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Thread: Are People Really Too Stupid To Take Care Of Themselves?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Name a union that isn't a political arm. Like socialism, it's a great theory but ignores basic human nature.

    But what I'm hearing is that the liberals are right - people really are too stupid to care for themselves, so we need unions, laws and government to make sure people are "treated fairly."

    I was afraid of that.
    Now hold on...that's not what I'm saying, at least the laws and government part.

    Have you ever consulted an attorney?

    Hired a mechanic?

    Seen a doctor?

    Why?

    Because it's presumed that that person knows more about the subject than you do.

    Obviously these truckers got shafted...didn't know the language, didn't know the law, didn't know how to read (we can leave aside the argument about why we are insisting on importing millions and millions of semi-literates like these guys for another time) and could not afford to hire legal advice.

    To band together as a team of people and pool resources to hire somebody to review legal clauses and negotiate a better deal is hardly "top down government central command socialism".
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-18-2017 at 06:42 PM.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Name a union that isn't a political arm.
    That does not prove it has to be that way
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Like socialism, it's a great theory but ignores basic human nature.
    So does every other theory in economics. All theory suffers when it meets application. Nothing humans do is beyond corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But what I'm hearing is that the liberals are right - people really are too stupid to care for themselves, so we need unions, laws and government to make sure people are "treated fairly."
    Some yes but not what we have and certainly not more which is what Liberals want.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Which is what a union is.
    It does not have to be.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Usually, suppliers banding together to control the price of a commodity is illegal.
    To keep people "safe" from being swindled, because they are too stupid to do otherwise.

    #triggered

    SOCIALISM!!!



    Kidding aside, yes, I understand that "price fixing" to control a commodity price is in general illegal, but there are other facets of delivery and distribution and storage and any number of deals made in the supply chain to efficiently move commodities in bulk.

    And should it even be illegal?

    ETA 2 - Hey, might be way to eliminate all unions. Charge them with collusion and price fixing.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-18-2017 at 06:48 PM.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Usually, suppliers banding together to control the price of a commodity is illegal.
    But collective negotiation (as opposed to control) is not, and if it is it should not be. (barring special circumstances)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Now hold on...that's not what I'm saying.

    Have you ever consulted an attorney?

    Hired a mechanic?

    Seen a doctor?

    Why?

    Because it's presumed that that person knows more about the subject than you do.

    Obviously these truckers got shafted...didn't know the language, didn't know the law, didn't know how to read (we can leave aside the argument about why we are insisting on importing millions and millions of semi-literates like these guys for another time) and could not afford to hire legal advice.

    To band together as a team of people and pool resources to hire somebody to review legal clauses and negotiate a better deal is hardly "top down government central command socialism".
    I'm not big on banding together because libertarianism: what's right for you is probably not right for me. Fictional you has a wife and 8 kids on 30 acres, fictional me has no kids, no mortgage and will happily live in my truck.

    But my original question remains: why would a guy keep working a job where he was netting less than $1 a week?
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But collective negotiation (as opposed to control) is not, and if it is it should not be. (barring special circumstances)
    But until Right To Work finally passed, there was no individual negotiation allowed. That's incompatible with a free market.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    T
    ETA 2 - Hey, might be way to eliminate all unions. Charge them with collusion and price fixing.
    I think Right To Work is a better solution. If you want to band together and hold out for a better deal then alrighty. But that shouldn't give unions the right to stop me from cutting a seperate deal.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But until Right To Work finally passed, there was no individual negotiation allowed. That's incompatible with a free market.
    In case you did not understand I am against most unions most of the time, and although I am not certain what I would think in a perfect libertarian world I support "Right to work" laws in our current world.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I'm not big on banding together because libertarianism: what's right for you is probably not right for me. Fictional you has a wife and 8 kids on 30 acres, fictional me has no kids, no mortgage and will happily live in my truck.
    Oh listen, I hear you.

    I am not a joiner, I'm not a group person, I don't generally like people and I live a fairly solitary life.

    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal.

    Hell, every day I work I have to do that, I rely on the crew to do all their jobs, as there are too many to do all by myself.

    And there is nothing more free market libertarian than the concept of division of labor.

    But the sad fact is that the more you do that, the more you specialize, the more you must rely on others and teams.

    And when you do that you ultimately find yourself acquiescing your desires and wants to those of the group.

    That is why I do so despise this modern world that is being thrust upon us. We will all be atoms of individuality, free to fly our freak flag as high as we want, but real freedom will be a foreign concept to the Brave New World, because real freedom requires true autonomy, and that just cannot be permitted in the regulatory nanny state hell that the prison planet is turning into.

    But my original question remains: why would a guy keep working a job where he was netting less than $1 a week?
    I'm guessing because if they didn't they would lose everything they had put into what they thought was some sort of "rent to own" scheme to purchase a truck.

    Even more important to keep in mind, none of this would have happened if some environmental jihadist in the Kalifornia government had not issued a fatwa banning all the old trucks these guys were keeping going, and would have eventually cycled out for newer, cleaner equipment as years rolled by anyway.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-18-2017 at 07:10 PM.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I think Right To Work is a better solution. If you want to band together and hold out for a better deal then alrighty. But that shouldn't give unions the right to stop me from cutting a seperate deal.
    Not opposed.

  13. #42

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    I , of course would never participate in a labor union . I would though be happy to help negotiate any contracts for Danke to participate in .

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Because they only make the problem worse.
    And they do. Union is, and of itself, not a bad free market endeavor. Forever "middle men" becomes, over time, not much different than governmental bureaucracy.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelatc
    The reason I ask is that one of the foundations of Libertarian philosophy is that we don't need labor laws and minimum wages because people won't bother to work if they're not making money. And yet...here's this guy.
    It is almost impossible to get a "job" that doesn't require some kind of regulatory red tape BS that cost the worker money in order to work. Phluck Regulatory BS.
    It seems that a lot of people vote in favor of these things so what can you do? For a lot of people no matter which they they turn some bureaucrat has their hand out. This is pretty much why Trump won is the working class person is getting screwed for a long time now. I used to have several different licensures but I gave them all up because I just couldn't stand asking regulatory boards for permission to do what I am trained to do.

    I am a minimalist I live very simply on the least amount of money I can eek by on. Not being dependent on money has taught me many things about the system and avoiding entanglement with it.

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You too...you're nuts if you think it's not gonna happen.
    Not saying it won't happen, but not in our lifetimes. Unlike a boat or truck, a plane can't just stop or pull over where rescue crews are sent.

    There are currently too many variables involved getting people from point A to B safely and efficiently that don't require constant human interactions.
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You do know that you [dannno] are a moron right?
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I love Che because...
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    ...he did that which I was too cowardly afraid to do
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post

    It doesn't take one tenth the skill and brawn and brains it did 50 years ago to fly a plane, conn a ship, or drive a truck today.
    I have been flying for over 40 years, and some in jets designed in the '50s. Your statement WRT flying is fallacious.
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You do know that you [dannno] are a moron right?
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I love Che because...
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    ...he did that which I was too cowardly afraid to do
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  18. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Usually, suppliers banding together to control the price of a commodity is illegal.
    And why is that? Oh yeah, government interference.
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You do know that you [dannno] are a moron right?
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I love Che because...
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    ...he did that which I was too cowardly afraid to do
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  19. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But until Right To Work finally passed, there was no individual negotiation allowed. That's incompatible with a free market.
    You are contradicting yourself. They can just go work somewhere else, right? A place that is not a "Closed Shop."
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You do know that you [dannno] are a moron right?
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I love Che because...
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    ...he did that which I was too cowardly afraid to do
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  20. #49

  21. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I have been flying for over 40 years, and some in jets designed in the '50s. Your statement WRT flying is fallacious.
    When was the last time you pulled out an aviation sextant and shot night star sights to determine your position?

    ETA - I can't speak to an ATP's work, that much is true, I hold nothing more than a rinky dink PP ticket and that is long out of date.

    But I can say a new, or mostly new Skylane 182 is a much easier aircraft to fly than one equipped as originally delivered in 1956.

    ETA 2 - And and I can tell you without any reservation, that, after going to sea for 40 years, some on vessels close to a hundred years old now, and they are much easier to operate now, than then.

    Hell, I could train an 18 year old kid to do the bulk of my job in a month.

    IF all the whiz bang technology is operating properly.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-19-2017 at 01:01 PM.

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not saying it won't happen, but not in our lifetimes. Unlike a boat or truck, a plane can't just stop or pull over where rescue crews are sent.

    There are currently too many variables involved getting people from point A to B safely and efficiently that don't require constant human interactions.
    "Lifetime" is an unknown variable.

    I'm saying within 20 years, most all modes of transportation in the developed world, trucks, trains, cars, planes and ships, will be either autonomous (operating by themselves without direct oversight) or remotely operated (semi-autonomous, mostly operating by themselves, but still requiring human oversight, done remotely).

    ETA - With this caveat: all of that will get put on hold if the machines $#@! up in some way resulting in a spectacular and disastrous crash of some kind.

    That will spook the public and push back the mad rush forward.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-19-2017 at 07:18 AM.

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The reason I ask is that one of the foundations of Libertarian philosophy is that we don't need labor laws and minimum wages because people won't bother to work if they're not making money. And yet...here's this guy.
    He, like many in Silicon Valley, is "working for equity, not for cash." Only a chump would work for cash rather than equity, right? That's the rationale. "Think of the upside!"

    And there is a big upside. But, it can take a long time to materialize. (And by then, in this particular case, California may have banned the new truck, too).
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  24. #53

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    ...yeah...screw the unions!..those workers don't need any preferential treatment!...only white collar professional people deserve preferential treatment because they earned their government license$/advantage$!...let's keep the bankster$ in control of everything!..the banksters have the $pecial knowledge needed to manage the free market!...and the bankster$ know exactly the be$t people to fill our government office$: good, fair-minded republicans and democrats who will selflessly promote the common good!...we don't need no stinking unions!...

    #theonlypeoplewhoexperiencea'freemarket'arebankste r$

  25. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    (And by then, in this particular case, California may have banned the new truck, too).
    There, in one sentence, is the explanation as to why there is so little new capital development in the US.

    Why would you go out on a limb and invest billions in new plants or equipment, when a single signature on an official government fatwa could ruin you?

  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    There, in one sentence, is the explanation as to why there is so little new capital development in the US.

    Why would you go out on a limb and invest billions in new plants or equipment, when a single signature on an official government fatwa could ruin you?
    'Zactly- people can take care of themselves- it's all the $#@! regulations that prevents any kind of entrepreneurship or self sustaining ventures.
    There is no spoon.

  27. #56

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    Great, nuanced discussion with valid points. One reason this forum rocks..
    "I have a strong temperamental attachment to the meaning of words. In the age I find myself in, that condemns me to a daily dose of pain." - John Derbyshire
    "Give me control of the scientists' money supply and I care not who fakes the results."
    "I can find millions of 'social problems' such as: 'Too many red-headed people have hangnails'." - Murray Rothbard

  28. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by merkelstan View Post
    Great, nuanced discussion with valid points. One reason this forum rocks..
    Well, sometimes we fire on all eight cylinders.

  29. #58

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    Boeing To Test Self-Flying Planes

    http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...flying-planes/

    June 20, 2017 7:34 AM

    PHILADELPHIA (CBS) — It seems self-driving cars are all but a reality and now the world’s biggest aircraft manufacturer is working on the next step.

    Boeing is working on self-piloting planes.

    The company says increasing demand for flights, and a shortage of pilots, are the main reasons for their research.

    They say planes can already take-off, cruise, and land without pilots and they plan to start simulations this summer.

    Tests on a real plane could some as soon as next year.

  30. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Because in many cases it is industry wide. In danke's case, if his current airline is doing something unsafe, or something's peeving him off, he quits and goes elsewhere, more than likely it will be happening at his new employer as well.

    Do that enough and you'll get blackballed and won't work anywhere.

    So get another job you say.

    Well that's all well and good if you have unskilled labor to offer.

    People like Danke, people like me, we have spent our entire lives building a skill set that is precisely honed to accomplish one single complex task.

    We have invested years in training, practice, education and on the job skill building to do that job over and over again, safely and efficiently.

    It's sunk capital, just the same as your storefront building is. And just imagine how rightly pissed off you would be if the government, backed by powerful business interests, came along and changed the zoning on your property, effectively putting you out business and stealing a large chunk of your capital investment.

    You'd engage any sort of help you could find to protect your investment.

    Many people, Danke obviously and me, to a somewhat lesser extent, view unions as that tool to protect a lifetime investment.

    All that said, it will not stop the march of technology that will shortly render all of us, truckers, pilots and sailors, obsolete, regardless of danke acknowledging that fact or not.

    Hell, we're already most of the way there.

    It doesn't take one tenth the skill and brawn and brains it did 50 years ago to fly a plane, conn a ship, or drive a truck today.
    This is the core issue. Government regulation almost by definition gives ell capitalized larger businesses an advantage over smaller competitors.

    By not allowing "older and therefore unsafe" trucks to be used, only those with the capital to acquire the now required equipment can participate in the market. It works like the income tax, which is designed to prevent the accumulation of wealth.

    It is no conspiracy of international bankers or some such. It is just those with sufficient ability to get government to inflict damage on a competitor, where then be a business for market share or an individual to build wealth that is the cause of the destruction of working America.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  31. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    "Lifetime" is an unknown variable.I'm saying within 20 years, most all modes of transportation in the developed world, trucks, trains, cars, planes and ships, will be either autonomous (operating by themselves without direct oversight) or remotely operated (semi-autonomous, mostly operating by themselves, but still requiring human oversight, done remotely).ETA - With this caveat: all of that will get put on hold if the machines $#@! up in some way resulting in a spectacular and disastrous crash of some kind.That will spook the public and push back the mad rush forward.
    AF training for his new position:
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    You do know that you [dannno] are a moron right?
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I love Che because...
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    ...he did that which I was too cowardly afraid to do
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Just for the record, 99% of the time I say "In my country........" I am actually messing with you people because I know you guys have absolutely no idea what happens in my country.

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

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