Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 95

Thread: Are We Nearing Civil War?

  1. #1

    Are We Nearing Civil War?

    Are We Nearing Civil War?
    By Patrick J. Buchanan | June 13, 2017 | 4:48 AM EDT
    http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/pa...ring-civil-war

    The first half of the article is below. Click on the link to read the second half.

    President Trump may be chief of state, head of government and commander in chief, but his administration is shot through with disloyalists plotting to bring him down.

    We are approaching something of a civil war where the capital city seeks the overthrow of the sovereign and its own restoration.

    Thus far, it is a nonviolent struggle, though street clashes between pro- and anti-Trump forces are increasingly marked by fistfights and brawls. Police are having difficulty keeping people apart. A few have been arrested carrying concealed weapons.

    That the objective of this city is to bring Trump down via a deep state-media coup is no secret. Few deny it.

    Last week, fired Director of the FBI James Comey, a successor to J. Edgar Hoover, admitted under oath that he used a cutout to leak to The New York Times an Oval Office conversation with the president.

    Goal: have the Times story trigger the appointment of a special prosecutor to bring down the president.

    Comey wanted a special prosecutor to target Trump, despite his knowledge, from his own FBI investigation, that Trump was innocent of the pervasive charge that he colluded with the Kremlin in the hacking of the DNC.

    Comey's deceit was designed to enlist the police powers of the state to bring down his president. And it worked. For the special counsel named, with broad powers to pursue Trump, is Comey's friend and predecessor at the FBI, Robert Mueller.

    As Newt Gingrich said Sunday: "Look at who Mueller's starting to hire. ... (T)hese are people that ... look to me like they're ... setting up to go after Trump ... including people, by the way, who have been reprimanded for hiding from the defense information into major cases. ...

    "This is going to be a witch hunt."

    Another example. According to Daily Kos, Trump planned a swift lifting of sanctions on Russia after inauguration and a summit meeting with Vladimir Putin to prevent a second Cold War.

    The State Department was tasked with working out the details.

    Instead, says Daniel Fried, the coordinator for sanctions policy, he received "panicky" calls of "Please, my God, can you stop this?"

    Operatives at State, disloyal to the president and hostile to the Russia policy on which he had been elected, collaborated with elements in Congress to sabotage any detente. They succeeded.

    "It would have been a win-win for Moscow," said Tom Malinowski of State, who boasted last week of his role in blocking a rapprochement with Russia. State employees sabotaged one of the principal policies for which Americans had voted, and they substituted their own.

    Not in memory have there been so many leaks to injure a president from within his own government, and not just political leaks, but leaks of confidential, classified and secret documents. The leaks are coming out of the supposedly secure investigative and intelligence agencies of the U.S. government.

    The media, the beneficiaries of these leaks, are giving cover to those breaking the law. The real criminal "collusion" in Washington is between Big Media and the deep state, colluding to destroy a president they detest and to sink the policies they oppose.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    We are already in a Civil War.

    What is happening right now is that we are quickly approaching the Violence phase of Civil War, as we have many groups of Officials at odds with each other as well as the people at odds with both themselves and their govt.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  4. #3
    One can only hope. The future of humanity will be decentralization, secession, and people with different ideas going their separate ways. Brexit, California Independence, Texas Secession, Catalonia/Spain, there are many more....
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    We are already in a Civil War.

    What is happening right now is that we are quickly approaching the Violence phase of Civil War, as we have many groups of Officials at odds with each other as well as the people at odds with both themselves and their govt.
    We are just one mag dump away at the needed time and place from getting it on.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  6. #5
    The "civil war" he describes is White House infighting.

  7. #6
    Civil war...lol...the battle for Trump was over long before it even started and the neolibs won without even firing a shot. Didn't any of you ever actually read his books or listen to what he was actually saying...lol...Now they are merely purging the white house of anyone who won't declare their "loyalty". Trumpateers still think he's going to make America great again just as Democrats hold onto a party that won't get rid of the Clintons.....lol....it's all a big lie anyway because there is only one party with 2 different colored heads. The illusion of choice is a hoax just as elections are. The proof is in the money that all leads to the same sources. This country will remain divided because Racism, religion, drugs and abortions are more important than a fast talking billionaire who simply handed the country back to the neolibs. The more violence that plays out backed by hidden money sources, the more military style police will be deployed as the sheep demand it while they continue to flood the streets with cheap heroin. They didn't even care how a fake war on terrorism took away their privacy and tax dollars, what makes anyone think they aren't willing to give up whatever freedoms are left too. We are only one or two more attacks away from that and Trump will make sure it happens. Civil war....only in your dreams....while people continue to falsely point fingers at each other, they took this country without firing a shot. We are an occupied nation. Trump and the Neolibs took the whitehouse and sheep roam the streets.
    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The "civil war" he describes is White House infighting.

    No, he also talks about the media, so-called "deep state," street protestors, etc. I always remember Buchanan talking about a "cultural war."

    The article is right there. Nice try with your blurb contrarian posting. Is that a new technique?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    No, he also talks about the media, so-called "deep state," street protestors, etc. I always remember Buchanan talking about a "cultural war."

    The article is right there. Nice try with your blurb contrarian posting. Is that a new technique?
    I think Zippy attended some training during his recent absence. It is also possible this is his final assignment.



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    I think Zippy attended some training during his recent absence. It is also possible this is his final assignment.
    Have you noticed that Zip seems to have adopted CPUd's technique of posting without commenting. Bot?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  12. #10
    This cultural war talk has been going on for a long while. Difference now, I think, is that social media has heightened it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  13. #11
    Lucky for the citizens that the government let them keep their muskets and flintlocks. Should match well against the government rocketry, explosives, chemical weapons, attack helicopters, satellite reconnaissance, fighter aircraft, tanks, mobile missile launchers, and ammo stocks.
    Last edited by anaconda; 06-13-2017 at 04:44 PM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by showpan View Post
    Civil war...lol...the battle for Trump was over long before it even started and the neolibs won without even firing a shot. Didn't any of you ever actually read his books or listen to what he was actually saying...lol...Now they are merely purging the white house of anyone who won't declare their "loyalty". Trumpateers still think he's going to make America great again just as Democrats hold onto a party that won't get rid of the Clintons.....lol....it's all a big lie anyway because there is only one party with 2 different colored heads. The illusion of choice is a hoax just as elections are.
    The cultural war is already ending, and the traditionalists have basically won it. Trump was the trailing end of it (as Democrats had lost 1,000 seats at all levels before his campaign started). That's why the entire Deep State establishment has been shrieking and freaking out. Trump's victory stopped the barbarians just as they were at the precipice of turning the Supreme Court into the 9th circuit for generations, canceling the protection of individual gun rights, and permanently locking the US into globalist bureaucracies (from TPP to the Paris Climate accords) that would have ended our sovereign control over those matters, with no ability to reverse it.

    With one election we went from the end of pro-lifers ever being able to overturn Roe, to the probability of having 6 or more pro-life Justices in a few years. The gears were already set in motion to sue or prosecute the alternative media into oblivion by criminalizing it as "fake news" or Russian propaganda---but because the "wrong" person won, all those plans were stalled. And there would have been an aggressive full expansion of military intervention to perform regime change in Syria and beyond by this point in an HRC administration, instead of merely limited military strikes or rhetoric. There has been net progress made, in other words, the past few months have been the opposite of a "same as the old boss" scenario.
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 06-14-2017 at 06:07 AM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  15. #13
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Didn't he say during the campaign he would be too busy to play golf- not like that Obama guy?

  17. #15

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...43492151136256
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    The cultural war is already ending, and the traditionalists have basically won it. Trump was the trailing end of it (as Democrats had lost 1,000 seats at all levels before his campaign started). That why the entire Deep State establishment has been shrieking and freaking out. Trump's victory stopped the barbarians just as they were at the precipice of turning the Supreme Court into the 9th circuit for generations, canceling the protection of individual gun rights, and permanently locking the US into globalist bureaucracies (from TPP to the Paris Climate accords) that would have ended our sovereign control over those matters, with no ability to reverse it.

    With one election we went from the end of pro-lifers ever being able to overturn Roe, to the probability of having 6 or more pro-life Justices in a few years. The gears were already set in motion to sue or prosecute the alternative media into oblivion by criminalizing it as "fake news" or Russian propaganda---but because the "wrong" person won, all those plans were stalled. And there would have been an aggressive full expansion of military intervention to perform regime change in Syria and beyond by this point in an HRC administration, instead of merely limited military strikes or rhetoric. There has been net progress made, in other words, the past few months have been the opposite of a "same as the old boss" scenario.
    Yep, you can see the deep state scrambling in this very thread.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Lucky for the citizens that the government let them keep their muskets and flintlocks. Should match well against the government rocketry, explosives, chemical weapons, attack helicopters, satellite reconnaissance, fighter aircraft, tanks, mobile missile launchers, and ammo stocks.
    You're assuming that the vast majority of police and military would be against you. Indeed the opposite it true. Were such a conflict to befall us, the coastal progressives would not prevail. The RINOS would not prevail. The rank and file of the military would not support what you fear.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Lucky for the citizens that the government let them keep their muskets and flintlocks. Should match well against the government rocketry, explosives, chemical weapons, attack helicopters, satellite reconnaissance, fighter aircraft, tanks, mobile missile launchers, and ammo stocks.
    Ummm, yeah.

    10,000 guys in sandals with IEDs and AK-47s have had us hemmed up in the ME for over 15 years now.

    None of that $#@! works without fuel.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    The cultural war is already ending, and the traditionalists have basically won it. Trump was the trailing end of it (as Democrats had lost 1,000 seats at all levels before his campaign started). That why the entire Deep State establishment has been shrieking and freaking out. Trump's victory stopped the barbarians just as they were at the precipice of turning the Supreme Court into the 9th circuit for generations, canceling the protection of individual gun rights, and permanently locking the US into globalist bureaucracies (from TPP to the Paris Climate accords) that would have ended our sovereign control over those matters, with no ability to reverse it.
    Those barbarians are the same people....lol....if you think Trump has stopped anything, you are in denial. TPP and PCA are smoke and mirrors. The only reason the neolibs weren't on board was because they didn't stand to profit like they wanted. They will come up with a more profitable agreement just as they come up with a more profitable replacement for the ACA behind super secret closed doors. At some point, they will go after the guns too. What they say and what they do are 2 different things. Our sovereignty...lol...as we trample on everyone else.


    one election we went from the end of pro-lifers ever being able to overturn Roe, to the probability of having 6 or more pro-life Justices in a few years.
    Abortion should not even be an issue. You say that is if it's a good thing completely contrary to a Libertarian stance of "it's none of your $#@!ing business"

    The gears were already set in motion to sue or prosecute the alternative media into oblivion by criminalizing it as "fake news" or Russian propaganda---but because the "wrong" person won, all those plans were stalled.
    No, what has really happened is that now anytime Trumpateers don't agree with anything ANY media reports...they get to label it "fake news" as if to completely debunk it all so the dumbing down of America can continue as business as usual.

    And there would have been an aggressive full expansion of military intervention to perform regime change in Syria and beyond by this point in an HRC administration, instead of merely limited military strikes or rhetoric. There has been net progress made, in other words, the past few months have been the opposite of a "same as the old boss" scenario.
    We have dropped more ordinance in the last few months than ALL of last year killing significantly more woman and children and ultimately creating more teroorists. BLOWBACK!!! We are now attacking Syrian forces who have ISIS on the run because we fund them through our new bestest greatests allies ever...the $#@!ing Saudi's. We sent ISIS to the Philippines because surely another regime change will happen if we do not get to open our bases back up. We have helped the Saudi's in their quest to silence the only opposition voice of Al Jazeera by denouncing Qutar. We have sent ISIS to Iran...lol.... We have alienated long time allies. Insulted other world leaders. Brought fear of Russia, NK and China back so we can spend over half this nations wealth on another cold war so the "deep state" neolibs can profit even more. The same ol boss is exactly what you have and guess what...the progress that has been made was for the NWO and the complete takeover by neolib warhawks for a military complex that will continue to flood our streets with cheap heroin until the people cry out.....more police please.
    Last edited by showpan; 06-13-2017 at 05:25 PM. Reason: more info
    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Have you noticed that Zip seems to have adopted CPUd's technique of posting without commenting. Bot?
    Yup. Zippy in order to stay on the payroll must have allowed the AI to post at least 50% of his comments. CPUd is already at 90%. Let's see how it goes.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by showpan View Post

    Abortion should not even be an issue. You say that is if it's a good thing completely contrary to a Libertarian stance of "it's none of your $#@!ing business"

    No, what has really happened is that now anytime Trumpateers don't agree with anything ANY media reports...they get to label it "fake news" as if to completely debunk it all so the dumbing down of America can continue as business as usual.

    We have dropped more ordinance in the last few months than ALL of last year killing significantly more woman and children and ultimately creating more teroorists. BLOWBACK!!! We are now attacking Syrian forces who have ISIS on the run because we fund them through our new bestest greatests allies ever...the $#@!ing Saudi's.
    Classic libertarian doctrine is to protect individual rights to LIFE, liberty and property. If you let the State get away with legalized child killing, they will likely get away with everything else, so yes, abortion remains a central issue. It is incoherent to assert that it's not other people's business, while having no problem with the federal government making it their business to enforce the same notions on the issue on 50 different states.

    The MSM and PC side created the "fake news" meme, not the Trumpsters, so you must mean they were the ones out to dumb the public down. To repeat, a Hillary DOJ was going to be fanatical in joining in suits or prosecutions of the "fake news" alternative media, aka any media the establishment doesn't control.

    The approach taken by Trump in Syria is interventionist, yes, but geared towards ending the conflict with ISIS in months, not to carry on open-ended, no exit wars for decades, as Hillary was clearly prepared to do. There is a difference.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    Classic libertarian doctrine is to protect individual rights to LIFE, liberty and property. If you let the State get away with legalized child killing, they will likely get away with everything else, so yes, abortion remains a central issue. It is incoherent to assert that it's not other people's business, while having no problem with the federal government making it their business to enforce the same notions on the issue on 50 different states.

    The MSM and PC side created the "fake news" meme, not the Trumpsters, so you must mean they were the ones out to dumb the public down. To repeat, a Hillary DOJ was going to be fanatical in joining in suits or prosecutions of the "fake news" alternative media, aka any media the establishment doesn't control.

    The approach taken by Trump in Syria is interventionist, yes, but geared towards ending the conflict with ISIS in months, not to carry on open-ended, no exit wars for decades, as Hillary was clearly prepared to do. There is a difference.
    Yeah, he only bombed for 15 minutes, so not really a boondoggle.

    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  26. #23
    If a war is civil, does that mean people fight nicely?

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-13-2017 at 07:10 PM.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    Classic libertarian doctrine is to protect individual rights to LIFE, liberty and property. If you let the State get away with legalized child killing, they will likely get away with everything else, so yes, abortion remains a central issue. It is incoherent to assert that it's not other people's business, while having no problem with the federal government making it their business to enforce the same notions on the issue on 50 different states.

    The MSM and PC side created the "fake news" meme, not the Trumpsters, so you must mean they were the ones out to dumb the public down. To repeat, a Hillary DOJ was going to be fanatical in joining in suits or prosecutions of the "fake news" alternative media, aka any media the establishment doesn't control.

    The approach taken by Trump in Syria is interventionist, yes, but geared towards ending the conflict with ISIS in months, not to carry on open-ended, no exit wars for decades, as Hillary was clearly prepared to do. There is a difference.
    No, a fetus that has not been born is not entitled to your interpretation of life, liberty and property. As a matter of fact, a fetus is the property of that woman, not yours. Again, it's none of your damn business and to deny the option places you right along side fascists and dictators. I have no doubt your true intentions are religious in nature. You deny the woman her choice while hypocritically defending the illegal "limited" intervention of another sovereign nation that is killing scores of children. Regime change is the primary goal and your "Hillary" defense is quite simply...very neoliberal of you. Fake news memes are in fact being created by large P&R firms hired by alt right supporters (Trumpsters) in order to "debunk" any negative reporting of the Trump administration. Trump used "fake news" over and over again in his campaign. How typical a neoliberal would try to blame that on MSM themselves....lol...much like blaming the Iranian ISIS attacks on the victims.
    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Government should be kept out of the matter of abortion

    Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Lib...y_Abortion.htm


    So, why are we attacking forces that are fighting against ISIS.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKBN18X2JP

    We are backing ISIS indirectly through the Saudi's and Qatar.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7362071.html

    We are in a proxy war with Russia and Iran for regime change in Syria and it's not going to end anytime soon

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/asad-a...b_5874488.html


    Kock Bros launch new P&R propaganda factory...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/poli...r-firm-n693176
    Last edited by showpan; 06-13-2017 at 07:50 PM.
    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson

  30. #26
    Hopefully this will bring about world peace.
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by showpan View Post
    No, a fetus that has not been born is not entitled to your interpretation of life, liberty and property. As a matter of fact, a fetus is the property of that woman, not yours. Again, it's none of your damn business and to deny the option places you right along side fascists and dictators. I have no doubt your true intentions are religious in nature. You deny the woman her choice while hypocritically defending the illegal "limited" intervention of another sovereign nation that is killing scores of children. Regime change is the primary goal and your "Hillary" defense is quite simply...very neoliberal of you. Fake news memes are in fact being created by large P&R firms hired by alt right supporters (Trumpsters) in order to "debunk" any negative reporting of the Trump administration. Trump used "fake news" over and over again in his campaign. How typical a neoliberal would try to blame that on MSM themselves....lol...much like blaming the Iranian ISIS attacks on the victims.
    Too bad you don't agree with the man who this site is named after.


    “I am strongly pro-life. I think one of the most disastrous rulings of this century was Roe versus Wade. I do believe in the slippery slope theory. I believe that if people are careless and casual about life at the beginning of life, we will be careless and casual about life at the end. Abortion leads to euthanasia. I believe that.”

    “As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there’s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there’s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it.”

    “Pro-life libertarians have a vital task to perform: to persuade the many abortion-supporting libertarians of the contradiction between abortion and individual liberty; and, to sever the mistaken connection in many minds between individual freedom and the 'right' to extinguish individual life.” (Being Pro-Life Is Necessary to Defend Liberty)

    “The right of an innocent, unborn child to life is at the heart of the American ideal of liberty.”

    - Ron Paul

    The unborn baby is just as much a human being as you and I, simply in a different stage of life. Therefore, abortion is not just a personal choice that involves one person, it involves at least two lives.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  32. #28
    "Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable."
    - Ayn Rand .


    "no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person's body" and that therefore the woman is entitled to eject the fetus from her body at any time"
    - Murray Rothbard

    "The ninth and tenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution do not grant the federal government any authority to legalize or ban abortion."
    - Ron Paul


    LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES VERSUS ABORTION PROHIBITION

    1. Individual liberty is the most basic libertarian principle, including as applied to reproduction and abortion. Personhood, and thus individual rights to liberty, exist only after birth when a child becomes self-conscious, capable of cognition and able to engage in purposeful action to affect their environment. The sperm and egg and fetus may be alive, but that does not mean they are persons with rights.
    2. A living person’s first responsibility is to themselves. A woman should not be forced to sacrifice her liberty – and even her life – for the biological survival of a fetus which has no equivalent right to liberty. Childbearing risks women’s health and lives and is far more dangerous than legal abortion. Over 300,000 women a year worldwide die during pregnancy or delivery and over 600 in the United States. Some describe this as a conflict of rights; we believe the woman’s rights are far stronger.
    3. Every person should be free to defend themselves from something acting forcefully against their liberty. This includes a woman’s right to defend herself against a fetus never wanted, or no longer wanted, within her body. Consent must be ongoing and is revocable. Libertarians recognize women are responsible and rarely exercise their right to late term abortion except under extra-ordinary circumstances. In fact, government restrictions make it harder and more expensive to arrange abortions, resulting in far more later term abortions.
    4. The freedom to abort must be contrasted with prohibition of abortion which leads to compulsory childbearing; this is use of a woman’s body as a natural resource and herself as a chattel slave. Some call it “forced birthism.” Forcing women to continue unwanted pregnancies sets the precedent for government forcing any person – male or female – to provide bodily tissue and fluids to help others survive.
    5. Only voluntary means of convincing a woman to give birth to child are libertarian. Thus only personal counseling and provisions of private economic aid and/or adoption services are libertarian ways to discourage abortion.

    SELF-OWNERSHIP

    1. Libertarians believe individuals should be sovereign over their own lives and that no one should be forced to sacrifice for the benefit of others. They believe men and women own their bodies and have rights over that “private property” which other individuals, groups, and governments may not violate.
    2. Principles of self-ownership mean one’s reproductive choices are strictly personal. A woman has a right to right to control the pregnancy taking place within her body until the point of birth. We believe women acting voluntarily, without imposed social or legal restrictions, will use good sense in using contraception and, when that fails, in having abortions early in pregnancy.
    3. Many libertarians use the analogy of the fetus as a trespasser, a “stowaway” or even a parasite. The woman has a right to eject the unwanted intruder from her property, i.e., her body, in order to preserve her own life and liberty. This is true even if the fetus initially was “invited” but then becomes an “unwelcome guest.”
    4. If the state can force a pregnant woman to allow her body, i.e. her property, to be used to service a fetus, it can force any one to do with his or her body or property anything government considers to be of service to others or to the state itself.

    SELF-DETERMINATION

    1. The principle of self-determination makes individuals free moral agents to determine their reproductive status. Since the woman is a free moral agent with sole dominion over her life, her claim to life is stronger than that of a fetus which has minimal self-consciousness and cognition and cannot engage in purposeful action. The woman’s right to self-determination means the choice to carry the child to term is hers alone.
    2. Self-determination means individuals cannot be forced to abide by an onerous contract that makes them a defacto “slave”. Libertarians reject “slavery” contracts. That includes any alleged “contract” with a fetus, a being incapable of making a contract.
    3. Women may agree to abortion restrictions in a marriage contract or in order to enter a contractual community. However, their right to self-determination means they are not a slave to that contract and may leave a relationship or a community to seek an abortion.
    4. If a woman has not made a child support contract with the father, the ensuing responsibility for the child is hers alone. If there is a support contract and either spouse finds that circumstances make it impossible to fulfill without it becoming a slave contract, the parents should seek mediation or arbitration to change the contract terms.
    5. Many libertarians believe it is wrong to carry to term a fetus so deformed that it can never care for itself or live as a truly self-conscious, self-determining person.

    LIMITED GOVERNMENT

    1. In this issue, as in so many, libertarians believe in the principle that “government is the problem, not the solution”. Overwhelmingly, government laws and regulations have negative unintended consequences, especially when government is prohibiting something that people demand.
    2. We reject “states rights” views regarding abortion and support only those “constitutionalist” arguments that comply with libertarian principles. Therefore we agree with Supreme Court arguments in Roe v. Wade which held that a right to “privacy” in abortion could be deduced from: First Amendment freedom of speech, assembly, and religion; Third Amendment freedom from forced quartering of troops; Fourth Amendment freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; Fifth Amendment freedom from forced self-incrimination; Ninth Amendment protection of “rights retained by the people”; and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Libertarians might add Tenth Amendment protection of “powers retained by the people” and Thirteenth Amendment prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude, of which forced pregnancy is an obvious example.
    3. We oppose abortion prohibitionists’ religious or philosophical arguments that support use of the state to force others to adhere to those views. We find particularly offensive any arguments against contraception. Those who consider abortion to be “intentional and pre-meditated murder” even may believe women’s pregnancies should be monitored and all miscarriages investigated by police. As many as 20 percent of pregnancies naturally miscarry, most in the first twelve weeks. Such prosecutions endanger women of child bearing age. And most prohibitionists do call for prosecution, conviction, prison, fines and even execution of women and abortion service providers.
    4. Abortion laws and regulations, like most other laws and regulations, only multiply and expand their scope. Through most of history community standards and common law permitted abortion, which typically was done using abortifacient herbs or physical techniques in the first weeks of pregnancy. After medicine became more professionalized, physician lobbies demanded abortion and midwifery be outlawed. The Catholic Church also became active in the issue. After the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision the largely protestant Republican Party decided to use abortion as a wedge issue for political advantage. Between just 2010-2015 the Republican Party convinced seventeen states to pass laws banning abortion after 18 or 20 weeks. Since 2011 restrictive state regulations shut down more than 160 clinics. In 2016 nineteen states passed 60 new abortion restrictions. In the two months after the election of Donald Trump nearly 50 anti-abortion laws were introduced on the state and federal level. Dozens followed in the following months.
    5. It is obvious that efforts to outlaw abortion since the 1970s only have encouraged fanatics to bomb and burn abortion facilities and threaten and kill clinic staffers. This has driven many qualified physicians away from providing services.
    6. The consequences, intended and unintended, of laws restricting or outlawing abortion are well known because women suffered them during the hundred and fifty years abortion was illegal in the United States. Abortion restrictions greatly increase the number of “late term” abortions as women are forced to raise money to pay for more expensive abortions and go long distances, and even to other states, for the medical procedure. Abortion prohibition creates a black market in abortions, leading to unprofessional abortions and even infection, mutilation, infertility and death. Girls and women who have suffered incest or rape are forced to suffer the trauma of giving birth to an unwanted child. Unwanted children often are psychologically damaged by their mother’s distressed pregnancy. Women prosecuted for abortion-related “crimes” and sent to prison often leave existing children behind to be neglected or abused by relatives or the governmental foster care system. Given the consequences, prohibiting abortion hardly can be called a “pro-life” position.

    CONCLUSION

    Prohibiting abortion is clearly against libertarian principles of individual liberty, self-ownership, self-determination and limited government. The consequences of restricting and outlawing abortion can be catastrophic for individual women.

    Libertarians who want libertarians or the Libertarian Party to remain silent about, or take no position on, issues of reproductive rights and abortion, may not understand the negative consequences of unwanted pregnancies for women. However, they should understand that enforcing these laws, and dealing with the consequences of these laws, only increase the power of government. Government uses abortion as yet one more excuse to intrude on every aspect of our lives.

    http://pro-choicelibertarians.net/principles/
    Last edited by showpan; 06-13-2017 at 08:25 PM.
    Do you want to know who you are? Don't ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.
    Thomas Jefferson

  33. #29
    How in the world does a woman get an unwanted baby in her womb? Seems she made her decision to have a baby when she allowed someone to inseminate her.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    How in the world does a woman get an unwanted baby in her womb? Seems she made her decision to have a baby when she allowed someone to inseminate her.
    You can get pregnant this way?

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. IMF: U.S. debt nearing 100 percent of GDP
    By bobbyw24 in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 05-17-2010, 07:38 AM
  2. Nearing the top
    By Revolution0918 in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-02-2009, 02:38 PM
  3. GOP nearing brink of generation gap
    By mediahasyou in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-22-2009, 10:00 AM
  4. Nearing 6.5%
    By PimpBlimp in forum Michigan
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-15-2008, 09:30 PM
  5. Nearing 200,000! 300,000 Tomorrow morning?
    By libertythor in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-25-2007, 03:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •