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Thread: Are People Really Too Stupid To Take Care Of Themselves?

  1. #1

    Default Are People Really Too Stupid To Take Care Of Themselves?

    https://www.usatoday.com/pages/inter...-with-nothing/

    ^^ - story of truck drivers in California who are pretty much indentured servants, thanks to California's greenie weenies.

    Short version of the story: California passed a law that made almost all older semi trucks illegal. So the owner-operators, who had made a good living for years hauling containers from ports to warehouses suddenly couldn't use their own equipment.

    Their employers, the trucking companies, stepped in. They offered to finance shiny new trucks on behalf of the drivers who didn't earn enough to get financing. Surprise - it's a shoddy rent-to-own scheme that about 40% of the drivers lose out on. When said drivers can't make a payment, they lose the truck and all the equity they'd paid into it.

    There's other stuff to, like companies forcing them to work longer-than-legal hours and keep fake logs, classifying them as contractors rather than employees, etc, but it's all part and parcel to the original question.

    I understand getting duped into a bad contract. But here's an example from the article:

    Deductions from pay from QTS, INC., on Feb. 17, 2012

    Initial amount $854.13
    Insurance <$90>
    Lease <$250>
    Tires <$35>
    Registration <$65>
    Gas <$405.46>
    Remaining amount $0.67


    Why on God's green Earth would anyone keep working 60+ hours a week to bring home .67 when you could do better mowing lawns or washing dishes?

    The reason I ask is that one of the foundations of Libertarian philosophy is that we don't need labor laws and minimum wages because people won't bother to work if they're not making money. And yet...here's this guy.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]



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  3. #2

    Default

    We know the answer is less government, but until that happens, why are you so against unions?
    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal. -AF

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  4. #3

    Default

    Short answer, yes.

    Now, based on the expense report you posted, I'm guessing that many of those deductions are one time only.

    The reason I ask is that one of the foundations of Libertarian philosophy is that we don't need labor laws and minimum wages because people won't bother to work if they're not making money. And yet...here's this guy.
    And this is how you get unions.

    These port truckers -- many of them poor immigrants who speak little English -- are responsible for moving almost half of the nation’s container imports out of Los Angeles’ ports. They don't deliver goods to stores. Instead they drive them short distances to warehouses and rail yards, one small step on their journey to a store near you.
    And this is why large corporations love illegal immigration.

    Hell, most idiot AmeriKunts can't balance a checkbook (what's that?) or do simple finances to figure out when they are getting the shaft.

    7 year car loans?

    15% credit card interest?

    What the $#@!...

    In October 2008, that changed dramatically in southern California, home of the nation’s busiest ports, Los Angeles and Long Beach. State officials, fed up with deadly diesel fumes from 16,000 outdated trucks, ordered the entire fleet replaced with new, cleaner rigs.

    Suddenly, this obscure but critical collection of trucking companies faced a $2.5 billion crossroads unlike anything experienced at other U.S. ports.

    Instead of digging into their own pockets to undo the environmental mess they helped create, the companies found a way to push the cost onto individual drivers, who are paid by the number and kinds of containers they move, not by the hour.
    Deadly...LOL.

    Well, I wonder WTF these idiots thought was going to happen.

    And who pays the price anyways, all of us.

  5. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    https://www.usatoday.com/pages/inter...-with-nothing/

    ^^ - story of truck drivers in California who are pretty much indentured servants, thanks to California's greenie weenies.

    Short version of the story: California passed a law that made almost all older semi trucks illegal. So the owner-operators, who had made a good living for years hauling containers from ports to warehouses suddenly couldn't use their own equipment.

    Their employers, the trucking companies, stepped in. They offered to finance shiny new trucks on behalf of the drivers who didn't earn enough to get financing. Surprise - it's a shoddy rent-to-own scheme that about 40% of the drivers lose out on. When said drivers can't make a payment, they lose the truck and all the equity they'd paid into it.

    There's other stuff to, like companies forcing them to work longer-than-legal hours and keep fake logs, classifying them as contractors rather than employees, etc, but it's all part and parcel to the original question.

    I understand getting duped into a bad contract. But here's an example from the article:

    Deductions from pay from QTS, INC., on Feb. 17, 2012

    Initial amount $854.13
    Insurance <$90>
    Lease <$250>
    Tires <$35>
    Registration <$65>
    Gas <$405.46>
    Remaining amount $0.67


    Why on God's green Earth would anyone keep working 60+ hours a week to bring home .67 when you could do better mowing lawns or washing dishes?

    The reason I ask is that one of the foundations of Libertarian philosophy is that we don't need labor laws and minimum wages because people won't bother to work if they're not making money. And yet...here's this guy.
    Some people are stupid, the only thing that will teach them not to be is HARD KNOCKS, when big brother steps in and "protects" them, they stay stupid forever, which is just how the governors want them.

    If the stupid fail too horribly then helping them is the job of private charity.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We know the answer is less government, but until that happens, why are you so against unions?
    I was just saying the same thing.

    As long as there is no government collusion either with labor or management, I have no issues with unions at all.

    Free assembly.

    In a perfect world the Teamsters would be providing the legal counsel and representation to make make sure their members were not signing a contract that would shaft them.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-18-2017 at 01:22 PM.

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We know the answer is less government, but until that happens, why are you so against unions?
    Unions are a complicated issue, there is nothing wrong with the basic idea, but when they "Siamese twin" themselves to communism and the demoncrats and then conspire with big brother to force everyone to join then they become an enemy of freedom.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  8. #7

    Default

    Moot point anyways...won't be any truckers in another 20 years or so.

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I was just saying the same thing.

    As long as there is no government collusion either with labor or management, I have no issues with unions at all.

    Free assembly.

    In a perfect world the Teamsters would be providing the legal counsel and representation to make make sure their members were not signing a contract that would shaft them.
    In my industry, unions sprang up because of safety ( mail carrier pilots dying left and right). And have been at the forefront ever since to make air travel as safe as it is today. We can't bury mistakes. Every work rule and accident reduction equipment did not come from the bean counters in management. It was fought for, and a lot of worker's lives were ruined in the process.
    Last edited by Danke; 06-18-2017 at 01:31 PM.
    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal. -AF

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Unions are a complicated issue, there is nothing wrong with the basic idea, but when they "Siamese twin" themselves to communism and the demoncrats and then conspire with big brother to force everyone to join then they become an enemy of freedom.
    Ya, my union doesn't even call itself a "union", but an "Association."

    most of us hate what you are getting at, but realize with our current setup, we need to organize.
    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal. -AF

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    In my industry, unions sprang up because of safety ( mail carrier pilots dying left and right). And have been at the forefront ever since to make air travel as safe as it is today. We can't bury mistakes. Every work rule and accident reduction equipment did not come from the bean counters in management. It was fought for, and a lot of worker's lives were ruined in the process.
    See, in the maritime world, it has been, not opposite, but different.

    Unions were more for wage and benefit negotiations than safety.

    Seafaring has always been dangerous and it was just accepted.

    The bean counters and lawyers saw what was happening in the aviation field and applied that safety culture here, in order to drive down costs and "Morris Bart" lawsuits.

    Now they have gotten so ridiculous that it almost impossible to do the job.

    Also, mostly moot points...we are as dead as dodos as the truckers are.

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Ya, my union doesn't even call itself a "union", but an "Association."

    most of us hate what you are getting at, but realize with our current setup, we need to organize.
    Bingo!!!

    I have been pushing for years for the formation of a maritime association of mariners, if only to push back against some of the flood of rules and edicts and fatwas.

  13. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    See, in the maritime world, it has been, not opposite, but different.

    Unions were more for wage and benefit negotiations than safety.

    Seafaring has always been dangerous and it was just accepted.

    The bean counters and lawyers saw what was happening in the aviation field and applied that safety culture here, in order to drive down costs and "Morris Bart" lawsuits.

    Now they have gotten so ridiculous that it almost impossible to do the job.

    Also, mostly moot points...we are as dead as dodos as the truckers are.

    "We" as in boats and trucks?
    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal. -AF

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Bingo!!!

    I have been pushing for years for the formation of a maritime association of mariners, if only to push back against some of the flood of rules and edicts and fatwas.
    There are few in my industry that I would "push against."

    But they do limit my salary. But I realize if we give an inch, management will take a mile. (As in, there could be some relaxation in some areas agreeable to me, but the group said no...slippery slop, etc.)
    But the fact of the matter is that there are often times in life even a curmudgeonly, misanthropic old grouch like myself has to "join the team" to accomplish a larger goal. -AF

    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of apportionment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We know the answer is less government, but until that happens, why are you so against unions?
    Because they only make the problem worse.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  16. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Ya, my union doesn't even call itself a "union", but an "Association."

    most of us hate what you are getting at, but realize with our current setup, we need to organize.
    Why don't you just find another job? Your employer isn't running a democracy.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  17. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Why don't you just find another job? Your employer isn't running a democracy.
    While I tend to be suspicious of unions (see my response to Danke above) That is a bit callous, especially in today's job market.
    And there is no reason that the basic idea of unions is inherently wrong, if an employer treats his workers fairly he should not have to worry about them.

    Let me guess, you are in management right?
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  18. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    "We" as in boats and trucks?
    You too...you're nuts if you think it's not gonna happen.

  19. #18

    Default

    TV and beer money is all they require until one day your heart pops...

    It's a great formula

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    There are few in my industry that I would "push against."
    There are plenty I would push back against, especially safety rules that end up making you less safe, and I could list at least 50 right off the top of my head.

  21. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Why don't you just find another job? Your employer isn't running a democracy.
    Because in many cases it is industry wide. In danke's case, if his current airline is doing something unsafe, or something's peeving him off, he quits and goes elsewhere, more than likely it will be happening at his new employer as well.

    Do that enough and you'll get blackballed and won't work anywhere.

    So get another job you say.

    Well that's all well and good if you have unskilled labor to offer.

    People like Danke, people like me, we have spent our entire lives building a skill set that is precisely honed to accomplish one single complex task.

    We have invested years in training, practice, education and on the job skill building to do that job over and over again, safely and efficiently.

    It's sunk capital, just the same as your storefront building is. And just imagine how rightly pissed off you would be if the government, backed by powerful business interests, came along and changed the zoning on your property, effectively putting you out business and stealing a large chunk of your capital investment.

    You'd engage any sort of help you could find to protect your investment.

    Many people, Danke obviously and me, to a somewhat lesser extent, view unions as that tool to protect a lifetime investment.

    All that said, it will not stop the march of technology that will shortly render all of us, truckers, pilots and sailors, obsolete, regardless of danke acknowledging that fact or not.

    Hell, we're already most of the way there.

    It doesn't take one tenth the skill and brawn and brains it did 50 years ago to fly a plane, conn a ship, or drive a truck today.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-18-2017 at 06:21 PM.

  22. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    While I tend to be suspicious of unions (see my response to Danke above) That is a bit callous, especially in today's job market.
    And there is no reason that the basic idea of unions is inherently wrong, if an employer treats his workers fairly he should not have to worry about them.
    Fairly is a subjective term. If the employee feels his compensation is inadequate he should seek employment elsewhere. Labor is simply a commodity - nothing more.

    Unions are nothing more than a mechanism of force, using government to force higher-than-market wages.

    Let me guess, you are in management right?
    No. Cost accounting is my most accomplished skill set. I actually went to (and still go to) great lengths to stay out of management.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  23. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Because in many cases it is industry wide. In danke's case, if his current airline is doing something unsafe, or something's peeving him off, he quits and goes elsewhere, more than likely it will be happening at his new employer as well.

    Do that enough and you'll get blackballed and won't work anywhere.

    So get another job you say.

    Well that's all well and good if you have unskilled labor to offer.

    People like Danke, people like me, we have spent our entire lives building a skill set that is precisely honed to accomplish one single complex task.

    We have invested years in training, practice, education and on the job skill building to do that job over and over again, safely and efficiently.

    It's sunk capital, just the same as your storefront building is. And just imagine how rightly pissed off you would be if the government, backed by powerful business interests, came along and changed the zoning on your property, effectively putting you out business and stealing a large chunk of your capital investment.
    The difference here is that the airline is not his capital. He's a commodity.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  24. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If the employee feels his compensation is inadequate he should seek employment elsewhere.
    Or he can negotiate with his employer, possibly in a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Unions are nothing more than a mechanism of force, using government to force higher-than-market wages.
    They can be abused this way, but it is not inherent in the concept.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  25. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Moot point anyways...won't be any truckers in another 20 years or so.
    Driverless freight.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/03/bu...ker/index.html
    - SUPPORT FREE TRADE, SMUGGLE -

    2 + 2 = 5.

  26. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Or he can negotiate with his employer, possibly in a group.


    They can be abused this way, but it is not inherent in the concept.
    Name a union that isn't a political arm. Like socialism, it's a great theory but ignores basic human nature.

    But what I'm hearing is that the liberals are right - people really are too stupid to care for themselves, so we need unions, laws and government to make sure people are "treated fairly."

    I was afraid of that.
    Last edited by angelatc; 06-18-2017 at 06:34 PM.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  27. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    He's a commodity.
    No he is one party to a contract, his labor is a commodity, he is not.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  28. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The difference here is that the airline is not his capital. He's a commodity.
    Right...his skill is his capital.

    His physical body to apply that skill is the "commodity".

    And people dealing with commodities routinely band together either as sellers or buyers, to buy or sell in bulk and negotiate the best contract terms.

    Barring government interference, that is how I view a labor union or in this case, a trade association.

  29. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Socialism always fails.
    Co-operation is not socialism until it is backed by aggressive force.
    “Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler"

    Groucho Marx

  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Co-operation is not socialism until it is backed by aggressive force.
    Which is what a union is.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  31. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post

    And people dealing with commodities routinely band together either as sellers or buyers, to buy or sell in bulk and negotiate the best contract terms.
    Usually, suppliers banding together to control the price of a commodity is illegal.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

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