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Thread: Prayer Is Meaningless With The Wrong Religion

  1. #1

    Prayer Is Meaningless With The Wrong Religion

    Why do universal atonement, free will advocates pray for others?

    In your view, Jesus has died for every man, and God has given the exact amount of grace to every person. God equally wants every person to be saved.

    So why do you pray for them to be saved? What more can God do? Apparently, He has already done everything He can do. He can't violate their wills, right? That would be wrong of God to do, right? So why pray for people?

    Prayer doesn't make sense in the universal atonement, free will religion.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Why do universal atonement, free will advocates pray for others?

    In your view, Jesus has died for every man, and God has given the exact amount of grace to every person. God equally wants every person to be saved.

    So why do you pray for them to be saved? What more can God do? Apparently, He has already done everything He can do. He can't violate their wills, right? That would be wrong of God to do, right? So why pray for people?

    Prayer doesn't make sense in the universal atonement, free will religion.
    Prayer is an exercise in humility.

    It is me on my knees, head bowed, acknowledging there is a God and I'm not it.

    Praying for specific things to occur is pointless. No amount of prayer by any number of believers is going to change God's will. If someone is ill and God is calling them home, what's He going to do, change His mind?

    Instead, one should pray for acceptance of God's will whatever that may be.

    Humility is a good thing. One should practice it often.
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 06-18-2017 at 01:21 PM.

  4. #3
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  5. #4
    LMAO!!!!

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Danke again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Prayer is an exercise in humility.

    It is me on my knees, head bowed, acknowledging there is a God and I'm not it.

    Praying for specific things to occur is pointless. No amount of prayer by any number of believers is going to change God's will. If someone is ill and God is calling them home, what's He going to do, change His mind?

    Instead, one should pray for acceptance of God's will whatever that may be.

    Humility is a good thing. One should practice it often.
    Wow. Surprisingly I agree with this post. +rep

    The only thing I'd disagree with is the "there is a God" part. Jesus is the only God that exists.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Wow. Surprisingly I agree with this post. +rep

    The only thing I'd disagree with is the "there is a God" part. Jesus is the only God that exists.

    Wow, you don't believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


    Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    John 10:30 (KJV)
    I and [my] Father are one.

    1 John 5:7 - 5:8 (KJV)
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]: and these three are one.
    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  8. #7
    Prayer is not meaningless if you have humility.
    The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

    Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Prayer is not meaningless if you have humility.
    It is if you believe God has already done everything He can to save a person. What more can He do?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Wow, you don't believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?


    Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    John 10:30 (KJV)
    I and [my] Father are one.

    1 John 5:7 - 5:8 (KJV)
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]: and these three are one.
    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus is the only God. There are not 3 gods. Do you believe there are 3 gods?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    It is if you believe God has already done everything He can to save a person. What more can He do?
    My understanding of your belief is if God hasn't saved a person it's because he created that person from the dawn of time for the purpose of being human coal for hell. But Jesus said he would happily gather sinners under his wings but they were not willing. I do not believe God has done all he can to save the unsaved, they could be saved tomorrow. I do not have a list of who is saved and who is not, that's God's business.


    You have no reason to pray or do anything though, if you believe God created you to go to heaven, all you're really supposed to do is mock the hell-bound who have no chance in hell of getting saved because they were created to be human coal.
    Last edited by William Tell; 06-18-2017 at 04:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus is the only God. There are not 3 gods. Do you believe there are 3 gods?

    Do you not know how to read? Seriously, stop with all the labels. I believe in the Godhead--The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

    Christianity is not a religion, it is a reality!
    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus is the only God. There are not 3 gods. Do you believe there are 3 gods?
    More specifically, that Jesus is fully God and fully Man (theanthropos), and the second of the 3 hypostases.(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) You are absolutely correct to point out there are not 3 gods. That's a long-condemned heresy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Why do universal atonement, free will advocates pray for others?

    In your view, Jesus has died for every man, and God has given the exact amount of grace to every person. God equally wants every person to be saved.

    So why do you pray for them to be saved? What more can God do? Apparently, He has already done everything He can do. He can't violate their wills, right? That would be wrong of God to do, right? So why pray for people?

    Prayer doesn't make sense in the universal atonement, free will religion.
    But back to your question-the reason Christians pray for others is because the Gospels command it. Matthew 5:44-45 is just one of many examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    More specifically, that Jesus is fully God and fully Man (theanthropos), and the second of the 3 hypostases.(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) You are absolutely correct to point out there are not 3 gods. That's a long-condemned heresy.
    Yes, but Sola, as usual, twisted the scripture posted and then labeled it. No one said there were three gods but Sola.
    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  17. #15
    Which religion should I be praying for you in?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #16
    I don't see how the discussion addresses the question about whether one is praying to the creator using the wrong religion...

    (Ninja'd by Suzanimal!)
    "Never say, 'Well at least it can't get any worse!'" - Bill Cosby "But also never say, 'It's no use, it can't get any better.'" - merkelstan



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Yes, but Sola, as usual, twisted the scripture posted and then labeled it. No one said there were three gods but Sola.
    I said Jesus is the only God. You disagreed with that. That's why I asked you the question. If you disagree that there is only one God, and Jesus is the only God, what am I to assume?

    There is only one God and Jesus is the only God. God is one being and three persons. The three persons share the one being of God.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Prayer is an exercise in humility.

    It is me on my knees, head bowed, acknowledging there is a God and I'm not it.

    Praying for specific things to occur is pointless. No amount of prayer by any number of believers is going to change God's will. If someone is ill and God is calling them home, what's He going to do, change His mind?

    Instead, one should pray for acceptance of God's will whatever that may be.

    Humility is a good thing. One should practice it often.
    I agree with this post. +rep

    Additionally, God says in Bhagavad Gita 9.23: "Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way." So even if we worship God in a wrong way, I believe that He understands our intention is to worship Him, as there is only one God that exists, and so He accepts the worship.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Which religion should I be praying for you in?
    Biblical Christianity. Because only Biblical Christianity recognizes the absolute sovereignty of God, so it isn't meaningless to pray for the reasons I cited in the OP.

    If God loves everyone equally and gives the the exact amount of grace, and wants them all equally to be saved, why pray for them? What more can God do? He's already done everything He can.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    I agree with this post. +rep

    Additionally, God says in Bhagavad Gita 9.23: "Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way." So even if we worship God in a wrong way, I believe that He understands our intention is to worship Him, as there is only one God that exists, and so He accepts the worship.
    That's why I added my criticism of his post. It's not enough to say there is 'a god'. You must pray to THE God, the only God, Jesus Christ, and in His name, and not to an idol. You pray to an idol, with all due respect.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 06-18-2017 at 05:42 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by merkelstan View Post
    I don't see how the discussion addresses the question about whether one is praying to the creator using the wrong religion...

    (Ninja'd by Suzanimal!)
    It's explained in the first post.

  25. #22
    In regards to your last sentence, that is your opinion. I agree that there is only one God, and I believe that we worship the same God. I am aware that your opinion is different than that.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Why do universal atonement, free will advocates pray for others?

    In your view, Jesus has died for every man, and God has given the exact amount of grace to every person. God equally wants every person to be saved.

    So why do you pray for them to be saved? What more can God do? Apparently, He has already done everything He can do. He can't violate their wills, right? That would be wrong of God to do, right? So why pray for people?

    Prayer doesn't make sense in the universal atonement, free will religion.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It's banworthy to look at the Bible, try to define what it means, and then critique a view that you don't think aligns with it? Why would that be worthy of a ban? I respect everyone here and agree with most everyone on many things about life, politics, economics, etc. There's no room for disagreement? Why?

    No one has to listen to what I say or believe what I believe. I am a voluntarist. I believe everyone has the ability to live how they want to live and never listen to me at all.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    In regards to your last sentence, that is your opinion. I agree that there is only one God, and I believe that we worship the same God. I am aware that your opinion is different than that.
    Ok. I say it in love because if I was worshipping an idol, I would want someone to tell me. Maybe not at first, but later on down the line, I would view it as a great act of love. When I was a teenager and an atheist, I would have never become a Christian if the Lord hadn't put someone in my life that tore my worldview to shreds.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    It's banworthy to look at the Bible, try to define what it means, and then critique a view that you don't think aligns with it? Why would that be worthy of a ban? I respect everyone here and agree with most everyone on many things about life, politics, economics, etc.
    LOL.
    You walk into the room and spray urine on everyone and everything you disagree with. No different than Ronin Truth.
    Your "teaching" method is derision. And if you have "respect" for anyone here, I haven't seen it.
    Why do you think you've been banned before? Was it because you were persecuted for your beliefs? Do the pots made for destruction not understand you?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Ok. I say it in love because if I was worshipping an idol, I would want someone to tell me. Maybe not at first, but later on down the line, I would view it as a great act of love. When I was a teenager and an atheist, I would have never become a Christian if the Lord hadn't put someone in my life that tore my worldview to shreds.
    It may well be your opinion that you believe what you do about my faith, but that doesn't make it true. Especially considering that you say the same or similar to most other Christians.

  32. #28
    I believe differently. One of the gratest beliefs I have is that you rejoice in bringing disharmony to a "Peace through Religion" forum.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    LOL.
    You walk into the room and spray urine on everyone and everything you disagree with. No different than Ronin Truth.
    Your "teaching" method is derision. And if you have "respect" for anyone here, I haven't seen it.
    Why do you think you've been banned before? Was it because you were persecuted for your beliefs? Do the pots made for destruction not understand you?
    I don't view internet banning as persecution. If anything, I was able to get more things done haha. But in a sense, I know why I was banned by certain moderators in the past. Christianity, true Biblical Christianity, is something that natural men hate. They hate it at their core because they know in their heart of hearts that God's judgment is real, and they suppress this truth with all they can.

    Biblical Christianity strikes at the heart of religious man as well, because it proclaims that God alone saves, which offends his autonomy. Religious man suppresses the truth of God even more viciously than atheists do.

    I've said for years, and no one has listened to me, that there is a reason that the atheists and all the 'religious' people here are in league against me when I talk about the Biblical view of salvation. Many times, the atheists and the religious people have the EXACT same objections.

    These objections are the same ones Paul refutes in Romans chapter 9.

  34. #30
    Also, Ronin Truth would post something, and then intentionally not ever engage anyone who questioned him. How disrespectful. I take time to carefully attempt to answer everyone, from every viewpoint, who questions something I post. It's not the same at all.

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