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Thread: In March, California had so much solar power the state paid Arizona to take the excess

  1. #1

    In March, California had so much solar power the state paid Arizona to take the excess


    550 megawatt solar farm "Topaz" in California

    California invested heavily in solar power. Now there's so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it

    LA TIMES June 22, 2017

    On 14 days during March, Arizona utilities got a gift from California: free solar power.

    Well, actually better than free. California produced so much solar power on those days that it paid Arizona to take excess electricity its residents weren’t using to avoid overloading its own power lines.

    It happened on eight days in January and nine in February as well. All told, those transactions helped save Arizona electricity customers millions of dollars this year, though grid operators declined to say exactly how much. And California also has paid other states to take power.

    The number of days that California dumped its unused solar electricity would have been even higher if the state hadn’t ordered some solar plants to reduce production — even as natural gas power plants, which contribute to greenhouse gas emissions, continued generating electricity.

    Solar and wind power production was curtailed a relatively small amount — about 3% in the first quarter of 2017 — but that’s more than double the same period last year. And the surge in solar power could push the number even higher in the future.

    Why doesn’t California, a champion of renewable energy, use all the solar power it can generate?


    In Western Kern County, solar panels on almost two square miles of land form the Beacon Solar Project, owned by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. (Mel Melcon/Los Angels Times)

    The answer, in part, is that the state has achieved dramatic success in increasing renewable energy production in recent years. But it also reflects sharp conflicts among major energy players in the state over the best way to weave these new electricity sources into a system still dominated by fossil-fuel-generated power.

    No single entity is in charge of energy policy in California. This has led to a two-track approach that has created an ever-increasing glut of power and is proving costly for electricity users. Rates have risen faster here than in the rest of the U.S., and Californians now pay about 50% more than the national average.

    Perhaps the most glaring example: The California Legislature has mandated that one-half of the state’s electricity come from renewable sources by 2030; today it’s about one-fourth. That goal once was considered wildly optimistic. But solar panels have become much more efficient and less expensive. So solar power is now often the same price or cheaper than most other types of electricity, and production has soared so much that the target now looks laughably easy to achieve...snip more http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-f...tricity-solar/

    So instead of paying others to take it, crank up electrolyzers, make hydrogen and store it. Fuel cars, trucks, trains, home heating and cooking - even weed whackers.



    Power to gas (also power-to-gas) (often abbreviated P2G) is a technology that converts electrical power to a gas fuel.[1] When using surplus power from wind generation, the concept is sometimes called windgas. There are currently three methods in use; all use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen by means of electrolysis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_to_gas

    Most gasoline engines can be modified to burn hydrogen

    We’re Hydra Energy, a Vancouver-based venture that’s powering a cleaner future by helping commercial fleet operators upgrade their vehicles to run dual fuel with hydrogen – at zero upfront cost. http://hydra-energy.ca/main-page-2/



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  3. #2
    Highest prices in the nation, yet they have to pay others to take the surplus.

    Clearly a situation that can be made worse by crony government intervention. Once again, it's a situation where consumers don't get to choose the lowest cost or environmentally friendly suppliers.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  4. #3
    What a BS headline. How is it that you pay someone to take something so valuable that you are charging your state customers for? and yes I only read the headline cos I don't really care about the logistics that made paying someone to take energy cheaper than just keeping it or giving it away.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Highest prices in the nation, yet they have to pay others to take the surplus.

    Clearly a situation that can be made worse by crony government intervention. Once again, it's a situation where consumers don't get to choose the lowest cost or environmentally friendly suppliers.
    With all due respect Brian, try to see the big picture here,

    A few years ago, most everyone said solar was incapable of scaling big.

    Now everyone that looks can see it works, and works very well. Renewable energy combined with hydrogen storage offers total energy independence, millions and millions of jobs, clean green fuel - whether one believes in "climate change" or not.

    We are looking at a paradigm shift- cheap clean DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED energy that doesn't require massive drilling into the earth and then injecting chemicals. Back to the days before the first Arab Oil embargo. We are looking at 0.75 - $1.00 price per gallon of gas equivalent.

    It's a total changed game - all that has to happen to make it work is to DO IT and DO IT NOW

    As I've said a hundred thousand times- in the next 24 HOURS the US will spend almost $200 million dollars chasing rebels around sand dunes 8,000 miles away. We've literally thrown away trillions of dollars on NOTHING except death and destruction. The only POSSIBLE EXCUSE for this absolute nonsense is that is where the US gets the oil to run the nation.

    WE DO NOT NEED IT ANYMORE. The proof is there for anyone that can see. STOP WASTING MONEY ON WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST and DO IT NOW.

    And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is. There is a clean alternative RIGHT NOW.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    What a BS headline. How is it that you pay someone to take something so valuable that you are charging your state customers for? and yes I only read the headline cos I don't really care about the logistics that made paying someone to take energy cheaper than just keeping it or giving it away.
    Obviously you don't know much about curtailment and renewable energy production.

    So now, we see posts like yours. Just a few years ago, people said large scale solar was impossible.

    How far you've come. Here's an idea- just step the frack out of the way and let people that can make the future happen do their job.

    EVERY SINGLE TIME I post on this topic on this board this happens. What the hell are you doing to make the US energy independent?

    Try to get at least a bit of understanding about the topic you're going to blather on about before you post, eh?
    Last edited by Peace Piper; 06-25-2017 at 02:35 PM.

  7. #6
    This is one of the reasons that Solar is not feasible as a high percentage of power generation, It runs when it wants to not when you need it.
    Unless somebody invents efficient large scale power storage you need majority power generation from plants that can respond to demand.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Piper View Post
    With all due respect Brian, try to see the big picture here,

    A few years ago, most everyone said solar was incapable of scaling big.

    Now everyone that looks can see it works, and works very well. Renewable energy combined with hydrogen storage offers total energy independence, millions and millions of jobs, clean green fuel - whether one believes in "climate change" or not.

    We are looking at a paradigm shift- cheap clean DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED energy that doesn't require massive drilling into the earth and then injecting chemicals. Back to the days before the first Arab Oil embargo. We are looking at 0.75 - $1.00 price per gallon of gas equivalent.

    It's a total changed game - all that has to happen to make it work is to DO IT and DO IT NOW

    As I've said a hundred thousand times- in the next 24 HOURS the US will spend almost $200 million dollars chasing rebels around sand dunes 8,000 miles away. We've literally thrown away trillions of dollars on NOTHING except death and destruction. The only POSSIBLE EXCUSE for this absolute nonsense is that is where the US gets the oil to run the nation.

    WE DO NOT NEED IT ANYMORE. The proof is there for anyone that can see. STOP WASTING MONEY ON WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST and DO IT NOW.

    And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is. There is a clean alternative RIGHT NOW.
    We only get 12.9% of our oil from the Middle East. (figures as of 2010) Canada is our biggest foreign source and Mexico is #2.


    http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444...y-be-surprised

    Also worth noting that energy is not the only thing we use oil for. It is used to produce fertilizers and to lubricate machinery and making plastics. Solar and wind cannot do any of that. If you go with electrical cars, you need the toxic elements to produce the batteries which have a limited life span.

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-25-2017 at 03:02 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Piper View Post
    With all due respect Brian, try to see the big picture here,

    A few years ago, most everyone said solar was incapable of scaling big.

    Now everyone that looks can see it works, and works very well. Renewable energy combined with hydrogen storage offers total energy independence, millions and millions of jobs, clean green fuel - whether one believes in "climate change" or not.

    We are looking at a paradigm shift- cheap clean DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED energy that doesn't require massive drilling into the earth and then injecting chemicals. Back to the days before the first Arab Oil embargo. We are looking at 0.75 - $1.00 price per gallon of gas equivalent.

    It's a total changed game - all that has to happen to make it work is to DO IT and DO IT NOW

    As I've said a hundred thousand times- in the next 24 HOURS the US will spend almost $200 million dollars chasing rebels around sand dunes 8,000 miles away. We've literally thrown away trillions of dollars on NOTHING except death and destruction. The only POSSIBLE EXCUSE for this absolute nonsense is that is where the US gets the oil to run the nation.

    WE DO NOT NEED IT ANYMORE. The proof is there for anyone that can see. STOP WASTING MONEY ON WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST and DO IT NOW.

    And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is. There is a clean alternative RIGHT NOW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    We only get 12.8% of our oil from the Middle East. (figures as of 2010) Canada is our biggest foreign source.


    http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444...y-be-surprised

    Also worth noting that energy is not the only thing we use oil for. It is used to produce fertilizers and to lubricate machinery and making plastics. Solar and wind cannot do any of that.

    Mid-east wars are about controlling the WORLD oil supply, primarily it's price but also it's distribution and potential curtailment of distribution.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Highest prices in the nation, yet they have to pay others to take the surplus.

    Clearly a situation that can be made worse by crony government intervention. Once again, it's a situation where consumers don't get to choose the lowest cost or environmentally friendly suppliers.
    Actually 7th highest as of 2015. Just above New York and below Liberty Land New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Alaska and Hawaii. Hawaii rates are nearly $10 a kw higher than #2 Alaska ($17.97 vs $26.17 per KWH) Washington State (which uses lots of hydroelectric power) is the lowest at $7.41/ kwh. http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/204.htm

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This is one of the reasons that Solar is not feasible as a high percentage of power generation, It runs when it wants to not when you need it.
    Unless somebody invents efficient large scale power storage you need majority power generation from plants that can respond to demand.
    Depends. Solar is pretty good at generating electricity when demand is highest, i.e. when air conditioners are running. Not so good in non-sunny areas though.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Depends. Solar is pretty good at generating electricity when demand is highest, i.e. when air conditioners are running. Not so good in non-sunny areas though.
    Unless it produces too much, which is what this article is about.
    You can't control it's production, so you WILL get too much or too little with great frequency if it is too large a percentage of your generation capacity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Which is why you need a portfolio of energy sources- no single one can meet all your needs. Some rely on weather which can be unpredictable. Some rely on foreign countries or shipping which under some condition can be unpredictable. Solar will not work in areas which have lots of clouds. Hydroelectric needs lots of regular moving water. Wind likes steady breezes (too strong can destroy the turbines, too weak won't be able to drive them). Then you need storage capacity if you do use something like wind or solar for when they do not produce (like at night) or an alternative source for those times.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Which is why you need a portfolio of energy sources- no single one can meet all your needs. Some rely on weather which can be unpredictable. Some rely on foreign countries or shipping which under some condition can be unpredictable. Solar will not work in areas which have lots of clouds. Hydroelectric needs lots of regular moving water. Wind likes steady breezes (too strong can destroy the turbines, too weak won't be able to drive them). Then you need storage capacity if you do use something like wind or solar for when they do not produce (like at night) or an alternative source for those times.
    That's right zip don't mention Nuclear or NatGas or coal, they are domestically produced and can adjust to demand.
    We want to pretend they don't exist.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    What a BS headline. How is it that you pay someone to take something so valuable that you are charging your state customers for? and yes I only read the headline cos I don't really care about the logistics that made paying someone to take energy cheaper than just keeping it or giving it away.
    Make no sense, just flip a few breakers to take some of it off the grid.
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Make no sense, just flip a few breakers to take some of it off the grid.
    My guess is that California is getting some tax credit greater the cost of creating said energy plus the payment to Arizona combined from the scheme. Otherwise, it would be silly not just shutting off the solar panels if only to give the infrastructure a rest.



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  20. #17
    More sophisticated appliances/hvac/charging stations, etc..... could take a large part of the load balancing.

    Like if your AC was just a tiny bit smart at all and connected to the internet. You could set your AC with a range of acceptable cooling parameters like. It's okay to cool down to 65 degrees if the power company is requesting that we help utilize excess capacity, but during normal pricing period cool to 70, and during high pricing periods allow to cool only to 75 degrees. This doesn't have to be a high end device to do this basic stuff, an arduino could do it and the cost wouldn't be more than 10 bucks.

    Same could be done with car charging. Same could be done with clothes dryers, though that would be more of a don't allow to run if the grid is overtaxed at the moment.

    Same could be done with hot water heaters

    Refrigerators could cool down a few extra degrees during excess periods as well.

    Really if you add all that "flexible" demand up that's a non-trivial amount of "temporary" adjustment you could make.


    That doesn't have to require the power company have "control" over your devices, but rather devices would have an opt in setting, and presumably you'd get lower rates during the periods the "request" was in effect based on your increase or decreased power usage at that time.


    I actually do this home brew already because I signed up for "real time pricing" www.powersmartpricing.com The prices changes ever hour for electricity, but a more sophisticated system could do it by the minute or second if you had appliances built to work with the power company.
    Last edited by RonPaulIsGreat; 06-26-2017 at 04:39 AM.

  21. #18
    Arizona is behind the curve on this one. We should be the Persian Gulf of Solar Power... there is so much potential here for a fully powered / energy surplus state system that is pisses me off to think how much money and energy is wasted.

    I suppose in time we may catch up.

    If I had the capital, I would start a solar plant in AZ somewhere and grow. The cost curve on photovoltaic and other solar tech is coming down at a crazy rate, making the production of solar power very attractive.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    More sophisticated appliances/hvac/charging stations, etc..... could take a large part of the load balancing.

    Like if your AC was just a tiny bit smart at all and connected to the internet. You could set your AC with a range of acceptable cooling parameters like. It's okay to cool down to 65 degrees if the power company is requesting that we help utilize excess capacity, but during normal pricing period cool to 70, and during high pricing periods allow to cool only to 75 degrees. This doesn't have to be a high end device to do this basic stuff, an arduino could do it and the cost wouldn't be more than 10 bucks.

    Same could be done with car charging. Same could be done with clothes dryers, though that would be more of a don't allow to run if the grid is overtaxed at the moment.

    Same could be done with hot water heaters

    Refrigerators could cool down a few extra degrees during excess periods as well.

    Really if you add all that "flexible" demand up that's a non-trivial amount of "temporary" adjustment you could make.


    That doesn't have to require the power company have "control" over your devices, but rather devices would have an opt in setting, and presumably you'd get lower rates during the periods the "request" was in effect based on your increase or decreased power usage at that time.


    I actually do this home brew already because I signed up for "real time pricing" www.powersmartpricing.com The prices changes ever hour for electricity, but a more sophisticated system could do it by the minute or second if you had appliances built to work with the power company.
    "Smart" tech is an invitation to let the power company or the government to control your appliances.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    "Smart" tech is an invitation to let the power company or the government to control your appliances.
    Sure, as long as you have an opt out option in the settings, no big deal. I really don't care if the power company knows the temperature of my refrigerator, if you do well don't enable the option.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    Sure, as long as you have an opt out option in the settings, no big deal. I really don't care if the power company knows the temperature of my refrigerator, if you do well don't enable the option.
    IF they give you the option.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    IF they give you the option.
    Well, most likely it will work off your home wifi connection, so they can avoid paying for a cellular connection, so just don't allow it wifi connection. Even if it did use cellular, you could disable it by finding the transmitter and removing it, or wrapping it in foil or something similiar, to prevent the signal.

    Anyway, I really don't think they care about your refrigerator, other than balancing the grid out.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    We only get 12.9% of our oil from the Middle East. (figures as of 2010) Canada is our biggest foreign source and Mexico is #2.
    Uh, Zippy, do your bosses over at the Fed know you're here saying these wars are not all about oil? Would they approve of you causing us to think, and possibly notice that all these wars are on countries who don't have a Rothschild Central Bank (TM)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Also worth noting that energy is not the only thing we use oil for. It is used to produce fertilizers and to lubricate machinery and making plastics.
    That's better. Now you're back on script.

    I must admit, you do come in handy that way. If ever we wonder if a particular war is about that nation not having a Rothschild Central Bank (TM), all we have to do is start a thread asking what that war is for. If you pop up and try to change the subject, then we know for sure.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-28-2017 at 09:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Piper View Post
    And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is. There is a clean alternative RIGHT NOW.
    You're a zealot, an evangelist, and like most of that persuasion, you are coming off as distasteful and off-putting.

    If the alternatives offered are fiscally sound and can assimilate into current engineering and logistical parameters, then the market will adopt them.

    If not, they will not, unless forced to by government mandate, which skews and disrupts further advances and breakthroughs.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Actually 7th highest as of 2015. Just above New York and below Liberty Land New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Alaska and Hawaii. Hawaii rates are nearly $10 a kw higher than #2 Alaska ($17.97 vs $26.17 per KWH) Washington State (which uses lots of hydroelectric power) is the lowest at $7.41/ kwh. http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/204.htm
    That's not dollars, zip, that's cents and tenths of cents.

    My NH electric charges, combined generation and distribution, are $0.14 per kwh compared to $0.16 on the chart.

    My rates are lower because I am on a non profit, town run grid.

    It doesn't help matters that many small hydro plants in northern New England have been taken out of service because of "green" issues concerning fish stocks.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    Like if your AC was just a tiny bit smart at all and connected to the internet.
    Yeah, that is what will prompt me to go to fully off grid solar.

    I have no use for the "internet of things" monitoring and tracking and surveilling every single thing inside my home.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If the alternatives offered are fiscally sound and can assimilate into current engineering and logistical parameters, then the market will adopt them.

    If not, they will not, unless forced to by government mandate, which skews and disrupts further advances and breakthroughs.
    To a certain extent. Electricity delivered to your home is not really a functioning market. There is a single provider, and that provider will either have it's own generation, or close relationships with generators.

    There is a lot of inertia and self-interest that will delay adoption of new technology or new providers. They are the entire supply chain. They will keep using their existing delivery and generation equipment even if lower cost alternatives are available.

    And to make it worse, attempts to make it a more liquid commodity have failed dramatically ala Enron, as those bastards can and did shut off the lights and held people hostage for electricity.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    To a certain extent. Electricity delivered to your home is not really a functioning market. There is a single provider, and that provider will either have it's own generation, or close relationships with generators.

    There is a lot of inertia and self-interest that will delay adoption of new technology or new providers. They are the entire supply chain. They will keep using their existing delivery and generation equipment even if lower cost alternatives are available.

    And to make it worse, attempts to make it a more liquid commodity have failed dramatically ala Enron, as those bastards can and did shut off the lights and held people hostage for electricity.
    Fair enough, if you are talking strictly about grid supplied power.

    I was thinking more of individual home systems.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You're a zealot, an evangelist, and like most of that persuasion, you are coming off as distasteful and off-putting.
    Damn right I'm a hydrogen zealot- hydrogen offers jobs and clean DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED energy. Frankly, and no offense meant, I really don't care how I come across to fans of fracking, and really do hope a crew of frackers show up down the street. Drilling holes thousands of feet into the earth and then injecting chemicals to force natural gas out is insane. It causes earthquakes, flammable water coming out of the tatp and who knows yet what else.

    Hydrogen gas can be obtained with water and electricity. Every town could have multiple hydrogen stations, providing locally produced energy that people could run their cars on, cook with, heat their homes with etc. There's nothing that natural gas can do that Hydrogen can't. Bonus: Hydrogen is safer than natural gas and propane.


    Fracking-dense countryside, showing web of roads, pipelines and well pads. Credit: Simon Fraser University – University Communications, CC BY 2.0. Who could POSSIBLY think that this is a good thing.

    If the alternatives offered are fiscally sound and can assimilate into current engineering and logistical parameters, then the market will adopt them.

    If not, they will not, unless forced to by government mandate, which skews and disrupts further advances and breakthroughs.
    This works only if people know about these alternatives. For whatever reason, very few people in the US are talking about Solar/Wind hydrogen.


  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace Piper View Post

    WE...
    There's that word.


    And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is...
    And there's the demagoguery. One has to wonder why such fabricated hysteria is necessary if the science is sound. http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/0...about-fracking

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