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Thread: Was Lincoln a Tyrant?

  1. #1

    Was Lincoln a Tyrant?

    Lincoln the Tyrant

    “Dictatorship played a decisive role in the north's successful effort to maintain the union by force of arms... one man was the government of the united states...Lincoln was a great dictator... this great constitutional dictator was self appointed”
    -Historian Clinton Rossiter, Constitutional Dictatorship


    President Lincoln did not lead the country from within the confines of presidential power within the constitution. Lincoln disregarded the constitution and ruled America rather than led America. Lincoln did not really have a presidency, he violated separation of powers and made himself a dictator. He is called by various historians “an uncompromising dictator." “a dictator from the standpoint of American Constitutional law and practice” others referring to his presidency as the “Lincoln dictatorship” others to his administration as a “Temporary dictatorship” James Ford Rhodes a defender of Lincoln called him a dictator. A song titled “Abe the dictator” was used by northern democrats during the 1864 election.

    Maryland

    Maryland was under complete military control. Lincoln would not allow Maryland to even discuss the question of succession. Lincoln suspended writ of Hadus Corpus arresting and imprisoned without due process legislators, mayors, newspaper editors, citizens and publishers to prevent a vote on succession in Maryland. Even the grandson of Francis Scott Key [Star spangled Banner author] was thrown into prison at Fort McHenry. When this was declared unconstitutional [only congress can suspend writ of Hadus corpus] by Chief Justice Taney, Lincoln issued an arrest warrant for Taney and Lincoln ignored the ruling. General Banks was sent to search house by house for pro peace or succession legislators. General Butler said he would bombard Annapolis if they met to discuss succession. They used color coded ballots so pro peace votes in Maryland could be spotted and arrested. He shut down and imprison newspaper editors and newspapers in the state.

    The North, Home of the Free and Brave?


    “This amazing disregard for the...constitution was considered by no one legal”
    -Historian Clinton Rossiter


    Throughout the north Lincoln imprisoned 13,000 political enemies, intimidated anyone who spoke out against Lincolns policies and did a great harm to freedom of speech. He Jailed anyone suspected of confederate loyalty with no trial. The jails were used to

    “Establish the fact that the federal government was the greatest power in the nation”
    -Dean Sprague Freedom Under Lincoln


    Lincoln confiscated private property and firearms from civilians in border states violating the second amendment, deported Ohio congressmen Clement L. Vallandigham for speaking out against him.

    “Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime to damage morale should be arrested, exiled, or hanged”
    -Abraham Lincoln


    He introduced the first military draft. Ministers were arrested for not saying a prayer for the president in church service as required by the Lincoln administration. He invaded southern states without congress consent, and blockaded ports without declaring war. In 1863 the Lincoln administration passed the “Idenmity act” this put Lincoln, his cabinet, and the military above the law. It never got enough votes to pass so it was simply declared law.

    Free Elections and Freedom of the press?


    Lincoln participated in rigging northern elections, not just in Maryland. In the 1864 elections New York used colored ballets [red and blue] so federal soldiers could harass and prevent democratic voters in the state “Under the protection of Federal bayonets, New York went Republican by seven thousand votes.” He also unconstitutionally Created west Virginia for the 64 election. Lincoln censored the telegraphs, shut down hundreds of newspapers and imprisoned editors who were critical of his policies or the war to control how people viewed the war and his policies.

    Lincolns Enemies the South and the Native Americans

    “Lincoln was an even worse tyrant than George the third was”
    -Thomas Dilorenzo The Real Lincoln


    It was Lincolns opinion that the south had no legal right to succeed and he refused to recognize the south as a separate country, therefore they were still citizens of the united states. The north fought a war that would not allow the south to leave, yet denied them voting rights and representation after the war, breaking the union, the very thing they said they wished to save. Lincoln also gutted the 9/10 amendments.

    During the war in the south Lincoln violated the Geneva conventions rules for war. Had entire towns destroyed, civilians murdered, animals killed, food taken, houses Burt down, waged war against non combatants civilians, confiscated private property, had hundreds of priests and minsters imprisoned for not saying prayers for Abraham Lincoln in occupied southern territory, hundreds of churches were burned. He denied occupied south the right to vote “government by the people” and medicines were withheld by union blockade. He Forced out southern newspapers and implemented northern newspapers to control free speech.

    Lincoln viewed native Americans as savages and put General John Pope in charge of a war with native Americans who said “It is my purpose to utterly exterminate the Sioux... they are to be treated as maniacs or wild beats, and by no means as people with whom treaties or contracts can be made.” Dec 26 1862 Lincoln ordered the largest mass exsectuion in American history 39 native Americans.

    The Great Centralizer

    “Lincoln...undermined the constitutional safeguards of freedom as he opened the way to centralized government with all its political evils”
    -Edmund Wilson

    “A great centralizing force has been set in motion”
    -Leonard Curry


    Some especially today, will view the following as “good” and a reason to love Lincoln, others such as myself strongly disagree. Lincoln is known by various historians as the “Great Centralizer” and Others call him the founding father of big government. Some see Lincoln along with Lenin as joining the impulse to centralize government in the mid 1800's. Lincoln was of the the Clay American System consisted of mercantilism, protectionism, the centralization of governmental power, and inflationism. His opponent Stephen Douglas said of Lincolns political goals as wanting to impose “On the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by a central government.” That election was said by historians to be a contest between “One consolidated empire and “confederacy of sovereign and equal states of Jefferson and Jackson”, “Lincoln goes for consolidation and uniformity in our government,” Douglas charged, “while I go for maintaining the confederation of the sovereign states.” Lincoln sought to consolidate power in the central federal government.

    “My politics are short and sweet...I am in favor of a national bank...in favor of the internal improvements system and a high protective tariff”
    -Abraham Lincoln 1832


    From Union to Empire

    The strongest impact of Lincoln on American centralization was his transformation of America from a union and collection of states to a modern nation. See here

    From Union to Empire- The Political Effects of the Civil war
    From Union to Empire- The Political Effects of the Civil war


    Taxation

    “Furry of new laws, regulations, and bureaucracies created by president Lincoln and the republican party”
    -Thomas J Dilorenzo


    Before Lincoln was elected the average citizen only had contact with the federal government for mail. But after Lincoln “every citizen now had direct contact with, and felt the direct influence of, the federal government. A great centralizing force had been set into motion. . . . The needs of the government had resulted in a drastic redrawing of the federal tax base.” He created an early version of the IRS with 7,000 federal employees, ran up 2.5 billion in debt, instituted the first income tax, imposed “sin taxes” on alcohol and tobacco “Taxes on everything imaginable” From perfume, playing cards to bowling to going to the theater. Taxes were so high that “Never again would it be contracted to its prewar scope.” And with Lincoln “Taxation on a scale never before seen in the US was imposed on the population.” laid massive rail, founded the transcontinental railroad, gave 58 million acres to rail companies. created the department of agricultural Lincoln sighed into law 10 tariff raising bills and introduced massive corporate-welfare schemes.

    National Banking

    “To nationalize as much as possible, even currency, so as to make men love country first before their states, all private interest, local interests, all banking interests, the interests of individuals everything should be subordinate now to the interests of the government”
    -Senator John Sherman of Ohio [ This a change in philosophy from founders that government serves the people ]


    The government went deep into debt because of the war and this allowed Lincoln to add his wanted central banking, the motive that got him involved in politics in the first place. He instituted national banks with the ability to print greenbacks not backed by gold or silver. Of course not everyone in the north wanted this as congressmen Powell stated

    “It utterly to destroy all the rights of the states. It is asserting a power which if carried out to its logical result would enable the national congress to destroy every institution of the states and cause all power to be consolidated and concentrated here” [D.C ]
    -Kentucky democrat Lazarous Powell


    To help conform the public to go along with national banking Lincoln added a 10% tax to state banks to help impose a national bank monopoly [The power to tax is the power to destroy] and hired Jay Cooke to use newspapers ads to attack state chartered banks, so national bank would dominate. Those who supported national banking such as Senator John Sherman of Ohio [Brother of General Sherman] said “the permanently increased government power embodied in the bill,” would foster “a sentiment of nationality.” This “A nationalized money supply helped transform America from a constitutional republic to an empire”

    “The American public was also relentlessly propagandized by the government and its private sector accomplices, such as Jay Cooke, into believing that it could now look to the federal government for solutions to its problems. This made it easier for future generations of politicians to convince the American public to acquiesce in further expansions of government and further restrictions on personal liberty that would have caused the founding fathers to reach for their swords”
    -Thomas Dilorenzo The Real Lincoln


    Honest Abe? Lincoln the Master Politician

    "Lincoln was a master politician, which means he was a consummate conniver, manipulator, and liar."
    -Murray Rothbard

    “Those that new Lincoln best, never called him honest Abe”
    -Richard Smith Presidential Historian George Mason University


    Part of what is believed about the Lincoln myth is Abraham Lincoln was an honest, good person. The Lincoln myth in some ways started with Lincolns public image. The historical Lincoln was a master politician who used people for his own power and agenda. He was a political opportunist who drifted with the tide “a quest for office” He would lie and mislead people to convince them to support him.

    “Lincoln was Americas first modern politician”
    -Al Benson Jr and Walter Kennedy Lincolns Marxists


    Described as an expert politician able to condone and condemn at the same time. He would say yes, and no, and make listeners believe his intentions were good, a modern politician. His opponent in 1858 Stephen Douglass stated Lincoln “Can trim his principles any way in any section, so as to secure votes.” The Chicago daily democrat press said Lincoln “Provided a kind of loophole for escape if anything he said should not satisfy all kinds of views.”

    “There is a grand canyon between what Lincoln said and what he did...He ignored the Constitution when he wanted to and hide behind it when he wanted to.”
    -Lerone Bennett Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

    Abolitionist who sought to bring Lincoln to their side well knew Lincoln was a politician as Wendall Phillips stated “Lincoln is a Pawn on the political chessboard. With fair effort, we may soon change him for a knight, bishop or queen, and sweep the board.” At the age of 45 Lincoln first spoke out against the extension of slavery out west. He “Rode to glory on the public waves” as the north turned against the Kansas/Nebraska act. Lincoln “reinvented himself” and for the first time he spoke against slavery. Had public opinion never turned against slavery, its likely the master politician never would have. Even his own cabinet did not think him a great president.

    “In every single stand he took, which superficially might appear to be an original attitude, either substantial or major groups had passed that point before him, and it was only the support that they had gathered and their potential strength that enticed Lincoln to the position”
    -Thaddeus Stevens Fredrick Douglass 1934

    Lincolns Public Image

    “Shrewd manufacturer of his public image”
    -Richard Smith presidential historian George mason University

    Lincoln was able to Cunningly shape his own public image. He new how to sell himself, he would create a dishonest image of himself to sell to the public. For more see National geographic Top Secrets about Abraham Lincoln

    Lincoln Rail Splitter or Rich Railroad Lobbyist

    “Lincoln was what today would be called a “lobbyist” for the railroad industry”
    -Thomas J Dilorenzo Lincoln Unmasked


    While running for president Lincoln sold himself as a poor country rail splitter. In reality Lincoln was a rich powerful rail lobbyist and lawyer. He was a corporate trial lawyer, his clients were from every major railroad cooperation in the west. He subsidized $12 million tax in Illinois to rail corporations that ended in a big failure. But helped him politically become known as a railroad lobbyist. He was a cooperate insider and traveled with his own private rail car with a free pass, around the Midwest.

    Lincolns powerful industrial interests were always present at political councils. 1862 Lincoln used a bill for the Union Pacific Railroad Tax payer subsidized to pay off northern business for their support of him and the republican party[Republican party still today allied with major industry]. He used government subsidized railroad that involving ethnic cleansing and removal of the great plains Indians from their land to make way for the rail road.

    Lincolns personality

    “Lincoln was not a social man, loved no man much, was more or less selfish”
    -William Herdon

    “No strong emotional feelings for any person mankind or thing”
    -Judge Davis Eighth Judicial Circuit


    Lincoln was described as selfish, manipulative, cold and said to use men like tools. Elizabeth Edwards Lincolns sister in law said Lincoln was “a cold man” with “no heart.” Law partner John Stuart said “there was no part of his nature which drew him to do acts of gratitude to his friends.” Lincoln suffered with depression and took medicine for it. He was quick tempered, prone to ramblings and outburst of anger.

    “Lincoln was the most-hated president of all time during his own lifetime...The fact that he is now the most revered of all American presidents is a result of the work of generations of court historians and statist apologists who have literally rewritten American history in the same manner that the Soviets rewrote Russian history to consolidate their political power”.
    -Lincoln The Great Centralizer Thomas J Dilorenzo



    Main References

    - Lincoln Unmasked what your not suppose to know about Dishonest Abe Thomas J Dilorenzo Three rivers Press Crown Forum 2006
    -Lincolns Marxists Al Benson Jr and Walter Kennedy Pelican Press 2011
    -33 questions about American history you're not suppose to ask Thomas Woods Crown forum NY 2007
    The Great Civil War Debate hosted by american vision c-span Peter Marshall Jr. vs Steve Wilkin s
    The politically incorrect guide to the south Clint Johnson 2007 Regnery publications inc
    The states rights tradition nobody knows Thomas Woods
    Thomas Jefferson and the principles of 98 Thomas Woods
    The fourteenth amendment -Thomas woods
    - The Real Lincoln Thomas J Dilorenzo Three Rivers press NY NY 2002
    Harry V. Jaffa and Thomas J. DiLorenzo | The Real Abraham Lincoln: A Debate politically incorrect guide to the civil war H.W Crocker third 2008 Regnery publications inc
    The politically incorrect guide to American history Thomas e woods 2004 Regnery publications inc
    The south was Right James Ronald Kennedy and Walter Donald Kennedy Pelican 2014 reprint
    Jefferson Davis The rise and fall of the confederate government
    The Civil war PBS series by Ken Burns
    The American heritage series By Historian David Barton at wallbuilders.com
    Building on the American heritage series by David Barton 2011
    Americas godly heritage by David Barton 1992
    Foundations of freedom by David Barton 2015
    The Constitution Of The Confederate States Of America Explained A Clause By Clause Study Of The Souths Magna Carta Lochlainn Seabrook Sea Raven Press 2012
    -Raphael Semmes, Memoirs of Service Afloat During the War Between the States Baltimore, MD. Kelly Piet & Co. 1868
    Major General John B. Gordon Causes of the Civil War. 1903
    A Constitutional view of the late war between the states: its causes By Alexander Hamilton Stephens 1870
    The Confederate States of America, 1861--1865: A History of the South Lousianna state university press by E.Merton Coulter 1950
    A Defense Of Virginia And The South R.L Dabney 1867 Sprinkle publications
    Myths and Realities of American Slavery John C Perry Burd Street Press 2002
    Redeeming American Democracy Lessons from the confederate constitution Marshall L. Derosa Pelican press 2007
    The Confederate Constitution of 1861: An Inquiry Into American Constitutionalism By Marshall L. DeRosa University of Missouri Press



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  3. #2
    Yes.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    More like hero, he put the "united" in "united states"

    now we're just one big happy family.

    Thanks Lincoln !
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  5. #4
    Lincoln was hypocritical scum.

    Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right — a right which, we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. — Speech by Abraham Lincoln in the House of Representatives, January 12, 1848
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Temporary Ban


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    Sep 2011
    All Presidents are dictators. As long as you lead a government organized on the principle of violent compulsion then dictatorship is, at best, only a few steps away.

  7. #6
    Welcome 1stVermont.

    Short answer, yes.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Short answer, yes.
    Long answer: Hell, yes!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Welcome 1stVermont.

    Short answer, yes.
    Thanks glad to be hear.



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  11. #9

  12. #10
    It's obvious to any who want to look at the evidence...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  13. #11
    Si
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people...



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  14. #12
    Yes , but not really because of maryland , he should have forced england to take it back.
    Do something Danke

  15. #13
    Bump
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Bump
    You decided tonight was a good night to turn the New Posts screen into the "perfect evidence" our enemies can use to convince people libertarians are all obsessed with the Civil War, trashing Lincoln and reminiscing about slavery?

    Should we look around the web for the screen shot so we know who paid you to do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You decided tonight was a good night to turn the New Posts screen into the "perfect evidence" our enemies can use to convince people libertarians are all obsessed with the Civil War, trashing Lincoln and reminiscing about slavery?

    Should we look around the web for the screen shot so we know who paid you to do it?
    Actually, I'm kinda glad he did. I had missed many of these informative posts. And the timing of the bumps couldn't have been better for me. YMMV.

    I had just finished reading 'Campaigns of the Civil War' by Walter Geer. A very in-depth look at the battles and the generals that commanded in them. Most interesting to me was the last five paragraphs in the last chapter labeled "Conclusion."

    It details in short the main reason that the Confederacy lost. It had the best generals. They were able to lead from the field and politics was not involved in their placement. In short they had to earn their position. The southern soldier was a better shot and the early adoption of conscription insured that there were always seasoned vets to teach new recruits. In short they had what they needed to win.

    It was politics that done 'em in. Seems the Confederate government was sitting on some 5 million bales of cotton. Had they decided to sell they could have raised $500 million dollars. Enough to pay for guns, feed the troops, paid well and have the sick and wounded properly cared for. And STILL had as much in the bank as the North.

    Instead they held onto it hoping that France and England would barter a truce so that they could open trade again. It was a fatal mistake and one that changed history.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 11-28-2018 at 06:30 AM.

  18. #16
    Ja
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people...



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.



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  20. #17
    https://panampost.com/valerie-marsma...?cn-reloaded=1

    Jonathan Blanks

    There is a strain of libertarian contrarianism that holds that the Confederate States of America were within their “rights” to secede from the Union. Such contrarianism on this particular topic is detrimental to the larger cause of liberty because the logic of this argument relies upon relinquishing individual rights to the whim of the state. Indeed, as there is no legal or moral justification for supporting the Confederacy in the Civil War, it is impossible that there could be a libertarian one.

    The legal argument against secession is straight-forward. Beyond the simple fact that most countries don’t provide for their own dissolution at the outset, the US Constitution is not silent on the use of force by the federal government. Article I Section 8 clearly grants Congress the power to put down insurrections, as the South was well aware. As recently as 1859, that power had been used by then-Union Colonel Robert E. Lee to put down John Brown’s mindless and bloody raid on Harpers Ferry.

    But to support the Declaration of Independence is to support secession. Thus, from the outset, it is nearly impossible to defend the American idea — that the people may separate themselves from an oppressive government in order to govern themselves — without accepting secession as a legitimate political action under certain circumstances, at least.

    This, however, does not necessarily mean that all secession is justified. In the Declaration, Jefferson writes, “Prudence … will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes,” necessarily implying that some separations are indeed imprudent and any such separation should be judged on its individual merits.

    A predictable and stable adherence to the Rule of Law is the indispensable tenet of any form of just government, and so the dissolution of that government must be preceded by systemic injustice or other reason that appeals to higher or natural law. Without this ordered liberty and deference to individual rights, laws cease to mean anything other than the imposition of will by man upon man.

    Because Confederate-secession defenders will not typically make arguments in favor of chattel slavery, they rely instead on the assumption that secession is an unbounded right and thus a state may leave a country for whatever reason it chooses. To accept this premise, one has to bypass moral judgment on the cause of secession, yet affirmatively assign a morality to secession as a matter of preferred political procedure — in common parlance as “states’ rights.” This turns the assumption of individual rights on its head, if the federalist procedure is to supersede the right of exit of any group or individual within that state, as the Confederacy’s slave economy unquestionably did.

    People who imagine themselves free have, in theory, a right of exit if and when they choose to separate themselves from the state in which they live. Suspending for the sake of argument the economic hardships that may entail, the right of one’s own separation — an individual secession, if you will — remains. Except in the Confederacy, where no such right existed for the slaves for which the Southern states unquestionably and proudly seceded...


    While it would be disingenuous to say that the North began the war with the intent to end slavery, it would be nothing short of delusion to say the South did not fight to preserve both slavery and the white supremacy upon which it relied.

    A war for slavery is, by definition, a fight against the individual right of exit. It takes an extraordinary leap for a libertarian to assign rights to a state which are denied to the people or an individual. Properly understood, states have powers, not rights. The fundamental tenet of rights theory is that a man or woman has property in him- or herself and that he or she voluntarily gives up only a small portion of his or her rights when joining a state. The right of exit is indeed a solemn one, but its root lies with the individual, not a body of elites and their self-interested whims.

    In nearly every other circumstance, especially dealing with war, a libertarian is often the first to ask cui bono? To whose benefit would war be? What is the real justification for this war? For nearly every other war, the arguments for war are questioned and usually debunked by libertarians, most of whom oppose war under any non-essential circumstance, often stridently. Yet, the idea that the slave-holding elite would separate itself from the rest of the nation to protect its financial interest in holding other human beings as property is, somehow — to some people who espouse the rights of the individual as sacrosanct — lumped in with a fight for freedom?

    As an aside: that most soldiers of the Confederacy didn’t have slaves or think they were fighting to preserve slavery is non sequitur. The argument against the South’s actions in the Civil War has nothing to do with the motivations of its soldiers. The blame lies with the actions of the political elite. There are many US Americans who went to fight and die in Vietnam who thought they were fighting for the preservation of liberty — when, in fact, they were fighting on an arbitrary side in a civil war that had nothing to do with the United States or its way of life. (That communism makes people less free is a truism, but I’m less convinced the people of Vietnam were better off with civilians subject to napalm attacks and a million war dead during American operations than they were under Ho Chi Minh and the more open style of communism that has defined Vietnam in the five decades hence.) It’s remarkably sad that so many died for a lie, but that doesn’t change the essence of the lie...

    The anti-libertarian results of the Civil War are evident. The federal government centralized a great deal of power in the post-war years and that sort of power is well-understood to be very dangerous to individual liberty. Yet, it is not as if the abuse of individual rights by the states ended at Appomattox. For the century following the end of Reconstruction, the southern states (and, to a lesser extent, some northern states) implemented laws and customs which systematically stripped the rights of blacks. From voting rights to freedom of contract and free association, the southern states oppressed their black citizens. This retarded the post-war southern economies — stultifying a portion of the population relegated to substandard educational accommodations and economic opportunities — despite protestations from some apologists that the market would work it all out eventually. Similarly, the Atlantic’s Ta-Nehisi Coates and Slate’s Matt Yglesias show that the economics of and rhetoric supporting the antebellum slave system were thriving, despite claims that the “peculiar institution” was dying for reasons wholly separate from the war.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-28-2018 at 01:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    A predictable and stable adherence to the Rule of Law is the indispensable tenet of any form of just government, and so the dissolution of that government must be preceded by systemic injustice or other reason that appeals to higher or natural law. Without this ordered liberty and deference to individual rights, laws cease to mean anything other than the imposition of will by man upon man.

    Because Confederate-secession defenders will not typically make arguments in favor of chattel slavery, they rely instead on the assumption that secession is an unbounded right and thus a state may leave a country for whatever reason it chooses. To accept this premise, one has to bypass moral judgment on the cause of secession, yet affirmatively assign a morality to secession as a matter of preferred political procedure — in common parlance as “states’ rights.” This turns the assumption of individual rights on its head, if the federalist procedure is to supersede the right of exit of any group or individual within that state, as the Confederacy’s slave economy unquestionably did.

    People who imagine themselves free have, in theory, a right of exit if and when they choose to separate themselves from the state in which they live. Suspending for the sake of argument the economic hardships that may entail, the right of one’s own separation — an individual secession, if you will — remains. Except in the Confederacy, where no such right existed for the slaves for which the Southern states unquestionably and proudly seceded...


    While it would be disingenuous to say that the North began the war with the intent to end slavery, it would be nothing short of delusion to say the South did not fight to preserve both slavery and the white supremacy upon which it relied.
    Yeah, I have this gigantic delusional malady which I call "being able to parse and comprehend the meaning of English sentences".

    I use this mental disorder when I read the declarations of secession from the various Southern states. And because I am delusional, I see over and over that on the topic of slavery, the federal government broke the rule of law repeatedly.

    Because I have this mental disorder of being able to read, I can see as plain as day that the utter disrespect for the rule of law is the ultimate and stated reason for secession, and that slavery is only proximately related to that reason.

    But I guess this doesn't count because I'm delusional. Good thing kids are learning to speak with emojis and all-lowercase slang - they should be completely protected from all the actual facts pro-Unionists like to ignore.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I use this mental disorder when I read the declarations of secession from the various Southern states. And because I am delusional, I see over and over that on the topic of slavery, the federal government broke the rule of law repeatedly.
    Well, yes. But, you know, when you have a paradigm shift underway which is about to lead to constitutional amendments, some civil disobedience will happen at all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.
    Fact is, Lincoln was a tyrant. Fact is, the southern states had no call to point their fingers at anyone over tyranny. Fact is, change had to come. It's a damned shame other, more evil changes like federalism came with. But power grabbers never let a good crisis go to waste.

    The fact remains that slavery is indefensible from a libertarian point of view.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-28-2018 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You decided tonight was a good night to turn the New Posts screen into the "perfect evidence" our enemies can use to convince people libertarians are all obsessed with the Civil War, trashing Lincoln and reminiscing about slavery?

    Should we look around the web for the screen shot so we know who paid you to do it?
    I decided to bump these old threads in support of a new thread about Lincoln.

    Go suck an egg.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Lincoln = tyrant. He shares the podium of big government champions with the likes of Hamilton, Wilson, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, etc Those who adore centralized power and the federal government, adore these political figureheads. Not for who they are as humans/people, but for precedent of government power and overreach they have established.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    https://panampost.com/valerie-marsma...?cn-reloaded=1

    Jonathan Blanks

    There is a strain of libertarian contrarianism that holds that the Confederate States of America were within their “rights” to secede from the Union. Such contrarianism on this particular topic is detrimental to the larger cause of liberty because the logic of this argument relies upon relinquishing individual rights to the whim of the state. Indeed, as there is no legal or moral justification for supporting the Confederacy in the Civil War, it is impossible that there could be a libertarian one.

    The legal argument against secession is straight-forward. Beyond the simple fact that most countries don’t provide for their own dissolution at the outset, the US Constitution is not silent on the use of force by the federal government. Article I Section 8 clearly grants Congress the power to put down insurrections, as the South was well aware. As recently as 1859, that power had been used by then-Union Colonel Robert E. Lee to put down John Brown’s mindless and bloody raid on Harpers Ferry.

    But to support the Declaration of Independence is to support secession. Thus, from the outset, it is nearly impossible to defend the American idea — that the people may separate themselves from an oppressive government in order to govern themselves — without accepting secession as a legitimate political action under certain circumstances, at least.

    This, however, does not necessarily mean that all secession is justified. In the Declaration, Jefferson writes, “Prudence … will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes,” necessarily implying that some separations are indeed imprudent and any such separation should be judged on its individual merits.

    A predictable and stable adherence to the Rule of Law is the indispensable tenet of any form of just government, and so the dissolution of that government must be preceded by systemic injustice or other reason that appeals to higher or natural law. Without this ordered liberty and deference to individual rights, laws cease to mean anything other than the imposition of will by man upon man.

    Because Confederate-secession defenders will not typically make arguments in favor of chattel slavery, they rely instead on the assumption that secession is an unbounded right and thus a state may leave a country for whatever reason it chooses. To accept this premise, one has to bypass moral judgment on the cause of secession, yet affirmatively assign a morality to secession as a matter of preferred political procedure — in common parlance as “states’ rights.” This turns the assumption of individual rights on its head, if the federalist procedure is to supersede the right of exit of any group or individual within that state, as the Confederacy’s slave economy unquestionably did.

    People who imagine themselves free have, in theory, a right of exit if and when they choose to separate themselves from the state in which they live. Suspending for the sake of argument the economic hardships that may entail, the right of one’s own separation — an individual secession, if you will — remains. Except in the Confederacy, where no such right existed for the slaves for which the Southern states unquestionably and proudly seceded...


    While it would be disingenuous to say that the North began the war with the intent to end slavery, it would be nothing short of delusion to say the South did not fight to preserve both slavery and the white supremacy upon which it relied.

    A war for slavery is, by definition, a fight against the individual right of exit. It takes an extraordinary leap for a libertarian to assign rights to a state which are denied to the people or an individual. Properly understood, states have powers, not rights. The fundamental tenet of rights theory is that a man or woman has property in him- or herself and that he or she voluntarily gives up only a small portion of his or her rights when joining a state. The right of exit is indeed a solemn one, but its root lies with the individual, not a body of elites and their self-interested whims.

    In nearly every other circumstance, especially dealing with war, a libertarian is often the first to ask cui bono? To whose benefit would war be? What is the real justification for this war? For nearly every other war, the arguments for war are questioned and usually debunked by libertarians, most of whom oppose war under any non-essential circumstance, often stridently. Yet, the idea that the slave-holding elite would separate itself from the rest of the nation to protect its financial interest in holding other human beings as property is, somehow — to some people who espouse the rights of the individual as sacrosanct — lumped in with a fight for freedom?

    As an aside: that most soldiers of the Confederacy didn’t have slaves or think they were fighting to preserve slavery is non sequitur. The argument against the South’s actions in the Civil War has nothing to do with the motivations of its soldiers. The blame lies with the actions of the political elite. There are many US Americans who went to fight and die in Vietnam who thought they were fighting for the preservation of liberty — when, in fact, they were fighting on an arbitrary side in a civil war that had nothing to do with the United States or its way of life. (That communism makes people less free is a truism, but I’m less convinced the people of Vietnam were better off with civilians subject to napalm attacks and a million war dead during American operations than they were under Ho Chi Minh and the more open style of communism that has defined Vietnam in the five decades hence.) It’s remarkably sad that so many died for a lie, but that doesn’t change the essence of the lie...

    The anti-libertarian results of the Civil War are evident. The federal government centralized a great deal of power in the post-war years and that sort of power is well-understood to be very dangerous to individual liberty. Yet, it is not as if the abuse of individual rights by the states ended at Appomattox. For the century following the end of Reconstruction, the southern states (and, to a lesser extent, some northern states) implemented laws and customs which systematically stripped the rights of blacks. From voting rights to freedom of contract and free association, the southern states oppressed their black citizens. This retarded the post-war southern economies — stultifying a portion of the population relegated to substandard educational accommodations and economic opportunities — despite protestations from some apologists that the market would work it all out eventually. Similarly, the Atlantic’s Ta-Nehisi Coates and Slate’s Matt Yglesias show that the economics of and rhetoric supporting the antebellum slave system were thriving, despite claims that the “peculiar institution” was dying for reasons wholly separate from the war.
    Secession was an inherent right of every state as even Lincoln acknowledged before it was inconvenient and the North had completely rejected the Constitution and the rule of law, the Confederacy had its faults that are not in dispute but they were the better side and they were in the right about the issues that were really in question.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Secession was an inherent right of every state as even Lincoln acknowledged before it was inconvenient and the North had completely rejected the Constitution and the rule of law, the Confederacy had its faults that are not in dispute but they were the better side and they were in the right about the issues that were really in question.
    Slavery was clearly in question, regardless of the attempts of revisionists to deny it. So we may assume you are in favor of slavery?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Slavery was clearly in question, regardless of the attempts of revisionists to deny it.
    It was NOT in question, Lincoln and the Republicans offered to protect it, it didn't become an issue until the North started using it as war propaganda.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So we may assume you are in favor of slavery?
    That is the exact kind of lie that is in absolute opposition to the truth that you always use.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It was NOT in question, Lincoln and the Republicans offered to protect it, it didn't become an issue until the North started using it as war propaganda.
    Oh? Then we may assume you're ignorant of the Missouri Compromise of 1850? And John Brown's escapades of 1859?

    Oh, but you're saying it was off the table because the politician who got elected on that very issue made a politician's promise. Sort of like all those Trump promises you took as gospel, and called a bunch of people stupid for not believing, which have not been kept, right?

    So you consider it impossible that millions of southerners didn't believe a politician's promise? Is that the argument?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Oh? Then we may assume you're ignorant of the Missouri Compromise of 1850? And John Brown's escapades of 1859?

    Oh, but you're saying it was off the table because the politician who got elected on that very issue made a politician's promise. Sort of like all those Trump promises you took as gospel, and called a bunch of people stupid for not believing, which have not been kept, right?

    So you consider it impossible that millions of southerners didn't believe a politician's promise? Is that the argument?
    Read and learn, there was going to be a Constitutional Amendment to protect slavery:

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post


    “He never contemplated with any degree of substantiation the prospect of a free negro race living in the same country as a free white race”
    Lincoln Authority Roy Basler

    Lincoln fighter of equality? Or White Supremacist

    “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
    -Abraham Lincoln, First Lincoln-Douglas Debate, Ottawa, Illinois, Sept. 18, 1858, in The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln vol.3, pp. 145-146.

    “I agree with Judge Douglas he [African Americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment.”
    -1858 Abraham Lincoln Response to Supreme court Dread Scott ruling

    The Lincoln of myth is viewed as a friend to blacks and equality to all. Yet He was a white supremacist who viewed blacks as a inferior race, the inferiority of Mexicans and Indians, and the removal of natives from their lands. Lincoln rather compulsively used the N-word both in private and public, was a huge fan of "black face" minstrel shows, was famous for his racist jokes; and many of his White House appointees were shocked at his racist language. According to African American historian Lerone Bennett, Jr In his book Forced into Glory Abraham Lincoln's White Dream. Lincoln stated publicly that "America was made for the White people and not for the Negroes" he called the declaration of independence “The white man's charter of freedom” and At least twenty-one times Lincoln said publicly that he was opposed to equal rights for Blacks. He said he was against equal rights for negroes because “My own feeling will not admit this. [ negro equality]” He spoke often of “slaves as cattle.”

    “Lincoln never pretended to be a racial liberal or a social innovator. He said repeatedly , in public and in private, that he believed in white supremacy”
    -African American historian Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

    He feared whites and blacks interbreeding and on June 26 1857 he was “Horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races” saying and god has “made us separate” from the black race. Lincolns friend Ward Lamon said “In words and deeds postponed the interests of the blacks to the interest of the whites, and expressly subordinated the one to the other.” African American and former slave Fredrick Douglass at one time said Lincoln had “contempt for the negro”.

    “Lincoln was not either our man or our model...in his interests, associations, thoughts and in his prejudices, he was a white man. Entirely devoted to the welfare of white men”
    -Fredrick Douglass speech given years after Lincolns Assassination.

    Lincoln In Illinois

    “I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
    -Abraham Lincoln

    “I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[ Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
    -Abraham Lincoln

    Over two decades in the state of Illinois as a lawyer and politician he never once said a word in favor of abolitionist, the abolish movement, or black rights. He never spoke out against the many unjust laws of the state that did not allow blacks to gather in large numbers, learn to read, or even play percussion instruments. In 1848 he supported the Illinois state law of not allowing any blacks to migrate to the state and not allowing blacks citizenship. Abolitionist and even a southern newspapers spoke out against the law. 1836 Tuesday Jan 5 Lincoln was among the voters 36-16 to not allow blacks the right to vote. He voted for a state law that taxed blacks without representation. On may 15 1840 Lincoln attacked Martin Van buren for his support for NY free Negroes the right to vote. In 1858 Lincoln refused to sigh a bill that would allow blacks to testify against whites in court.

    “His democracy... was a white mans democracy. It did not contain negroes”
    -Oscar Sherwin


    Lincoln helped in court defend the fugitive slave law, while abolitionist in the 50's were condemning the fugitive slave laws. Between 1854-1860 Lincoln publically supported the laws fugitive slave laws 20 times. On August 28 1854 in Carrolton Illinois Lincoln even spoke “Against the repeal of the fugitive slave law”. Later in his Peoria speech he denied that he ever asked for a repeal or modification of the law. Lincoln went so far as to write letters to republicans in other states, supporting the fugitive slave law. Nathaniel Stevens said Lincoln had a “Whole hearted one might say, serene, support of the fugitive slave law”.

    Abolitionist Republicans in Davenport Iowa said Lincoln “Clogged and inbeded the wheels and movements of the revolution.” In 1848 in a speech in Massachusetts Lincoln said “I have heard you have abolitionist here. We have a few in Illinois and we shot one the other day”. [Referring to death of Elijah Lovejoy] Whitney said he “Abhorred abolitionist” Ward Lamon said he was “Steady though quietly opponent of abolitionist”. He went to great lengths to dissociate himself from the abolitionist movement of the state. Donald Riddle a authority on Lincoln said “he did not make any attempt to advocate or support anti slavery or abolitionist messages”. In 1855 Elected officials like Owen Lovejoy gave abolitionist speeches, meanwhile at the same time Lincoln was endorsing shipping free blacks to Africa. Lovejoy said he would not obey the Fugitive slave law that Lincoln had supported. 36 speeches were given while Lincoln was in Illinois about slavery, not one was by Lincoln.

    “Wherin did he show himself radical?[abolitionist] What new measure did he start? where did he show progress?”
    -“Long John” Wentworth a Illinois abolitionist said of Lincoln

    ”Slavery will be as safe, and safer, in the union under such a president, than it can be under any president of a southern confederacy”
    -Fredrick Douglass on the election of Abraham Lincoln 1860

    Lincoln the Abolitionist?


    “I have said a hundred times, and I have now no inclination to take it back, that I believe there is no right, and ought to be no inclination in the people of the free States to enter into the slave States, and interfere with the question of slavery at all.”
    -Abraham Lincoln 1858

    “I wish to make and to keep the distinction between the existing institution, and the extension of it, so broad, and so clear, that no honest man can misunderstand me, and no dishonest one, successfully misrepresent me.
    -Abraham Lincoln 1854

    Lincoln was never considered a abolitionist, he was against immediate abolition. He never intended to interfere with slavery where it already existed, only the extension of out into the west. He was not against slavery in the south, but the expansion of slavery into the west. He did not want the west to become “An asylum for slaves and *******,” he also was against slavery's expansion out west so to not interfere with “free white labor”.

    "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
    -Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854

    “It is not rather our duty to make labor more respectable by preserving all black competition, [free and slave] especially in the territories”
    -Abraham Lincoln

    Lincoln was said to be “quit” about the issue of slavery unlike the abolitionist in his party. When asked if he minded having abolitionist in his party Lincoln said “As long as I'm not tarred with the abolitionist brush.” Those who knew Lincoln in the white house spoke of Lincolns thoughts about abolitionist. Lincolns close friend General James Wadsworth said the welfare of the negroes “Didn't enter into his policy at all”. Donn Piatt said Lincoln “Laughed at the abolitionist as a disturbing element easily controlled”. Eli Thayer said Lincoln spoke of abolitionist “In terms of contempt and derision”. Abolitionist Sumner said of Lincoln “He does not know how to help or is not moved to help” and “I do not remember that I have had any help from him... he has no instinct or inspiration”. Many early historians blame Lincoln for “Ignored the greatest moral question of the time”.

    “Not a abolitionist, hardly an anti slavery man”
    -Abolitionist Wendell Phillips of Abraham Lincoln

    When union general John Fremont emancipated slaves in union occupied Missouri, Lincoln recalled the orders and relived Fremont of his command. When union general David Hunter ordered general order number 11, declaring all slaves in SC/GA/FL to be “forever free” Lincoln revoked the proclamation and also ordered Hunter to disband the 1st South Carolina regiment made up of blacks hunter had enlisted. Late in 62 Lincoln supported in union held territory in VA and LA to continue slavery and allow the slave owners peacefully back into the union. In 1861 Mark Neely JR wrote “He more than once actually forced others who were trying to free slaves to cease doings”. Lincolns wife Mary, was from a slave owning family in Kentucky.

    “He was opposed to slavery more because it was a public nuance than because of its injustice to the oppressed black man”
    -John Hume


    In 1848 as a congressmen Lincoln voted against a bill along with the entire south and pro slavery men that proposed an end to the slave trade in D.C. In 1849 Lincoln offered a compromise that was rejected. Section 4 of that compromise made clear no slave would be free [one version] until 1914. Section 5 expanded the fugitive slave law. The radical abolitionist at The Liberator editorial on July 13, 1860 Called Lincoln “The slave hound of Illinois” for his effort to expand the fugitive slave law into the district of Columbia.

    As Lerone Bennett JR argues in Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream. Lincoln has received the glory that abolitionist white, black, citizens, newspaper editors, churches congressmen, and pastors had worked decades for. Men who Lincolns contemporaries named as the major abolitionist men like Senator Sumner, senator Lymon Trushbull, Congressmen Stevens, Salmon Chase, Wendell Phillips etc they deserve the glory that is falsely given to Lincoln. The 37Th congress were the ones who abolished slavery in the territories and authorized black troops.

    “The president is indefatigable in his efforts to save slavery”
    -Adam Gurowski August 1862

    Abraham Lincoln the Great Emancipator? The Emancipation Proclamation

    “Never did a man achieve more fame for what he did not do and for what he never intended to do”
    - Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

    “To forestall a more revolutionary move against slavery...foreseeing he could not resits antislavery pressure much longer...using every weapon at his command to slow down, sidetrack or stop the emancipation flow”
    -Steven Oates With menace Towards none the Life of Abraham Lincoln

    The emancipation proclamation was given at a low point for the north near the end of 62. It was not designed to free slaves, it did not free a single slave, Lincoln himself knew it would not make the slaves free. It applied only to confederate controlled areas, not northern slave states or north controlled confederate area/states such as much of LA and VA. In fact all a confederate state had to do to not have this apply was rejoin the union , with slavery intact. The US Secretary of the state William Seward said of the emancipation proclamation “Where he could, he didn't. Where he did, he couldn't”.

    “It was only on the basis of military necessity that Abraham Lincoln was able to implement the emancipation proclamation”.
    -The untold civil war National Geographic James Robertson

    The proclamation was given by Lincoln for a few reasons, the first was as a war measure. “As a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion.” The war was lasting longer than anticipated and northern abolitionist and hard war democrats put tremendous pressure on Lincoln threatening to withhold men, material and support for the war unless Lincoln hit the south where it would hurt them, slaves. Lincoln and his cabinet were concerned a rebellion would start in the north if they did not do something towards emancipation. The proclamation would end with the war and any slave freed by it would become subject to local state laws. The document did not deal with the institution of slavery at all. Lincoln constantly wrote it was “Merely a war measure” and “Have effect only from its being a exercise of war power”. Lincolns stated “It would have no effect upon the children of the slaves born hereafter.” A second reason was To keep England and France out of the war. If the war had a abolitionist objective, that would force England and France to be neutral. Also to encourage slave revolts in the south. This was seen by some in Europe as its clear objective. To encourage slaves to rise up, kill their woman and children masters in a revolt while the men were fighting at the front, was immoral.

    “For a length of time it had been hoped that the rebellion could be suppressed without resorting to it [emancipation] as a military measure”
    -Abraham Lincoln The collective works

    Lincoln said of the emancipation proclamation “I am driven to it.” Close friends said Lincoln “Abhorred” and had “reluctance” about issuing the emancipation. Nathan Stevenson said it was “Not choice” that it was issued by Lincoln, but Lincoln was pressured to do something from the abolitionist in the party such as the Governor of Massachusetts [who threatened to stop support of the war] Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts Representative Thaddeus Stevens etc. Charles Sumner said god and history forced Lincolns Hand. Radical governors had set up a meeting for September the 24th with a plan to withhold war support and some to call Lincoln to resign. Lincoln knowing of this meeting and the growing radical support among congress, governors and the people, issued the proclamation just two days before. Lincoln called the proclamation a “civil necessity to prevent the radicals from embarrassing the government.” In a meeting trying to sell his colonization plan to the border sates representatives, Lincoln said on July 12 “The pressure in this direction [intimidate emancipation] is still upon me, and is increasing”.

    “The patriots of both houses... the American people whipped MR. Lincoln into the glory of having issued the emancipation proclamation”
    -Diary of Adam Gurowski NY 1862-1866

    The emancipation proclamation was actually “Regressive” in terms of abolition. On July17 1862 congress passed the second confiscation act. This act freed all rebel slaves “property” within the confederacy to be “forever free.” Later on Sep 22 1862 Lincoln sighed the preliminary emancipation nullifying the emancipation act of congress, re-enslaving slaves. It did not touch the slaves within the slave states in the union, It did not free any slave the confiscation act would not have. It was a conservative reaction to the radical abolitionist in congress.

    “The proclamation had as its purpose and effect the checking of the radical [abolitionist] program”
    -Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

    The D.C emancipation bill in 1862 was given to Lincoln who than held on to it for two days so a friend from KY could leave D.C with his two slaves. Lincoln regretted the intimidate emancipation of D.C slaves instead he wanted gradual release because “That now families would at once be deprived of cooks, stable boys and their protectors without any provision for them.”

    “When he entered his presidency... that before his term of office would expire, he would be hailed as “The great emancipator” he would have treated the statement as equal one of his jokes”
    -John Hume The Abolitionist NY 1905

    The 13th Amendment And The 13th Amendment You Have Never Heard Of

    The original 13th amendment was called the Corwin amendment, one that Lincoln pushed to get passed. It would forever allow slavery in America and would make it unconstitutional for the federal government to abolish it.

    No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State,, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

    In his first inaugural address Lincoln stated on the Corwin amendment

    “Holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable".
    -Abraham Lincoln

    He then sent a letter to the governor of each state transmitting the approved amendment for what he hoped would be ratification and noting that his predecessor, President James Buchanan, had also endorsed it. He told New York Senator William Seward, who would become his secretary of state, to push the amendment through the U.S. Senate. He also instructed Seward to get a federal law passed that would repeal the personal liberty laws in some of the Northern states that were used by those states to nullify the federal Fugitive Slave Act, which Lincoln strongly supported.


    Today's 13th amendment that abolishes slavery Lincoln had less to do with, This is from Spielberg's Upside-Down History: The Myth of Lincoln and the Thirteenth Amendment

    “Harvard University Professor David H. Donald, the recipient of several Pulitzer prizes for his historical writings, including a biography of Lincoln. David Donald is the preeminent Lincoln scholar of our time on page 545 of his magnus opus, Lincoln, Donald notes that Lincoln did discuss the Thirteenth Amendment with two members of Congress – James M. Ashley of Ohio and James S. Rollins of Missouri. But if he used "means of persuading congressmen to vote for the Thirteeth Amendment," the theme of the Spielberg movie, "his actions are not recorded. Conclusions about the President's role rested on gossip . . . Moreover, there is not a shred of evidence that even one Democratic member of Congress changed his vote on the Thirteenth Amendment (which had previously been defeated) because of Lincoln's actions. Donald documents that Lincoln was told that some New Jersey Democrats could possibly be persuaded to vote for the amendment "if he could persuade [Senator] Charles Sumner to drop a bill to regulate the Camden & Amboy [New Jersey] Railroad, but he declined to intervene". "One New Jersey Democrat," writes David Donald, "well known as a lobbyist for the Camden & Amboy, who had voted against the amendment in July, did abstain in the final vote, but it cannot be proved that Lincoln influenced his change". Thus, according to the foremost authority on Lincoln, there is no evidence at all that Lincoln influenced even a single vote in the U.S. House of Representatives”.Lincoln late in the war being pressured to support the 13th amendment from abolitionist within his party also supported the amendment.

    Shortly before his death Lincoln said of the 13th amendment “He never would have done it, if he had not been compelled by necessary to do it, to maintain the union”. Missouri abolitionist John Hume said of Lincoln “The president was in constant opposition” to the abolitionist movement of Chase, Sumner, Stevens, Greeley and others.

    Send Them Back To Africa

    "What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races,"
    -Abraham Lincoln Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 2, p. 521 17 July 1858

    “If all earthly power were given to me...my first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, to their own native land”
    -Abraham Lincoln 1854

    Lincoln allocated millions of federal dollars to be used for his African colonization plan to send the future freed slaves back to Africa. He either wanted them deported or in their own all black state. While in the White House he held a meeting with free blacks, he asked them to lead by example for future freed slaves and go to Africa. He stated to them

    "You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence.... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated."
    -Abraham Lincoln, speech to a group of black freedmen in Washington D.C., August 1862

    As a member of the Illinois legislature Lincoln urged the legislature "to appropriate money for colonization in order to remove Negroes from the state and prevent miscegenation" 1853 Lincoln gave a speeches to the Springfield colonization society whose goal was to send blacks back to Africa. Lincoln said his colonization plan would “free slaveholders from the troublesome presence of free Negroes.” When pushing for his colonization plan [that he admitted would be difficult] he said “Where there is a will there is a way” that he would push because of a “moral sense and self interest”.

    “On no other matter did he so far extend his presidential leadership...one can hardly find any subject on which Lincoln argued and pleaded more constantly than on this”
    -J.G Randall Lincoln historian

    His plan called for three major parts. Gradual emancipation, compensation, [for slave owners] and finally colonization to Africa or south America. After the emancipation proclamation Lincoln made clear deportation was connected with emancipation. His Friend Henry Whitney said there was nothing besides preserving the union, that Lincoln felt more important. Friend and bodyguard Ward Lamon said Lincoln “Zealously and persistent devised plans for the deportation of the negro.” Others said he was “persistent” “Motivated” and “wished to send the Negros away.”

    “Following the preliminary proclamation, and as part of the plan. Was the deportation and colonization of the colored race”
    -Gideon Welles Diary NY 1911

    In 1861 Lincoln tried to pay $500 to the northern slave states for each slave to be colonized within the USA. In his first state of the union address he suggested free blacks be included in his colonization plan when he said “ It might be well to consider, too, whether the free colored people already in the United States could not, so far as individuals may desire, be included in such colonization.” On Dec 1 1862 Lincoln called for three constitutional amendments for gradual emancipation, compensation and colonization. Compensation to owners so long as they freed slaves by 1900. On Dec 31 1862 Lincoln signed a contract to send 500 American born Negroes to an island of the cost of Hati. It ended disastrous for the negroes 150 of them died, the rest were brought back to America.

    “Mr Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery...Mr Lincoln is urging his colonization scheme.. shows his bigotry his pride of race and contempt for negroes”
    -Fredrick Douglass The Life and Writings of Fredrick Douglass

    What African American historian Bennett calls Lincolns “white dream” was his work as president to deport all blacks from America. Until his death Lincoln negotiated with great Britain and others to deport the would be freed slaves.

    See
    Colonization After Emancipation: Lincoln and the Movement for Black Resettlement by Phillip W. Magness
    http://www.amazon.com/Colonization-A.../dp/0826219098
    Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream by Lerone Bennett, Jr
    http://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Gl.../dp/0874850851

    “His belief that the white and colored races could not occupy the same nation in peace”
    -Henery Whitney Life on the circuit with Lincoln 1892


    Main references

    -Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream by Lerone Bennett JR Johnson publishing Company Chicago reprint 2000
    -The Real Lincoln Thomas J Dilorenzo Three Rivers press NY NY 2002
    - Lincoln Unmasked what your not suppose to know about Dishonest Abe Thomas J Dilorenzo Three rivers Press Crown Forum 2006
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Go suck an egg.
    Such a boon to the level of discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is the exact kind of lie that is in absolute opposition to the truth that you always use.
    If you admit I always tell the truth, then I guess the lie you're talking about is your own?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Read and learn, there was going to be a Constitutional Amendment to protect slavery:
    Yeah, sure their was. A nation in which the majority opposed it was going to amend the constitution to allow something the constitution already allowed.

    Naturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Such a boon to the level of discourse.





    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    If you admit I always tell the truth, then I guess the lie you're talking about is your own?
    You lie all the time, you are a contender for the title of "biggest liar on RPF"



    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    IYeah, sure their was. A nation in which the majority opposed it was going to amend the constitution to allow something the constitution already allowed.

    Naturally.
    Just like a nation where the majority drank passed a Prohibition Amendment, the people don't get a voice in Constitutional Amendments and politicians cut deals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You lie all the time, you are a contender for the title of "biggest liar on RPF"
    Yet another guideline violation quoted where you can't edit it.

    And that's a true statement, you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Yet another guideline violation quoted where you can't edit it.

    And that's a true statement, you know.
    I can prove you lie blatantly with quotes that you can't edit.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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