View Poll Results: Should US apologize for financing radicalization of Afghan children in 1970s-80s?

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  • Yes, financing radicalization of children is always immoral

    5 83.33%
  • No, it was the right thing to do at the time

    0 0%
  • Other/confused

    1 16.67%
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Thread: Should US apologize for financing radicalization of Afghan children in 1970s-80s?

  1. #1

    Should US apologize for financing radicalization of Afghan children in 1970s-80s?

    Should US apologize for financing radicalization of Afghan children in 1970s-80s?

    Or that was the right thing to do at the time to fight Russians in a proxy war without risking lives of our own men in a direct war with Russia to contain spread of communism?



    Afghanistan of 2017

    Shabana Basij-Rasikh, a 2014 National Geographic Explorer, wants to bring an end to the “bacha posh” tradition in Afghanistan.

    The Hidden Girls of Afghanistan In Afghanistan, a mother explains why she dresses her 9-year old daughter as a boy.

    By Casey Smith
    PUBLISHED June 19, 2017

    As a child, Basij-Rasikh dressed as a boy to walk to school in Taliban-held Afghanistan where no schools existed for girls. The practice is known as “bacha posh”—the literal translation from Dari is used to describe a girl “dressed like a boy” in Afghanistan. (Read “Afghan Woman Who Once Went to School in Disguise opens Boarding School for Girls”)
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/06/afghanistan-education-bachaposh-women-shabana-basij-rasikh/




    1980s, Reagan's MAGA era

    USA prints extremist textbooks to radicalize Afghan children
    Afghanistan in 1970s, before US radicalization intervention



















    Update 1:

    07-02-2021

    20 years of latest hot war but almost 40 years span covers full overt/proxy US military involvement there. Media experts' customary analyses on the return for lost tens of thousands of American lives/limbs in blood & $Trillions in treasure will be splashed across media for a week or so after marking the historic milestone of leaving behind about a 1000 US troops (plus few thousand American contractors) but no guarantee if any lasting lessons will be learnt.


    Afghanistan: Remembering the Long, Long War We Would Rather Forget

    A now declassified memorandum that National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski sent to Carter on Dec. 26 offers a rare historical example in which it is possible to trace the origins of major consequences to a single document. In it, Brzezinski, the anti-Soviet son of a Polish diplomat, misused history by claiming that if Moscow succeeded “the age-long dream of direct access to the Indian Ocean will have been fulfilled.” The fall of the Shah of Iran in January had enflamed the Middle East into what Brzezinski termed an “arc of crisis;” Carter was facing a tough reelection challenge from Republican front-runner Ronald Reagan and badly needed to reverse the perception that his foreign policy was failing. The President began to hyperbolize that Moscow’s aggression in Afghanistan “would threaten the security of all nations.”

    Determined to deliver the Soviet Union its own Vietnam, Brzezinski advised the president that it was essential that the Afghan resistance continue. Carter approved a covert action finding that increased the program, code-named Operation Cyclone, to $50 million. He took to calling the mujahedeen “Freedom Fighters” (a label that Ronald Reagan and Charlie Wilson later appropriated as they poured support into the program). Brzezinski outlined four courses of action in the Dec. 26 memo, each of which Carter approved. They would have enduring and fateful consequences.

    In Afghanistan, the purposes of Saudi Arabia, jihad against the atheistic foreign invader, and the United States, the Cold War against the Soviet Union, overlapped. With the Inter-Services Intelligence as executive agent, this intersection brought the most radicalized Islamists among the Afghan mujahedeen into association with the Afghan Arabs, including Osama bin Laden.

    Defeat of the Soviet superpower in Afghanistan was the inspiration for 9/11, which bin Laden organized from sanctuary the Taliban gave al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Most of the attackers were Saudi, while the Wahhabi program thrives throughout the Muslim world today. The Afghan Arabs were also the model for the foreign fighters who flowed to Iraq and Syria, first under al-Qaeda in Iraq and then under the self-proclaimed Islamic State. No one responsible for Operation Cyclone realized at the time they were sowing the wind.

    How A Quest To Save Soviet Jews Changed The World


    Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman speaks at an award ceremony for immigrant scientists at Tel Aviv University on Oct. 26. Lieberman is one of the Soviet Jewish emigres who moved to Israel.

    On Dec. 12, 1987, a quarter-million people gathered in Washington, D.C., on the eve of a historic summit between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev. They came from all over the country to a rally aimed at freeing Jews in what was then the Soviet Union.

    Among the speakers was George H.W. Bush, who was vice president at the time. In his speech, he echoed the words of Reagan at the Berlin Wall, "Mr. Gorbachev," he said, "Let these people go. Let them go."
    Author Gal Beckerman explores that moment, and that movement, in his new book When They Come For Us, We'll Be Gone: The Epic Struggle to Save Soviet Jewry.
    He tells NPR's Guy Raz that the day after the rally, Reagan stood with Gorbachev in the Oval Office and asked if he'd seen footage of the demonstration.

    "Gorbachev kind of shook it off, but it was clear this sent a very strong message," Beckerman says.

    A History Of Persecution
    Jews had been persecuted in the Soviet Union through much of the 20th century. In 1970s Moscow, a city with hundreds of thousands of Jews, there was only one synagogue. Beckerman says there was no way to become a rabbi or even eat kosher food.

    Desperate To Flee
    While Soviet Jews could apply to leave the country, the vast majority were denied. They became known as "refuseniks" and were often unable to get a job.
    "You became almost a pariah inside of Soviet society and it led to a whole series of bad things that could happen to you," he says. "You'd lose your job, but then it was illegal to be without a job -- you would be accused of parasitism. And then you suddenly had people who were former world renowned scientists working as stokers, shoveling coal or elevator operators, because the government would assign you to a job."

    Beckerman says many of those who were desperate to flee were Zionists -- they wanted to go to Israel. In the summer of 1970, a group from Latvia was determined to make it there any way they could.
    They decided to hijack a plane.

    The group found a 12-seater scheduled to fly to Sweden. They planned to take over during a stopover in Finland.
    But the plan never came to fruition. The KGB tackled and arrested some of the group on the tarmac the day they planned to hijack the plane.
    "Just in the Soviet Union, if you had two people involved in anything, you could be sure that one of them was somehow talking to the KGB," Beckerman says.
    However, he says, the group wrote a sort of "suicide note."
    "They wanted to make sure that if they were caught or killed in the process, the world would know somehow why they did this. The Soviets couldn't just paint them as criminals who were trying to hijack a plane."
    After the arrest, the Soviets seized the opportunity to paint the Latvians as religious extremists. The knew "they could put on a very large show trial and show the world in fact, that these were not these idealistic Zionists that they said they were, but Zionism was really a mask for 'hooliganism," Beckerman says.
    And the end of a swift trial, the judge sentenced the group's two leaders to death. Beckerman says the verdict reverberated across the world.

    The Effect On U.S. Policy
    As the movement gained more prominence, it began to influence the way the United States formulated its foreign policy. At the forefront of the shift was a senator for Washington state -- Henry "Scoop" Jackson.
    Beckerman says Jackson's interest in the movement was triggered in August 1972 when the Soviets started to let out some Jews, but was requiring them to pay a "diploma tax" for education they had received from the Soviet state. This bothered Jackson especially because, at the same time, they were involved with the U.S. in trade talks and seeking so-called "preferred trading status."
    "Henry Jackson said, 'You know what, no. If they want these things -- these goodies from the U.S. -- they have to do something as well. And what we want from them in exchange is for them to change something about their internal policy that's making Soviet Jews in particular suffer,' " Beckerman says.
    Over the next decade, those sentiments had a profound influence on American foreign policy.
    "Every time Gorbachev would walk into meeting with Reagan by the mid-'80s, the first thing Reagan would do -- and we see this in memoirs and oral histories -- is Reagan would pull out a piece of paper with names of Soviet Jews who had been refused visas or had been somehow sent to prison for their activism and he said, 'Well if you want to talk, first we have to discuss these names,'" Beckerman says.
    Eventually emigration restrictions eased and Soviet Jews were allowed to leave in larger numbers. Among those who left are Avigdor Lieberman, now Israel's foreign minister, and Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google.


    Jihad with US-Arms – The Soviet–Afghan War

    The moment the Soviet Union inserted itself in the Afghan Civil War, they started a domino-like spiral of violence that continues even to this day nearly 40 years later. On one side of the situation, the Soviets were never able to assert and gain control over the huge country.

    On the other side of the problem, the United States, via CIA operatives and neighboring Arab countries, supported guerrilla fighters by delivering arms to support their resistance efforts.

    Naming themselves the Mujahideen, the resistance fighting militias considered themselves embroiled in a Holy War against the invading communist infidels. Even after the Red Army pulled out of the country Afghanistan remained in a continued state of chaos.

    The Taliban rose to and seized power in the war-torn nation. Following the events of 9/11 NATO forces invaded the embattled country making roughly the same mistakes the Russians did a generation earlier.

    The Soviet–Afghan War lasted nearly a decade from December 1979 to February 1989. The Mujahideen resistance fighters fought a war of attrition against the Soviet Army and allied Afghan forces. In all, approximately 850,000 to 1.5 million civilians were killed over the decade long conflict and millions of other Afghans were forced to flee their homeland as refugees. Most resettled in Pakistan or Iran.
    warhistoryonline.com/featured/jihad-with-us-arms-the-soviet-afghanwar.html

    1980s: Reagan's MAGA Revolution
    USA prints extremist textbooks to radicalize Afghan children




    "Every time Gorbachev would walk into meeting with Reagan by the mid-'80s, the first thing Reagan would do -- and we see this in memoirs and oral histories -- is Reagan would pull out a piece of paper with names of Soviet Jews who had been refused visas or had been somehow sent to prison for their activism and he said, 'Well if you want to talk, first we have to discuss these names,'" Beckerman says.

    The former Soviet citizens who flooded into Israel decades ago have changed the country's demographics.

    The Soviet–Afghan War lasted nearly a decade from December 1979 to February 1989.
    The Mujahideen resistance fighters fought a war of attrition against the Soviet Army and allied Afghan forces. In all, approximately 850,000 to 1.5 million civilians were killed over the decade long conflict and millions of other Afghans were forced to flee their homeland as refugees.

    Related


    Poll: Reckless Putin: "US nurtured Al-Qaeda & Bin Laden, supported terrorists in Chechnya"







    The Immorality of Leaving Iraq and Afghanistan
    By Dennis Prager
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/...dennis-prager/


    From:
    Biden says no more questions on Afghanistan, wants to ‘talk about happy things’
    July 2, 2021



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  3. #2
    Radicalization problem was not tackled well by DGP, and no clear policy vision/financial commitments from Trump so far to fight violent extremism:

    Why Women Are Crucial to Fighting Radicalization in Afghanistan

    Mariam Safi is one of just a handful of researchers focusing on the role of women in post-conflict peace building in Afghanistan. As part of our “Women and Jihad” series, she tells us about the pivotal role women can play in combating the Taliban.



    Afghan women attend a lecture titled “Necessities of Permanent Peace,” organized by the Afghanistan Women’s Council in Kabul in 2008. As the main decision-makers in Afghan families, women can be a powerful force in the fight against radicalization. AP/Musadeq Sadeq After the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, the Afghan public hoped that decades of conflict and tragedy were coming to an end. But change was slow to materialize, and many saw their situation get worse, not better. When the Taliban started fighting back, many civilians felt so disillusioned with the peace process that their support for the insurgency grew.
    Mariam Safi is one of the few female researchers and experts from Afghanistan focusing on the role of women in post-conflict peace building and countering violent extremism. As deputy director of the Centre for Conflict and Peace Studies in Kabul, she has produced research highlighting the crucial role women have played with regard to the Taliban, including convincing family members not to sign up to fight. She says the fact that women are key figures in community and family settings in Afghanistan means they are also crucial to counter-extremism work.
    Women & Girls spoke to Safi about how efforts to tackle extremism should start in the home.
    Women & Girls: What are we talking about when we say “violent extremism” in the Afghan context?

    Mariam Safi: There are lots of active [extremist] groups, and we’re just in the process of trying to identify them and the different variations and the fine lines between them. It’s not entirely clear right now, because the research is very limited.

    https://www.newsdeeply.com/womenandg...on-afghanistan

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Other - Yes, the US should apologize, no radicalization of children is not always immoral

    There are circumstances in which the policy the US pursued would have been justified. In the actual circumstances, it wasn't, IMO.

    The bolshevik state was already in decline, no need to set the Mid East on fire to bring them down.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Other - Yes, the US should apologize, no radicalization of children is not always immoral

    There are circumstances in which the policy the US pursued would have been justified. In the actual circumstances, it wasn't, IMO.
    That is interesting take.
    A follow up question. Given such circumstances, radicalization of just foreign children can be morally done or US government could radicalize American children too?
    If you can cite a real or hypothetical circumstance where it would be moral for US government to do so, would help understand your view.

  7. #6
    Mandatory video in this context:


  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    A follow up question. Given such circumstances, radicalization of just foreign children can be morally done or US government could radicalize American children too?
    People are people, so yes, doesn't matter whether foreign or American.

    It's a moral cost-benefit analysis. Suppose Ancapia is being invaded by Genocideville. Ancapia can end the war easily in 1 day at the cost of 1 innocent life (someone who will be caught in the crossfire). Alternatively, Genocideville will conquer Ancapia and exterminate the entire population. What should be done? ..the answer is obvious, no?

    In most real situation, of course, the answer is much less obvious, much there still has to be an answer; trade-offs must be made.

    If you can cite a real or hypothetical circumstance where it would be moral for US government to do so, would help understand your view.
    Suppose some children in some country are being indoctrinated in violent revolutionary communism.

    And the US is in position to indoctrinate them instead in moderate democratic socialism, and only that doctrine.

    Which is less bad?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Mandatory video in this context:

    True. It would also be mandadtory part of any curriculum on Neoconism 101.


    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    People are people, so yes, doesn't matter whether foreign or American.

    It's a moral cost-benefit analysis. Suppose Ancapia is being invaded by Genocideville. Ancapia can end the war easily in 1 day at the cost of 1 innocent life (someone who will be caught in the crossfire). Alternatively, Genocideville will conquer Ancapia and exterminate the entire population. What should be done? ..the answer is obvious, no?

    In most real situation, of course, the answer is much less obvious, much there still has to be an answer; trade-offs must be made.



    Suppose some children in some country are being indoctrinated in violent revolutionary communism.

    And the US is in position to indoctrinate them instead in moderate democratic socialism, and only that doctrine.

    Which is less bad?
    Ok, if I'm reading it right, in your first hypothetical example indigenous people of a land can morally radicalize their children to fight "mother of all violence" type or WMD armed invaders.

    Second example does not to fit in current context as we are not talking about moderate indoctrination but violent extremist radicalization of this type:


    ABC of Violent Jihad
    USA prints extremist textbooks to radicalize Afghan children




    If you can cite a realistic circumstance when financing violent extremist Jihad is morally okay for US, that would be informative.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Ok, if I'm reading it right, in your first hypothetical example indigenous people of a land can morally radicalize their children to fight "mother of all violence" type or WMD armed invaders.
    That example didn't involve indoctrination at all, just a trade off between 1 innocent death and many more - to illustrate the logic of pragmatism.

    Second example does not to fit in current context as we are not talking about moderate indoctrination but violent extremist radicalization of this type
    It was an example of how indoctrination in general could be justified.

    If you can cite a realistic circumstance when financing violent extremist Jihad is morally okay for US, that would be informative.
    Sure, in a minor variation of the last example:

    Suppose some children in some country are being indoctrinated in violent revolutionary communism.

    And the US is in a position to indoctrinate them instead in moderate democratic socialism radical Islam, and only that doctrine.

    Which is less bad?



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