic way to describe sex.
Song of Solomon 4:11
Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
I just found another passage that proves Jesus was not a vegan.Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
I think "pigeon" needs an update.
Let's file them under U for unclean or N for just plain nasty...
Last edited by The Northbreather; 07-13-2017 at 09:42 AM.
Look at the title of this thread. The question here is whether or not Jesus is a vegetarian, not vegan. And I'm pretty sure that no one here has stated "Jesus is a vegan."
But it's funny that you brought up that scripture. Because that is a scripture that many vegans/vegetarians use as one of the pieces of evidence that Jesus was vegetarian. If Jesus ate a "normal" diet then there would be no need to even mention his diet. However in that prophetic scripture, it specifically states it in a way that makes it sound set apart. There were actually many vegetarian Jews at that time (and to this day) so that scripture puts him more in that category of vegetarianism (which goes along with God's original design), than carnivorism or flesh-eating, which was not God's original design.
So thank you for bringing that up.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
What is it about that scripture that you like, as a flesh eater? It specifically says that God gave us plants, that we may grow food from the ground.
Psalm 104:14
14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Nothing in this world is "original Design".There were actually many vegetarian Jews at that time (and to this day) so that scripture puts him more in that category of vegetarianism (which goes along with God's original design), than carnivorism or flesh-eating, which was not God's original design.
So thank you for bringing that up.
Man was taught tools and war,, but not by God.
Medicines (potions) were taught to man. but not by God.
Women learned things too,, also not of God..
but it is the world we live in.
Be thankful for whatever God gives to eat.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
I agree that most things in this world are not the way they're supposed to be. I don't want to wrongly assume, but if I read between the lines you seem to be saying well that's just the way things are so we should go with it. I respectfully disagree. Yes, we live in a fallen world but we are taught as Christians to want what God wants… To pray that God's will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. If we just throw our hands up in the air and say well that's the way this world is, why not say that about everything and go with the flow? But we are told just the opposite, to not be like the world.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Good points. However,
Scripture makes it clear that food is not relevant spiritually.
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.“Do not call anything impure” that God has made clean.
And making it a spiritual thing is an error. and an unnecessary point of contention.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Well said pscomar.
While it is praiseworthy that one has chosen to abstain from consuming animal flesh out of love for God's creation, and it is a blessing indeed and a foretaste of the kingdom to come, nevertheless, any spiritual benefit gained is squandered right away by judging others who do lawfully consume animal flesh in this world. Especially when it involves distorting Scripture and putting one's personal interpretations over the teachings of the Church.
The life of humans, who bear the image of God in them and are endowed with the divine breath (Spirit) of God are incomparably more valued and held at higher esteem by God and His angels than are created animals, no matter how cute or innocent the animals are. We should be thankful for creation and all in it, and as good stewards, offer it back to God with reverence and respect and a spirit of thanksgiving. However, those who equate the life of animals to be of equal value with humans or who accuse the brethren for using animals, flesh and all, for sustenance and nutrition, are adding burdens to the backs of their neighbors which God has already lifted and are creating teachings which are foreign to what God has revealed through His prophets, His saints, and His Only begotten Son, Who Himself offered and still offers His own Body and Blood as manna and food for the life of the world.
Last edited by TER; 07-14-2017 at 01:32 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I'm not sure what you mean by "not relevant spiritually." If you're saying that the topic of eating is not relevant at all, biblically speaking, I would disagree. If it was irrelevant then God would not have said anything in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible about mankind’s diet. Or in numerous other passages.Good points. However,
Scripture makes it clear that food is not relevant spiritually.
And making it a spiritual thing is an error. and an unnecessary point of contention.
Eating food is something that we do three times a day, every day, so it actually has much more of an impact than I think most people realize. Not only on our physical health, but on this earth we were put in charge of, and of course the lives of the billions of animals that are needlessly being killed for our taste buds.
As Donna said earlier, this is not even about food. He was simply trying to show the Pharisees that our heart is more important than man-made traditions. And that passage is about not washing your hands before eating… Jesus was telling them that dirty hands are not makes a person dirty but the thoughts that come from the heart out of their mouth.Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
At the end of that passage, in verse 20, the last sentence clearly states what he was talking about:
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
This passage is often pointed to by enthusiastic carnivores as proof that God no longer cares what we eat. I don't want to get into a big discussion on God's dietary restrictions as stated in Leviticus and the whole clean/unclean foods thing, because I am still studying this… but I do think we have to be careful, because God doesn't change and even the Bible itself states that Paul's writings are often hard to understand and will be misunderstood. (2 Peter 3:16)They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
I do want to say that you left out something very important in the following verse:
"for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."
Again, I'm still doing a lot of studying on everything having to do with food in the Bible, so I have not yet come to a conclusion on certain things.. But in the above verse, I don't see Paul saying "eat whatever the hell you want" he is saying within the word of God. At that time they were still observing God's dietary laws, and contrary to what many Christians believe, this passage is not doing away with all of God's laws...but it can be argued that it is actually affirming them.
And in my view, those Old testament dietary restrictions don't even reflect God's perfect will anyway... rather his later concession, which is temporary, due to this corrupt age were living in.
That Acts passage is not about giving people the OK to eat whatever the hell they want.. That passage was about Jews accepting Gentiles and not viewing certain people as “clean" and others as “unclean.”“Do not call anything impure” that God has made clean.
I don't understand what you mean about making it a spiritual thing. Are you saying that it is impossible to ever eat something in a way that would make it unethical? What about if someone was sadistic and thought it would be fun to torture a horse simply because he can… So he brutally tortured the horse for the sick thrill of it and because he wanted to eat the flesh… Would that be unethical in your view?And making it a spiritual thing is an error. and an unnecessary point of contention.
What about cannibalism, not out of necessity, but simply because someone enjoys the taste of human meat? Do you think that might be problematic? Or OK, because since Jesus came along we can now eat whatever we want, right?
I was going to say more but I'm going to stop here from for now and let you answer that question. Thanks!
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Lily, you say that you are doing much studying on these topics.
Do what the God-bearing Saints of the Christian Church for the past 2000 years offer any points of study for you? Because if one studies what they have to say and their illuminated understanding of the Word of God, then it becomes very clear that in and of itself, it is not a sin to eat animal flesh. It has also never been claimed or taught that Jesus was a vegetarian. This is pure fantasy.
It is true that prophets and holy Christian saints did exist who abstained for a time during their adulthood from eating meat, but that was on account of their strict asceticism and spiritual training to control their bodily passions and subdue the desires of the flesh, and categorically NOT because it is a sin to eat animals. You are confusing the two and if you actually studied Christianity and the teachings of its saints, you would know this.
Some people's idea of 'studying' the Scriptures really amounts to them trying to find ways to impose their personal beliefs into the Scriptures through proof texting and through innovative interpretations. It is the unfortunate way many modern seekers approach the Christian faith, which is in fact diametrically opposed to the necessary Christian way of humility, and obedience, and it is really a form of pride and arrogance. To make the claims you are making, you are putting yourself above the unanimous consensus of the Saints and against the very Word of God. That is an extremely spiritually dangerous position to place yourself in. Honest study would have given you the answer very quickly in regards to this topic. But because you personally do not like the answer, you continue to 'study' and look for ways to prove your position even against the very explicit teachings of the Scriptures and the holy saints.
It is commendable that you have chosen the higher way of abstaining from meat. It truly is a more angelic way to live and if done in the right spirit, is sure to give you a purer heart and great blessings from God.
But the way you are twisting Scripture and trying to justify your way of living, at the expense of the Church and the weaker brethren among you, will likely destroy any spiritual benefit you may have had through simply abstaining from meat. It would be better for you to eat raw meat than to add the extra burden on others that you are adding, which God has already lifted on account of mercy and love toward His children.
God loves His creation which He has made, and especially His children for whom He sent His only Son to die for in order to save. He loves His children so much that he has allowed and ordained that they may use the animals He lovingly created to aid in their survival and struggle in the world, including as meat.
Do not presume you are more loving, merciful or knowledgeable than God.
Last edited by TER; 07-14-2017 at 10:52 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Agreed, and I also believe that the major world religions were started by God, because I believe He wants us to come to Him and I believe He is merciful enough to not want to artificially prevent us from going to Him by limiting salvation to one faith or sect, and that He gave information based on what each culture could accept according to time, place, and circumstance so some faiths may have received more information about some topics. In Hinduism, we are told that ahimsa or non-violence is an ideal that should be followed (much like the commandment not to kill, and the instruction to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and to love your neighbor), and that harming others in word or deed regardless of species is bad karma or sin, because all species have the same kind of spirit/soul and are part of God's creation.
Meat is also unnecessary nutritionally, and a plant based diet is at least just as healthy, which means that eating meat is not for nutrition and is unnecessary killing for the purpose of taste pleasure. I think it is better to accept that and also eat meat than to believe it is in some way necessary to eat meat. For example, I think it is better to hunt and be aware of what the animal is going through than to only buy meat at grocery stores while thinking it is bad to hunt.
From a Christian point of view, Genesis 1:29 says that plants are for food and in my view Genesis 1:28 says animals are for protecting from harm. I also take the various restrictions against eating certain kinds of animals or in certain ways to be intended as further dissuading us from eating meat, so as to say that if you must, here are some more rules to make it more difficult. This is similar to Hindu scriptures which also put restrictions on eating meat, saying to not eat some animals and if you must, there are further restrictions to discourage it.
Is this to say that Jesus would have sinned if He ate meat? From a Hindu perspective, God cannot sin because He is beyond sin (apapa-viddha) and beyond material nature (BG 7.12). He not only creates, but also destroys. Not a blade of grass moves without His will.
Well, I didn't say that it was a sin to eat animal flesh. My personal view is that it is better for Christians to not eat animal flesh, for a number of reasons. However I have not stated that it was a sin, in and of itself. It might be sinful to knowingly put desires of the flesh (i.e. our taste buds) above God's commands, such as the command to be merciful and to treat animals right, etc. However, I think that many Christians who eat meat are unaware of how horribly the animals are treated, so they are not knowingly doing something that goes against God's will.
Yes, I have looked into what the early Christians have said about it and I find it very interesting.
But first I want to say that you and I are coming from a very different standpoint. We have major differences on a number of doctrines, and in our overall way of seeking truth and studying and learning. When reading your posts, instead of seeing things like "Is this scriptural?" or "Is this in line with the word of God"… I see things like "Is this in line with the Church?” or "Is this in line with what the holy Saints said?”
That way of thinking reminds me a lot of my Mom, who is a lifelong Catholic. Whenever we talk about Christianity, or topics like salvation, etc, she always, always, always replies with "Well, I have to ask my priest about that" or "I don't know if that's what the Catholic Church teaches"... in other words, she (and my other religious relatives) put the Catholic Church first, which to me is terribly wrong, but that's a whole other topic.
As for the early Christians, including the disciples, I am currently compiling a number of very interesting quotes and information on the vegetarians of early Christianity.
I was going to post some now, but I think I will wait until I'm more ready and I will do it in a later post or in a video that I'm planning.
Some people's idea of 'studying' the Scriptures really amounts to them trying to find ways to impose their personal beliefs into the Scriptures through proof texting and through innovative interpretations.
Funny you should say that, because I feel like that is exactly what many carnivorous Christians do... ignore some scriptures and focus in on others, viewing certain scriptures through the filter of their belly, instead of God's perfect will and God's heart for peace and harmony among all creation.
It is the unfortunate way many modern seekers approach the Christian faith, which is in fact diametrically opposed to the necessary Christian way of humility, and obedience, and it is really a form of pride and arrogance. To make the claims you are making, you are putting yourself above the unanimous consensus of the Saints and against the very Word of God. That is an extremely spiritually dangerous position to place yourself in. Honest study would have given you the answer very quickly in regards to this topic. But because you personally do not like the answer, you continue to 'study' and look for ways to prove your position even against the very explicit teachings of the Scriptures and the holy saints.
I agree with you that many people approach Christianity in that way, I see it on forums all the time. As for your accusation of putting myself above the saints… we've been over this before. The saints are human beings, in other words, fallible, like you and I.
The biblical view is that all born-again Christians are saints, (1 Cor 1:2, 2 Cor 1:1, Phi 4:21-22, Psalm 16:3, Jude 1:3, Jude 1:14, etc.) all saved Christians have the Holy Spirit and we can learn directly from God.
“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie”
1 John 2:27
I do not agree with the religious idea that there is a special class of saints who cannot be questioned.
But getting back to what you said… You're making me the topic here, let's try to stick with the actual topic. Which, BTW, I didn't even want to get into in the first place, because I still have a lot of research and studying to do, and I have stated that a number of times… But when Donna posted this thread it was kind of hard to not post on it.
It is commendable that you have chosen the higher way of abstaining from meat. It truly is a more angelic way to live and if done in the right spirit, is sure to give you a purer heart and great blessings from God.
But the way you are twisting Scripture and trying to justify your way of living, at the expense of the Church and the weaker brethren among you, will likely destroy any spiritual benefit you may have had through simply abstaining from meat. It would be better for you to eat raw meat than to add the extra burden on others that you are adding, which God has already lifted on account of mercy and love toward His children.
God loves His creation which He has made, and especially His children for whom He sent His only Son to die for in order to save. He loves His children so much that he has allowed and ordained that they may use the animals He lovingly created to aid in their survival and struggle in the world, including as meat.
Do not presume you are more loving, merciful or knowledgeable than God.
I think it's unfair to accuse me of twisting scripture, when I have clearly stated that I haven't come to many conclusions, I am still researching and studying and simply presenting a different viewpoint and differing interpretations on certain scriptures related to this topic.
Also, by saying that you are implying that I'm putting vegetarianism above truth, in an intentional way, in other words accusing me of dishonesty. To me the only thing that matters is the truth. That's what I'm seeking, and I am being very careful and prayerful about it.
If, at the end of all my research, I end up where I was in the past (I didn't see any problems with eating meat from a Biblical perspective and that Jesus was a carnivore) I will accept whatever the truth is… Because I know that God cannot do wrong and that God is sovereign.
However, in the last several years, on a number of topics, I have learned that truth is often surprising… It is often not what we expect. So I am not closed off to different points of view, I am always seeking truth, but as I said before, carefully and prayerfully.
Also, you said that God has ordained that man may use animals "to aid in their survival..." Well, that may apply to some poor people in Africa or other places of extreme poverty… But in the US, Europe and other parts of the world, meat is not a necessity. One can get everything from meat from other sources, and much healthier sources… and not contributing to the horrible cruelty that goes on every day in the animal industries. So, it's not about necessity, it really just comes down to habit/tradition, and one’s taste buds.
As for the last thing you said, if that's what you think, then you don't know me at all.
Last edited by lilymc; 07-15-2017 at 04:25 PM.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
I'm about 80% sure when KJV Bible says "meat" it is a generic word for "food".
"My brethren, let us now take meat."
"Yo dudes, let's get something to eat."
- Don't lie.
- Don't cheat.
- Don't steal.
- Don't kill.
- Don't commit adultery.
- Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
- Honor your father and mother.
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
- Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
- Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV
This has been my thought on it.
However Levitcus 11 is pretty clear.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
Perhaps those dietary laws were for the purpose of weaning mankind from dead carcasses until he was out of the wilderness and established as a nation? Could be.
Last edited by Natural Citizen; 07-15-2017 at 05:12 PM.
If you know God create us and all the things on this earth and read Leviticus 11, you will see that God was warning us about the things these flesh bodies shouldn't eat to stay healthy.
It is not a sin against your soul, it's a sin against your flesh.
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
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