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Thread: Barnum and Bailey shutting down

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Gosh we have laws about "murder, stealing, assault, kidnapping, etc., etc." and the citizenry aren't permitted to break them unless they wear the uniform of the lawmakers....

    Which only goes to substantiate your might makes right assertion....

    I don't believe that the color of your tunic or the design on your medallion grants one special powers but those with the might would contradict me...
    I agree with you and AF that "might makes right" is happening. But just because something is happening doesn't mean that it is the true way. As NC put it, there's a difference between what is legal and what is lawful.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I agree with you and AF that "might makes right" is happening. But just because something is happening doesn't mean that it is the true way. As NC put it, there's a difference between what is legal and what is lawful.
    Now you must specify lawful by God or lawful by man....

    Every time you use the phrase...

    And.....................Given today's 'diversity' you probably ought to specify The Trinity so as not to confound things....

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Now you must specify lawful by God or lawful by man....

    Every time you use the phrase...

    And.....................Given today's 'diversity' you probably ought to specify The Trinity so as not to confound things....

    Well, I agree with NC, but I don't usually phrase it the way he does… Because as you said, the word "lawful" can easily be misunderstood unless one is specific.

    I'm going to post a quote by MLK Jr, from his letters from a Birmingham jail.


    One may well ask, “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “An unjust law is no law at all.”

    Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Well, I agree with NC, but I don't usually phrase it the way he does… Because as you said, the word "lawful" can easily be misunderstood unless one is specific.

    I'm going to post a quote by MLK Jr, from his letters from a Birmingham jail.


    One may well ask, “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “An unjust law is no law at all.”

    Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law.
    Sooooo,

    After all that how do you or MLK square killing, stealing and kidnapping with the statists favorite Romans 13?

    I'm talking about humans now not critters.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Sooooo,

    After all that how do you or MLK square killing, stealing and kidnapping with the statists favorite Romans 13?

    I'm talking about humans now not critters.
    Annnd beat me to it.

    I'd like to hear that as well.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Sooooo,

    After all that how do you or MLK square killing, stealing and kidnapping with the statists favorite Romans 13?

    I'm talking about humans now not critters.
    I think that Romans 13 is misunderstood and misapplied by many.

    Chuck Baldwin did an article on this. I'll see if I can find it. But I'll probably do this later because I need to start cooking dinner soon.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post

    Now you must specify lawful by God or lawful by man....

    Every time you use the phrase...
    I'm of the position that this should be done every single time anyway.

    I'd also add that Liberty should never be mentioned absent the word responsibility. Liberty-Responsibility. This acknowledges Natural Law as the primary foundation for moral code which is itself the primary foundation for proper man-to-man/government-to-man relations and libertarianism itself.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 05-23-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    An animal is not a car. An animal is not a TV set. An animal is a living being, and the ones we've been talking about have sentience, emotions, and a strong will to live.

    I want for us to get somewhere here, but it's difficult when you refuse to answer certain questions about your personal view.

    I hope you don't get mad at me, but I'll try again. Do you personally believe it is immoral to abuse or torture an animal? Yes or no?
    No, I'm not gonna get mad, we're just having a discussion.

    Immoral?

    No, no more immoral than abusing or destroying any other piece of your own property.

    Not smart financially, illegal in some districts, but not "immoral".



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I think that Romans 13 is misunderstood and misapplied by many.

    Chuck Baldwin did an article on this. I'll see if I can find it. But I'll probably do this later because I need to start cooking dinner soon.
    Is this it?

    http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin773.htm

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post



    Originally Posted by lilymc

    Do you personally believe it is immoral to abuse or torture an animal? Yes or no?

    Immoral?

    No...

    Dear lily and Anti Federalist,


    Is there a difference between immoral and anti-moral? If so, then, how so? If not, then, why not?


    Regards,

    Natty C.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 05-23-2017 at 07:31 PM.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I'm of the position that this should be done every single time anyway.

    I'd also add that Liberty should never be mentioned absent the word responsibility. Liberty-Responsibility. This acknowledges Natural Law as the primary foundation for moral code which is itself the primary foundation for proper man-to-man/government-to-man relations and libertarianism itself.
    It would be nice if Liberty and responsibility were interrelated but they are not. Everyone has a God given right to Liberty, even those who don't understand or exercise responsibility. To put ANY qualifier to "Liberty" is to defeat it entirely. All one has to do to violate someone's liberty would be to claim they are acting irresponsibly.

    No, they have the right to be entirely irresponsible and if their actions affect me then I have a right to respond as I see fit. If they hurt me or my family I will act. Think this changes because you have goons in blue and goons in black robes?? It does not!! I will still act if someone crosses some line in the sand and the goons be damned...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  14. #132

  15. #133
    Social Media Happy Shot Elephant Crushed a Hunter to Death

    http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017...nter-to-death/

    A hunting expedition went seriously wrong in Zimbabwe on Friday when South African big game hunter Theunis Botha was crushed to death by a charging elephant, after it was shot by a fellow hunter.

    Botha, better known for his prowess as a leopard and lion hunter, led hunting excursions with his company Game and Hounds Safaris. The 51-year-old father of five paid the ultimate price by choosing to lead a safari to hunt wild elephants, when he mistakenly steered his party into a herd of breeding pachyderms.

    One elephant charged the hunters and surprised Botha by picking him up with his trunk, reported the Daily Wire. A fellow hunter shot the several-ton creature to save Botha, but it crashed to the ground and crushed Botha to death.

    Many who knew Botha described him as a “passionate and professional hunting pioneer,” and paid tribute to him on his company’s website:

    “RIP Theunis Botha. Our heartfelt condolences to Carike and family. He was a great man! So sad!”

    “A legend has fallen but will never be forgotten… It’s with a sad heart that we say goodbye to you Oom Theunis Botha.”

    “Our deepest condolences to the family. May God be with you all in this difficult time.”

    Botha’s daughter posted pictures of her father, including one of them together after shooting a gazelle a few years back.



    The hunter had his detractors as well. Commenters posting on his 2012 YouTube safari video (below), demonstrated their glee that Botha was killed. ”Karma took care of you!,” “Hey a**hole. I hope you rot in hell,” and “I am super glad he got what was coming to him,” commenters wrote.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    It would be nice if Liberty and responsibility were interrelated but they are not. Everyone has a God given right to Liberty, even those who don't understand or exercise responsibility. To put ANY qualifier to "Liberty" is to defeat it entirely. All one has to do to violate someone's liberty would be to claim they are acting irresponsibly.

    No, they have the right to be entirely irresponsible and if their actions affect me then I have a right to respond as I see fit. If they hurt me or my family I will act. Think this changes because you have goons in blue and goons in black robes?? It does not!! I will still act if someone crosses some line in the sand and the goons be damned...
    A better way to look at: Liberty is owning the consequences of one's behavior, whether natural or supernatural, like AF's elephant hunter post prior.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I agree with most of what you said here. But, in reply to your second sentence… I wouldn't put it that way. There are many people who are trying to live according to God's law. Of course they often miss the mark, but overall they've surrendered to a higher law that they did not "write," so to speak.
    But even each man's interpretation of "God's law" is written in the heart of that particular man. We do not know what "God's law" is and so we each determine what it is based on our own mind and spirit. Sure, we have the Bible (and others have their "book") but who wrote those?? We believe that God himself had some hand in the writing but really, we all KNOW that it was written by men, right?? God did not magically write down a bunch of words and bind them up in a nice book for us to read. These are collections of writings that we believe were "inspired" by a spiritual connection to our Creator and most were (in my opinion). I outright reject some of them, I accept a good percentage of them, and have questions about others... Ultimately, it is I who determines what "God's law" is in my life.
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    But even each man's interpretation of "God's law" is written in the heart of that particular man. We do not know what "God's law" is and so we each determine what it is based on our own mind and spirit. Sure, we have the Bible (and others have their "book") but who wrote those?? We believe that God himself had some hand in the writing but really, we all KNOW that it was written by men, right?? God did not magically write down a bunch of words and bind them up in a nice book for us to read. These are collections of writings that we believe were "inspired" by a spiritual connection to our Creator and most were (in my opinion). I outright reject some of them, I accept a good percentage of them, and have questions about others... Ultimately, it is I who determines what "God's law" is in my life.
    For most Christians that practice the actual teachings of Christ, this is God's Law-

    Jesus*said unto him,*Thou shalt love the Lord thy God*with all thy heart, and with all thy*soul, and with all thy*mind. This is the first and*greatcommandment. And the second is like unto it,*Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments*hang*all the law and the*prophets.



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Indian View Post
    For most Christians that practice the actual teachings of Christ, this is God's Law-

    Jesus*said unto him,*Thou shalt love the Lord thy God*with all thy heart, and with all thy*soul, and with all thy*mind. This is the first and*greatcommandment. And the second is like unto it,*Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments*hang*all the law and the*prophets.

    Ummm, yeah... I'd like to follow "the actual teaching of Christ" too. I'm just not 100% sure what they are. Oh, you tell me they are in "the Bible"? Which version do you feel is the one that God himself authored? Was it in the king's English or Aramaic or Hebrew? Do I need to learn all of those languages or do I have to "trust" interpreters? Are the dead sea scrolls the "official" God written originals or some other scroll?

    I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. "Christians" (and I'm one) are some of the worst people in understanding how things get changed over time and 2000-5000 years is a very LONG time...

    I'm not trying to shake any Christians' belief in "the Bible" but really, I hope that people use their God given logic in analyzing what they are being told by church "leaders". Everyone has an agenda (Pope, preachers, ministers, teachers, scientists) and consciously or unconsciously they can and do distort things they read or observe in nature to meet their agenda goals.
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    No, I'm not gonna get mad, we're just having a discussion.

    Immoral?

    No, no more immoral than abusing or destroying any other piece of your own property.

    Not smart financially, illegal in some districts, but not "immoral".
    You can continue to pretend that an elephant, or a pig or a dog is the same as an inanimate object… but regardless of what the law says, we all know that's not true. The law also said that black slaves were "property." You guys didn't answer this question earlier, so I'll ask again. Were those involuntary slaves truly property, apart from what the law said?

    IMO this sounds like "might makes right."

    And I think we all know what happens when humans have that mentality. I don't want to judge or making anyone feel bad, I do feel it's important to ask this question... If we don't want to be treated that way, why do we do the same to those we have power over?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Indian View Post
    For most Christians that practice the actual teachings of Christ, this is God's Law-

    Jesus*said unto him,*Thou shalt love the Lord thy God*with all thy heart, and with all thy*soul, and with all thy*mind. This is the first and*greatcommandment. And the second is like unto it,*Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments*hang*all the law and the*prophets.
    Amen! That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say to him. I like to keep things simple.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by navy-vet View Post
    Hi! That's not the article I had read before… But he does speak about Romans 13 a lot in several different places. I also saw a video yesterday of a talk he did on that. I could post it here, but it's very long… So instead I'll try to post an article later. I really shouldn't be posting here right now, I've got a ton of things I'm supposed be doing today.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  24. #141
    I fear I may never smell an elephant again.

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The law also said that black slaves were "property." You guys didn't answer this question earlier, so I'll ask again. Were those involuntary slaves truly property, apart from what the law said?
    At the time black slaves were 'property' (I wasn't alive) both the slave and the owner viewed the arrangement as such, ie; the slave belonged to the master.

    Whether the slave liked the arrangement isn't what you asked, you did ask how I viewed the arrangement and I clearly stated that I wasn't party to it so I obviously have no take on the issue besides reviewing history.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Ummm, yeah... I'd like to follow "the actual teaching of Christ" too. I'm just not 100% sure what they are. Oh, you tell me they are in "the Bible"? Which version do you feel is the one that God himself authored? Was it in the king's English or Aramaic or Hebrew? Do I need to learn all of those languages or do I have to "trust" interpreters? Are the dead sea scrolls the "official" God written originals or some other scroll?

    I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. "Christians" (and I'm one) are some of the worst people in understanding how things get changed over time and 2000-5000 years is a very LONG time...

    I'm not trying to shake any Christians' belief in "the Bible" but really, I hope that people use their God given logic in analyzing what they are being told by church "leaders". Everyone has an agenda (Pope, preachers, ministers, teachers, scientists) and consciously or unconsciously they can and do distort things they read or observe in nature to meet their agenda goals.
    You have nailed the problem with Sola Sripturism and general Bible/Scripture-worship. It's always ultimately self-serving when done outside the disciplined context of Holy Tradition. One of the reasons I'm Orthodox. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    At the time black slaves were 'property' (I wasn't alive) both the slave and the owner viewed the arrangement as such, ie; the slave belonged to the master.

    Whether the slave liked the arrangement isn't what you asked, you did ask how I viewed the arrangement and I clearly stated that I wasn't party to it so I obviously have no take on the issue besides reviewing history.
    That was what the law said, but my question was, was that really true… apart from the law? I don't believe that you have to be party to something to have a belief one way or the other.

    Let me try asking this in a different way. If our government decided to round up and enslave all libertarians, and call them "property"....and you happened to be one of the people rounded up and enslaved... Would you agree that you are truly "property" apart from what the law said? In other words, that you were no different than an inanimate object and anything at all could be done to you, and it would be moral and acceptable, simply because they claimed that you are "property"?
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That was what the law said, but my question was, was that really true… apart from the law? I don't believe that you have to be party to something to have a belief one way or the other.

    Let me try asking this in a different way. If our government decided to round up and enslave all libertarians, and call them "property"....and you happened to be one of the people rounded up and enslaved... Would you agree that you are truly "property" apart from what the law said? In other words, that you were no different than an inanimate object and anything at all could be done to you, and it would be moral and acceptable, simply because they claimed that you are "property"?
    I'm not going to play "what-if"....

    Ask today's slave or master if they agree with or abide by their arrangement because it's truly the way they view it...

    This discussion is getting really silly, slaves were property, both the master and slave agreed on that fact even if the slave didn't like it and "the law" did have bearing on their beliefs, but like today, not always on their actions.

    And none of this even remotely pertains to livestock today.....

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm not going to play "what-if"....

    Ask today's slave or master if they agree with or abide by their arrangement because it's truly the way they view it...

    This discussion is getting really silly, slaves were property, both the master and slave agreed on that fact even if the slave didn't like it and "the law" did have bearing on their beliefs, but like today, not always on their actions.

    And none of this even remotely pertains to livestock today.....
    I don't think it's silly at all, we're really just discussing whether a man-made law means something is actually true. This isn't that difficult. But if you don't want to discuss it then that's totally fine.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I don't think it's silly at all, we're really just discussing whether a man-made law means something is actually true. This isn't that difficult. But if you don't want to discuss it then that's totally fine.
    Man made "law" simply defines what is legal, it has NOTHING to do with what's right or wrong...

    That's paraphrased from a lawyer I once knew a few decades back....

    * Are you juxtaposing "true" for right, as in right or wrong?

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Man made "law" simply defines what is legal, it has NOTHING to do with what's right or wrong...

    That's paraphrased from a lawyer I once knew a few decades back....

    * Are you juxtaposing "true" for right, as in right or wrong?
    The reason I use the word "true" is because we were talking about the government labeling something "property." That is either a true statement, or it is not.

    But I'm glad that you agree that the law is simply what is legal, not what is true, right, or acceptable.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Ummm, yeah... I'd like to follow "the actual teaching of Christ" too. I'm just not 100% sure what they are. Oh, you tell me they are in "the Bible"? Which version do you feel is the one that God himself authored? Was it in the king's English or Aramaic or Hebrew? Do I need to learn all of those languages or do I have to "trust" interpreters? Are the dead sea scrolls the "official" God written originals or some other scroll?

    I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. "Christians" (and I'm one) are some of the worst people in understanding how things get changed over time and 2000-5000 years is a very LONG time...

    I'm not trying to shake any Christians' belief in "the Bible" but really, I hope that people use their God given logic in analyzing what they are being told by church "leaders". Everyone has an agenda (Pope, preachers, ministers, teachers, scientists) and consciously or unconsciously they can and do distort things they read or observe in nature to meet their agenda goals.

    LOL I hear ya. I dont care much for the teachings of the official church.

    My motto is simple, love people, love God, carry on. I get stupid l, misbehave, and screw one of those up, I ask forgiveness and go at it again.

    People make being a Christian too hard. I prefer to leave that to Islam and The Jews lol.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    The reason I use the word "true" is because we were talking about the government labeling something "property." That is either a true statement, or it is not.

    But I'm glad that you agree that the law is simply what is legal, not what is true, right, or acceptable.
    The government has decreed "somethings" are property, yes that is true.

    They even differentiate between classes of property, ie; "real property" "personal property" "business personal property" "livestock" etc...

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