Why Do People Believe This Lie?

[Sola_Fide]

You are embarrassing yourself. God now has two opposing wills that duke it out? Take your Gnosticism and go home.

No. God's decree and God's prescriptive will are never opposed. Because God has a good reason for the evil that He decrees, such as the crucifixion of Jesus, which was predestined from eternity, as the verse I posted showed.

Gnosticism, or the dualism that you refer to in your post, is a feature of all religions that deny the sovereignty of God. In these religions there is a dualism between a limited God who is not sovereign, and the will of evil which is able to frustrate God's will.

That is true dualism, and you are the one guilty of that. Christianity is not dualistic. There is one sovereign will only... God's will.

[lilymc]

Right on, lily. Thanks for saying that.

I had to. Hopefully peace will return to this forum soon… Or at least some fresh, interesting discussions, instead of the same old Calvinism debates that we've had here about 1 billion times. And yw.

Because forcing some people to do evil things, and not allowing them to choose to change, then damning them to hell is more benevolent then wanting all men to be saved?

Exactly. His god is a rapist who forces himself on people then damns them to hell for the very thing that he forced on them. The whole thing is so completely asinine, unbiblical, evil and ridiculous… that I'm truly amazed that anyone actually believes in Calvinism.

[Sola_Fide]

Because forcing some people to do evil things, and not allowing them to choose to change, then damning them to hell is more benevolent then wanting all men to be saved?



Thank God you're not like that sinner!


Why the hell would you waste your time telling people to go read $#@! that cannot possibly change their preordained hearts?!

No. Arminianism says that their god declared every person not guilty, but their god is going to declare people guilty again after he declared them not guilty. That god is not just.

[Sola_Fide]

I had to. Hopefully peace will return to this forum soon… Or at least some fresh, interesting discussions, instead of the same old Calvinism debates that we've had here about 1 billion times. And yw.



Exactly. His god is a rapist who forces himself on people then damns them to hell for the very thing that he forced on them. The whole thing is so completely asinine, unbiblical, evil and ridiculous… that I'm truly amazed that anyone actually believes in Calvinism.

The sad thing about your repeated statements like these is that it's just your own deluded feelings. There is no interaction with the text of the Bible and no critical thinking. But it's very common for blind faith religionists to never engage the real text of the Bible. All false religions are notorious for this.

[Natural Citizen]

But it's very common for blind faith religionists to never engage the real text of the Bible.

Proof-texting is not engaging the real text of the Bible. It's bastardizing it. You're the only proof-texter here. You're the blind one. Pretty much everyone else here engages in the tenor as well as the texts. You're the only one who doesn't.

[Sola_Fide]

No. I've never been an atheist. Go read what I said to read. And don't come back to me until you do. If I'm so stupid, then I should be a real pushover for you.

With all due respect, I don't think you'd understand the point anyway. I post a verse, and instead of exegeting it, you run away from the text and talk about 'tenor' or some other horse manure. It's not fun to engage with someone who is not yet educated about these historical discussions. Where is TER? Where is Superfluous Man?

[Natural Citizen]

With all due respect, I don't think you'd understand the point anyway.

Your point was found to be lacking. And by the mouth of Jesus Chris, himself. You have no point. Nor will you. You're a weak, blind, misguided, dishonest, little man.

And I don't know why I pray for you. I really don't.

[Sola_Fide]

Proof-texting is not engaging the real text of the Bible. It's bastardizing it. You're the only proof-texter here. You're the blind one. Pretty much everyone else here engages in the tenor as well as the texts. You're the only one who doesn't.

Mormons say the tenor of the Bible is that man must progress to be a god one day and have sex with his multiple spirit wives populating his own planet.

Are they right about the 'tenor'? How do you prove the 'tenor' of something if you don't understand the particulars of the thing?

The tenor thing that you keep talking about is insulting to your own intelligence. That you can't engage with the text of the Bible shows that you really don't believe what's in it, like the Mormons

[Natural Citizen]

Also, you're a dick for running over baby bunnies on purpose when you cut your grass.

[Natural Citizen]

Mormons say the tenor of the Bible is that man must progress to be a god one day and have sex with his multiple spirit wives populating his own planet.

Are they right about the 'tenor'? How do you prove the 'tenor' of something if you don't understand the particulars of the thing?

The tenor thing that you keep talking about is insulting to your own intelligence. That you can't engage with the text of the Bible shows that you really don't believe what's in it, like the Mormons

stfu.

I'm gonna go watch a movie. I'm tired of messing with you for the night.

[William Tell]

You are embarrassing yourself. God now has two opposing wills that duke it out? Take your Gnosticism and go home.

His attempt to explain away scriptures that show God does not think how he does is far more absurd than the Trump supporters explanation for his statism being good.

[Sola_Fide]

Your point was found to be lacking. And by the mouth of Jesus Chris, himself. You have no point. Nor will you. You're a weak, blind, misguided, dishonest, little man.

And I don't know why I pray for you. I really don't.

Why do you pray for me? In your view, God has already done everything He can do to try to save every person. But He can't do it, without their will. So why do you pray for people?

[lilymc]

Why do you pray for me? In your view, God has already done everything He can do to try to save every person. But He can't do it, without their will. So why do you pray for people?

As usual, you completely butcher people's positions and knock down a strawman.

It is your worldview that makes prayer meaningless... As others have pointed out to you, many times.

Anyway, I'm done here too. Going to watch a movie.

[Sola_Fide]

His attempt to explain away scriptures that show God does not think how he does is far more absurd than the Trump supporters explanation for his statism being good.

Listen, I'm trying to be polite as I can. We don't believe in the same gods. You don't believe in this God:

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,even the wicked for the day of evil.

You don't believe in that God, right?

[Sola_Fide]

As usual, you completely butcher people's positions and knock down a strawman.

It is your worldview that makes prayer meaningless... As others have pointed out to you, many times.

Anyway, I'm done here too. Going to watch a movie.

Again... There's no answers or explanations that come from you, just more vileness. It's sad to see, because prayer for other people makes absolutely no sense in the religion of Arminianism.

In Christianity, prayer doesn't change God, it changes the person praying. That's the power of it.

[lilymc]

Again... There's no answers or explanations that come from you, just more vileness. It's sad to see, because prayer for other people makes absolutely no sense in the religion of Arminianism.

In Christianity, prayer doesn't change God, it changes the person praying. That's the power of it.

My religion is not Arminianism. And if telling the truth is vile to you then maybe you should examine your actions on his board because people are simply pointing out what you've been doing. You're the only one who doesn't seem to see it. Either that or you're a troll and you know exactly what you're doing… I'm not sure which.

[lilymc]

And now I really have to go, so if you reply I'm not going to reply for a few hours.

[TER]

Listen, I'm trying to be polite as I can. We don't believe in the same gods. You don't believe in this God:

Proverbs 16:4

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,even the wicked for the day of evil.

You don't believe in that God, right?

I see you are still using the Masoretic text as your 'infallible word of God' and not the actual Scriptures which Christ and the Apostles used, namely the Septuagint which is the standard translation for the Hebrew Scriptures for the Christian Church and has been since the first century.

You see, had you used the actual Word of God, and not some distorted version compiled by the descendants of the Sanhedrin centuries after they put Christ to death on the cross, you would learn that the actual verses of the Proverbs ( as found in the Septuagint) reads:

Proverbs 16:1-10

All the works of the humble man are manifest with God; but the ungodly shall perish in an evil day. Every one that is proud in heart is unclean before God, and he that unjustly strikes hands with hand shall not be held guiltless. The beginning of a good way is to do justly; and it is more acceptable with God than to offer sacrifices. He that seeks the Lord shall find knowledge with righteousness: and they that rightly seek him shall find peace. All of the works of the Lord are done with righteousness; and the ungodly man is kept for the evil day.

Sola, if you are going to try to use the Scriptures to make your point, please at least use the actual Scriptures used by Christ. I think you are being duped by a mistranslation again.

[Sola_Fide]

I see you are still using the Masoretic text as your 'infallible word of God' and not the actual Scriptures which Christ and the Apostles used, namely the Septuagint which is the standard translation for the Hebrew Scriptures for the Christian Church and has been since the first century.

You see, had you used the actual Word of God, and not some distorted version compiled by the descendants of the Sanhedrin centuries after they put Christ to death on the cross, you would learn that the actual verses of the Proverbs ( as found in the Septuagint) reads:



Sola, if you are going to try to use the Scriptures to make your point, please at least use the actual Scriptures used by Christ. I think you are being duped by a mistranslation again.

There you go again... "actual word of God"...do you know what the Septuagint is TER? It is a Greek translation of the Hebrew text. It's the equivalent of what the NIV or any other modern text in English is to the original Greek texts of the New Testament.

It's great that Greek speaking Jews translated the Hebrew words into Greek, but the question you should be asking is: what do the Hebrew words say (or mean)?

Is the NIV the ACTUAL WORD OF GOD? No. It is an English translation of Hebrew and Greek texts. So your assertion that the Septuagint is the ACTUAL WORD OF god is ridiculous. It's on the level of a KJV onlyist saying the KJV is the actual word of God. It's ridiculous.

[TER]

There you go again... "actual word of God"...do you know what the Septuagint is TER? It is a Greek translation of the Hebrew text. It's the equivalent of what the NIV or any other modern text in English is to the original Greek texts of the New Testament.

It's great that early Greek speaking Christians translated the Hebrew words into Greek, but the question you should be asking is: what do the Hebrew words say (or mean)?

Is the NIV the ACTUAL WORD OF GOD? No. It is an English translation of Hebrew and Greek texts. So your assertion that the Septuagint is the ACTUAL WORD OF god is ridiculous. It's on the level of a KJV onlyist saying the KJV is the actual word of God. It's ridiculous.

Wrong Sola. You are making a fallacy.

Of course it is a translation of the Hebrew text which came earlier, but it is an official translation which was considered inspired and accurate by the Jews everywhere way before Christ appeared, and more importantly, it is the version used by Christ and the Apostles as evidenced by the New Testament writings and the Christians of the first centuries. So trying to say that it is like the difference between the NIV and KJV is simply a cop out or an ignorant statement. If Christ used the NIV, then every serious English-speaking Christian would use that version.

The fact remains that in the past week alone, there have been at least 2 instances where you quoted the Masoretic text which gave a compete different teaching about the nature of God and His character than what the actual, inspired Word of God says which Christ used. Sorry, but instead of trying to weasel out, you should humble yourself, correct yourself, and learn the truth. Otherwise, you will continue in your error, mischaracterize God, and speak against the actual Bible.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Ah Sola, Sola... Why do you tempt our Creator?? Your understanding is badly twisted by what you want to believe. You want to believe that "you" are one of God's "chosen" and others are not so fortunate. Well, if you were right (you're not) then why would you bother posting all this nonsense?? You just want to rub it in that you are special and we are not?? To what end?? In fact, what's the purpose of telling anyone at all about Jesus if only the "predestined" will be saved? If they are predestined then no one needs to tell them about Jesus for the rocks themselves would scream out and bring the chosen to Christ...

Why don't you just revel in your "predestination" at home and to yourself. It's obvious that those chosen ones will be chosen no matter what you say. That way we (the condemned) can be merry in our ignorance until the day we are thrown into the lake of fire...

[Sola_Fide]

Wrong Sola. You are making a fallacy.

Of course it is a translation of the Hebrew text which came earlier, but it is an official translation which was considered inspired and accurate by the Jews everywhere way before Christ appeared, and more importantly, it is the version used by Christ and the Apostles as evidenced by the New Testament writings and the Christians of the first centuries. So trying to say that it is like the difference between the NIV and KJV is simply a cop out or an ignorant statement. If Christ used the NIV, then every serious English-speaking Christian would use that version.

The fact remains that in the past week alone, there have been at least 2 instances where you quoted the Masoretic text which gave a compete different teaching about the nature of God and His character than what the actual, inspired Word of God says which Christ used. Sorry, but instead of trying to weasel out, you should humble yourself, correct yourself, and learn the truth. Otherwise, you will continue in your error, mischaracterize God, and speak against the actual Bible.

TER, you said the Septuagint is the "actual word of God". Would you like to retract that statement?

The actual word of God are the original words in the original texts in the original languages. Textual criticism is called upon to determine the most accurate readings of the original words.

Your statement is simply wrong. And it most certainly is on the same level as saying any modern English translation of the Greek New Testament is the "actual word of God ". Is this something your church tells you?

[TER]

TER, you said the Septuagint is the "actual word of God". Would you like to retract that statement?

The actual word of God are the original words in the original texts in the original languages. Textual criticism is called upon to determine the most accurate readings of the original words.

Your statement is simply wrong. And it most certainly is on the same level as saying any modern English translation of the Greek New Testament is the "actual word of God ". Is this something your church tells you?

I'm glad you asked!

Here is a nice answer for the reasons why the Orthodox Church uses the Septuagint and also addresses your concern about translations:

GOD’S LANGUAGE

We have written about the differences between today’s Masoretic text of the Old Testament and the ancient Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Actually, since the Septuagint translation was finished about 290 years before Christ, and the contemporary Hebrew Masoretic text was only completed a millennium after Christ, the Septuagint version is almost 1,300 years older than the current Masoretic edition!

As we know, every translation from one language into another is, in reality, an interpretation. Every language has words whose full range of nuances and implications cannot possibly be translated accurately into another language.

This is especially true when we are talking about God’s language. What language does God speak? Well, it would be helpful for us to know, first of all, that God speaks in a very ancient language. This language is known by the name “Uncreated Divine Grace.” This language does not translate well into our Semitic or Indo-European languages, or, for that fact, into any man-made language. Many fine men and women have thrown up their hands in despair trying to translate God’s language (and yet, oddly, children sometimes have no problem at all understanding it). Furthermore, nobody can duplicate the sounds of God’s language; it seems to have no vowels or consonants that human beings can articulate.

Here are what some Saints of the Church had to say about conveying God’s language into ours.

In his work, The Hexaemeron, St. Basil the Great says the following:“It must be well understood that when we speak of the voice, of the word, of the command of God, this divine language does not mean to us a sound which escapes from the organs of speech, a collision of air struck by the tongue; it is a simple sign of the will of God, and, if we give it the form of an order, it is only the better to impress the souls whom we instruct.” (Hexaemeron II: 7)

St. Gregory of Nyssa, on his part, has this to say:

“…human speech finds it impossible to express the reality which transcends all thought and all concept; and he who obstinately tries to express it in words, unconsciously offends God.” (Commentary on Ecclesiastes, Homily 7)

And, again, he writes:

“Lifted out of himself by the Spirit, (the Prophet David) glimpsed in that blessed ecstasy God’s infinity and incomprehensible beauty. He saw as much as a mere mortal can see, leaving the covering of the flesh, and by thought alone entering into the divine vision of that immaterial and spiritual realm. And though yearning to say something which would do justice to his vision, he can only cry out (in words that all can echo after him): I said in mine ecstasy, every man is a liar (Psalm 115:2 ). And this I take to mean that anyone who attempts to portray that ineffable Light in language is truly a liar — not because of any abhorrence of the truth, but merely because of the infirmity of his explanation.” (From the Homily on Virginity)

What does all this have to do with the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts? Simply this: as feeble attempts to translate God’s language into our man-made languages, both versions fall short. Each one has its own strong points, and its weak points, but neither one can adequately convey the revelation of God’s ineffable grace into our earth-bound languages. As for the differences between the Greek and Hebrew texts — except for the fact that there was some open tampering with the Old Testament texts in the Masoretic— both versions, with certain qualifications, might often simply represent different textual traditions of the Hebrew Old Testament.

Having in mind what the Saints of the Church have said about the limitations of our human languages in dealing with divine revelation (see above), it is no surprise that Orthodox Christians do not get as bent out of shape, as Roman Catholic or Protestant textual critics seem to do, about textual differences and variations in the Holy Scriptures.

However, the reason why Orthodox Christians prefer the Septuagint is simply because it represents an ancient, authentic and unbiased text of the Old Testament, translated and embraced by the Jewish people themselves for almost 400 years and held by the Apostles and early Church to be the version whereby to teach from. Since we hold ourselves to be the New Israel, we feel pretty strongly about upholding this tradition of the God of our Fathers. Amen. So be it.

[TER]

Also, would add that the Masoretic text, as you have demonstrated by the verses you have posted recently, can mischaracterize God and lead to all sorts of erroneous doctrines on the nature of God, such as making Him to be "pleased to crush His Son", which no loving Father would.

[TER]

Btw, Sola, the actual Word of God is Jesus Christ, not a collection of papers with symbols and letters on them written by men. Although certainly inspired and sacred, and conveying revelations about the Word of God, the actual Logos (Word) of God, Who was from the beginning, and through Whom the Father created the cosmos, is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ.

[Sola_Fide]

Also, would add that the Masoretic text, as you have demonstrated by the verses you have posted recently, can mischaracterize God and lead to all sorts of erroneous doctrines on the nature of God, such as making Him to be "pleased to crush His Son", which no loving Father would.

'Pleased' there simply means 'it was His will'. It doesn't carry the kind of meaning that you are ascribing to it. It was Gods will to place the iniquities of the elect on the suffering servant. And by His stripes we are healed.

As for your claim that the Septuagint is THE word of God and the most accurate translation of the Hebrew....its literally nuts. It's an historically laughable assertion. I appreciate all translations of the Bible into all the languages of the world, but they are just that: translations of the original languages into another language. They are not the original words and therefore are not the words of God.

Secondly, to assume that ANY translation is the OFFICIAL version to use is also laughable. Christians have no official translations. You are entering nutball territory with a claim like that. It's no different than the Jehovah's Witnesses saying their version of the Bible is the official one. No, the careful Christian scholar calls upon all the tools he has to determine what the original texts said. The Septuagint is a fallible translation of Hebrew words into the Greek, given the manuscripts that they had at the time, given the fallibility they had in determining how the best way to convey Hebrew words into Greek words.

[Sola_Fide]

Btw, Sola, the actual Word of God is Jesus Christ, not a collection of papers with symbols and letters on them written by men. Although certainly inspired and sacred, and conveying revelations about the Word of God, the actual Logos (Word) of God, Who was from the beginning, and through Whom the Father created the cosmos, is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ.

Although that sounds good on the surface, what it really means is that you deny propositional revelation, which is why Eastern Orthodoxy is a religion of mysticism.

To deny that God conveys meaning to man in propositional form is to deny Christianity altogether.

[The Rebel Poet]

Ah Sola, Sola... Why do you tempt our Creator?? Your understanding is badly twisted by what you want to believe. You want to believe that "you" are one of God's "chosen" and others are not so fortunate. Well, if you were right (you're not) then why would you bother posting all this nonsense?? You just want to rub it in that you are special and we are not?? To what end?? In fact, what's the purpose of telling anyone at all about Jesus if only the "predestined" will be saved? If they are predestined then no one needs to tell them about Jesus for the rocks themselves would scream out and bring the chosen to Christ...

Why don't you just revel in your "predestination" at home and to yourself. It's obvious that those chosen ones will be chosen no matter what you say. That way we (the condemned) can be merry in our ignorance until the day we are thrown into the lake of fire...

[TER]

'Pleased' there simply means 'it was His will'. It doesn't carry the kind of meaning that you are ascribing to it. It was Gods will to place the iniquities of the elect on the suffering servant. And by His stripes we are healed.

As for your claim that the Septuagint is THE word of God and the most accurate translation of the Hebrew....its literally nuts. It's an historically laughable assertion. I appreciate all translations of the Bible into all the languages of the world, but they are just that: translations of the original languages into another language. They are not the original words and therefore are not the words of God.

Secondly, to assume that ANY translation is the OFFICIAL version to use is also laughable. Christians have no official translations. You are entering nutball territory with a claim like that. It's no different than the Jehovah's Witnesses saying their version of the Bible is the official one. No, the careful Christian scholar calls upon all the tools he has to determine what the original texts said. The Septuagint is a fallible translation of Hebrew words into the Greek, given the manuscripts that they had at the time, given the fallibility they had in determining how the best way to convey Hebrew words into Greek words.

In the Isaiah verse you are referring to, it is not the part that says that God was 'pleased' which is at odds with the earlier version, but that He was pleased to 'crush Him' which is in the Masoretic version you keep using. It has already been pointed out to you that the earlier Septuagint version reads 'He was pleased to cleanse Him from His stripes." It says nothing about God being pleased to crush the Lord.

When I say official, I mean the Septuagint was commissioned by royal decree and blessed by the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem. It didn't get more official than that.

The fact that the Evangelists use it almost exclusively and that Jesus quotes from it I guess means little to you. Oh well, to each their own. As far as the Christians Saints are concerned going back to the beginning, it is the best and most reliable translation of the original Hebrew texts we have, which is why the Orthodox Church uses is to this day. It would be good if you did as well.

[TER]

Although that sounds good on the surface, what it really means is that you deny propositional revelation, which is why Eastern Orthodoxy is a religion of mysticism.

To deny that God conveys meaning to man in propositional form is to deny Christianity altogether.

Sigh. No one here has said that God does not convey meaning to man in propositional form. What is being said is that God can convey meaning to man in more than one way. You are again putting limits on God.

Anyway, Happy Fathers Day to you!