Barnum and Bailey shutting down

[lilymc]

Pets?

#triggered!

How dare you lecture us, when you are enslaving and torturing your own animals.

You are worse than Hitler.





Rutgers law professors say pets are ‘animal slaves,’ argue domestication is form of torture

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...nimal-slaves-/

Two Rutgers University law professors have published an essay making a “case against pets,” arguing that domestication of animals is a form of torture that is morally and ethically wrong.

Despite living with six rescue dogs, professors Gary Francione and Anna Charlton describe their pets as “non-human refugees,” according to an article they published on Aeon.co this month.

“Although we love them very much, we strongly believe that they should not have existed in the first place,” the couple wrote. “We oppose domestication and pet ownership because these violate the fundamental rights of animals.

“When we talk about animal rights, we are talking primarily about one right: the right not to be property,” they continued. “We all reject human chattel slavery. That is not to say that it doesn’t still exist. It does. But no one defends it.”

(Gee whiz, where have I heard THAT argument before???? - AF)

The professors argued that the way animals for food are treated would be considered torture if people endured the same treatment.

lol. That is one of the reasons I usually don't call myself a vegan. Even though I don't eat meat and dairy, many vegans hold beliefs I disagree with… beliefs that are unbiblical… For that reason, as well as some other reasons, I usually just say 'plant-based.'

[Natural Citizen]

...many vegans hold beliefs I disagree with… beliefs that are unbiblical…

Whew. What a relief. Because this one wants the government to execute meat eaters. She says people should be forced to be vegan at the barrel of a government gun and that they should be killed if they refuse. Jiminy crickets, gawd dang.

[Anti Federalist]

Do you honestly believe that a good God would create animals who can suffer and feel pain, who have a strong desire to live and enjoy life.... for the purpose of being caged and tortured and eaten? No, that's not God's original design. At least not according to the Bible, and imo to common sense and intuition.

He created us, and a human's life can be nothing but a roadmap of pain and misery.

A "good God" created a world in which eight year old children die in pain and agony from cancers and disease, or get blown to bloody pieces by people who say your good God is the wrong good God, and you better worship their good God, or else.

If God cared so much about animal suffering, why did he not "waive" the burnt offerings required after original sin?

I understand that God can be harsh, judgmental and even cruel.

Yes, I have no problem in my mind with the concept of God 'allowing' the slaughter of animals.

[Anti Federalist]

Whew. What a relief. Because this one wants the government to execute meat eaters. She says people should be forced to be vegan at the barrel of a government gun and that they should be killed if they refuse. Jiminy crickets, gawd dang.

And it's almost always women.

And they would do it too.

It's people like this that could care less about a cop beating some poor bastard half to death, or government tyranny, but let a cop shoot a puppy and all holy hell will break loose.

[Anti Federalist]

See what I mean?


North Ridgeville animal control officer fired for killing bunnies

http://www.wkyc.com/mb/news/local/lo...nies/442838540

ORTH RIDGEVILLE - The city of North Ridgeville has reportedly fired an animal control officer after allegations that he killed several bunnies.

According to The Chronicle-Telegram, Officer Barry Accorti was fired by the city Wednesday.

Accorti was accused of smashing the heads of five baby rabbits after a man found them in his girlfriend's yard.

The man, identified as Sheldon Jones, told WKYC Wednesday that he was mowing the lawn when he realized he had accidentally killed one of the bunnies. Jones said he called police and Accorti was sent to his house.

"When he got here... didn't exchange five words with me... took the rabbits to the tail gate of his truck and smashed their heads down one after the other," Jones said.

It's not the first time Accorti has faced accusations of improperly killing baby animals. He allegedly shot a baby raccoon in front of children in 2013 and was accused of shooting kittens in front of children the following year.

North Ridgeville Police did not respond to WKYC's requests for comment.

According to The Chronicle-Telegram, Police Chief Michael Freeman described the incident as "not pleasant."

[lilymc]

Whew. What a relief. Because this one wants the government to execute meat eaters. She says people should be forced to be vegan at the barrel of a government gun and that they should be killed if they refuse. Jiminy crickets, gawd dang.

What are you trying to do, stir the pot here? Yep, case in point. That's one of the things I was talking about in my previous post. Then again, some people think that she just wants attention and wants to create controversy to get subscribers and become famous.

[Natural Citizen]

And it's almost always women.

And they would do it too.

It's people like this that could care less about a cop beating some poor bastard half to death, or government tyranny, but let a cop shoot a puppy and all holy hell will break loose.

Well, I did get peed off in that other thread where Theye crushed the baby bunnies heads. Did you see that? What the heck.

I know lily doesn't hold those beliefs but that's one crazy bitch in that video. Did you see those arms and shoulders? Geez. Nasty.

[Dr.3D]

He created us, and a human's life can be nothing but a roadmap of pain and misery.

A "good God" created a world in which eight year old children die in pain and agony from cancers and disease, or get blown to bloody pieces by people who say your good God is the wrong good God, and you better worship their good God, or else.

If God cared so much about animal suffering, why did he not "waive" the burnt offerings required after original sin?

I understand that God can be harsh, judgmental and even cruel.

Yes, I have no problem in my mind with the concept of God 'allowing' the slaughter of animals.

Yes, it's interesting how He commanded so much sacrifice at the temple, if animals were not supposed to be killed.

[Anti Federalist]

That story raises a number of questions:

A) What kind of idiot calls cops over some baby bunnies found in his yard?

B) What about a plague of bunnies? Destroying crops, valuable fruit trees and gardens with hundreds of dollars worth of work invested...would you shoot them without compunction, especially if traps and snares were ineffective?

[tod evans]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying that you would have to tell anyone anything. I was saying that if someone could not in good conscience slaughter a pig or cow for food, they are not acting in line with their conscience by eating meat, wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn't agree, nor will I disagree, you would be asking me to speculate on another mans conscience.

I don't concern myself with what you or anyone else chooses to put into their body, certainly not to the extent that I'd call their conscience into question.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, I did get peed off in that other thread where Theye crushed the baby bunnies heads. Did you see that? What the heck.

I know lily doesn't hold those beliefs but that's one crazy bitch in that video. Did you see those arms and shoulders? Geez. Nasty.

Yes I did...if you look at other videos she has posted, she apparently fancies herself a porn star of some sort.

[lilymc]

He created us, and a human's life can be nothing but a roadmap of pain and misery.

A "good God" created a world in which eight year old children die in pain and agony from cancers and disease, or get blown to bloody pieces by people who say your good God is the wrong good God, and you better worship their good God, or else.

If God cared so much about animal suffering, why did he not "waive" the burnt offerings required after original sin?

I understand that God can be harsh, judgmental and even cruel.

Yes, I have no problem in my mind with the concept of God 'allowing' the slaughter of animals.

Sigh. You're bringing up all sorts of other things, things are important but this post deserves a reply that would take much more time than I have right now. I really need to eat dinner… I was traveling today (planes trains and automobiles) and all I had was a small snack.

[Anti Federalist]

Sigh. You're bringing up all sorts of other things, things are important but this post deserves a reply that would take much more time than I have right now. I really need to eat dinner… I was traveling today (planes trains and automobiles) and all I had was a small snack.

By all means go rest and relax...I know the feeling.

Reply when you feel like it.

[lilymc]

No I wouldn't agree, nor will I disagree, you would be asking me to speculate on another mans conscience.

I don't concern myself with what you or anyone else chooses to put into their body, certainly not to the extent that I'd call their conscience into question.

No, you're still not getting it. It was just an example of something that is incongruent. It's not about judging anyone, I could've used a completely different example that had nothing to do with food. But if you refuse to even acknowledge that, never mind.

[tod evans]

No, you're still not getting it. It was just an example of something that is incongruent. It's not about judging anyone, I could've used a completely different example that had nothing to do with food. But if you refuse to even acknowledge that, never mind.

I fully understand that you view people who won't kill their food as being incongruent with being carnivorous, that's cool it's your viewpoint.

It's when you try to lead me down a path that your going to have problems.......Why not simply state your opinion on the matter instead of trying to lead answers?

I don't have a problem with your diet, I like that stuff too, and even if I didn't it's your diet not mine....

I don't have a problem with you adopting or caring for all the critters you can, heck buy up whole farms and create sanctuaries, but don't try to dissuade me from eating meat...I know where it comes from.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not at all sad that a steer died to give me this:



Nor does it give me pause that this is where the process started:

[Dr.3D]

I'm not at all sad that a steer died to give me this:

Exactly! If anything, one should be thankful for it's sacrifice.

[Danke]

I eat Vegan, but also meat eaters, I don't believe in discrimination.

[Natural Citizen]

What are you trying to do, stir the pot here?

Yeah, pretty much. That vegan activist wants the government to kill people who refuse to comply with her beliefs. "Execute" them, she said.

Besides, you're okay. These guys observably are giving your debate more of their time than any of the nerds that come around here pulling this stuff. They'd have been long gone with their tails beteeen their legs by now. I guarantee that. That should tell you something. Ain't nobody gonna make it easy for ya, though.

Although I do commend you for not pulling your chest back in and running away from it.

Yep, case in point. That's one of the things I was talking about in my previous post.

Yes, I know.

Then again, some people think that she just wants attention and wants to create controversy to get subscribers and become famous.

zactly. That, too.

[heavenlyboy34]

lol. That is one of the reasons I usually don't call myself a vegan. Even though I don't eat meat and dairy, many vegans hold beliefs I disagree with… beliefs that are unbiblical… For that reason, as well as some other reasons, I usually just say 'plant-based.'

What do you think of seafood? During Lent I'm pretty much lacto-ovo vegan except for certain types of fish. #justcurious

[specsaregood]

I fully understand that you view people who won't kill their food as being incongruent with being carnivorous, that's cool it's your viewpoint.

That viewpoint doesn't make sense to me, there are a great many primarily/partly carnivorous species that are opportunistic feeders stealing others kills or carrion. Sometimes being a top predator means not having to get your hands/claws/teeth dirty to do the killing.

[tod evans]

That viewpoint doesn't make sense to me, there are a great many primarily/partly carnivorous species that are opportunistic feeders stealing others kills or carrion. Sometimes being a top predator means not having to get your hands/claws/teeth dirty to do the killing.

I've had vegans of one stripe or another flitting in and out of my life since the mid-70's, I even tried it once for a few weeks until I hitchhiked into town for a burger....

But the idea that one should be okay with killing and dressing their food is commonly thrown at carnivores by people who don't or won't processes their own flour or soy-kurd as a way to try and get the carnivore to second guess their dietary habits.

I seldom if ever see a carnivore or an omnivore trying to change a vegans mind on their diet, most often it'd be along the lines of "Should I fix you a burger?" instead of going on about how one diet is better than the other for one reason or another..

[Wooden Indian]

I've had vegans of one stripe or another flitting in and out of my life since the mid-70's, I even tried it once for a few weeks until I hitchhiked into town for a burger....

But the idea that one should be okay with killing and dressing their food is commonly thrown at carnivores by people who don't or won't processes their own flour or soy-kurd as a way to try and get the carnivore to second guess their dietary habits.

I seldom if ever see a carnivore or an omnivore trying to change a vegans mind on their diet, most often it'd be along the lines of "Should I fix you a burger?" instead of going on about how one diet is better than the other for one reason or another..

That's because Veganism is a cult not a diet.

[lilymc]

What do you think of seafood? During Lent I'm pretty much lacto-ovo vegan except for certain types of fish. #justcurious

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Well, when I first went plant-based (a little over a year ago) I stopped eating meat and dairy but I still ate a little seafood occasionally. But I kind of knew in the back of my mind that eventually I would stop eating seafood too. So yeah, I did stop eating seafood, for several reasons. I'm not sure if I should go into all that right now… But you kinda gave me an idea. Maybe at some point I'll do a video on this for my Live Mercifully YouTube channel.

I've had vegans of one stripe or another flitting in and out of my life since the mid-70's, I even tried it once for a few weeks until I hitchhiked into town for a burger....

But the idea that one should be okay with killing and dressing their food is commonly thrown at carnivores by people who don't or won't processes their own flour or soy-kurd as a way to try and get the carnivore to second guess their dietary habits.

That makes no sense. Are you trying to compare killing an animal to processing flour? False comparison, especially in light of the example that I brought up to you. I specifically said "if someone cannot in good conscience slaughter an animal…" The words "in good conscience" imply that there is a moral conflict there. It has nothing to do with laziness, not wanting to get messy or even being grossed out. I was talking about a situation where someone couldn't kill an animal because they felt guilty or that it would go against their conscience. So to try to compare that to not wanting to prepare their own flour or soy-curd food is apples and oranges... and missing the point.

I seldom if ever see a carnivore or an omnivore trying to change a vegans mind on their diet, most often it'd be along the lines of "Should I fix you a burger?" instead of going on about how one diet is better than the other for one reason or another..

That is because most (not all) vegans see it as an ethical matter. Not just a diet, not just a health thing, but a lifestyle and an ethical position. It's something they do because they believe it is wrong to harm animals and wrong to support something that is bad for the environment, bad for one's health, bad for numerous reasons.

That's because Veganism is a cult not a diet.

Some people say Christianity is a cult. In both cases it's untrue.

[tod evans]

That makes no sense. Are you trying to compare killing an animal to processing flour? False comparison, especially in light of the example that I brought up to you. I specifically said "if someone cannot in good conscience slaughter an animal…" The words "in good conscience" imply that there is a moral conflict there. It has nothing to do with laziness, not wanting to get messy or even being grossed out. I was talking about a situation where someone couldn't kill an animal because they felt guilty or that it would go against their conscience. So to try to compare that to not wanting to prepare their own flour or soy-curd food is apples and oranges... and missing the point.



That is because most (not all) vegans see it as an ethical matter. Not just a diet, not just a health thing, but a lifestyle and an ethical position. It's something they do because they believe it is wrong to harm animals and wrong to support something that is bad for the environment, bad for one's health, bad for numerous reasons.

To me and many others killing livestock is exactly the same as processing flour, it's all part of food preparation.

If you or other people have an issue of conscience when it comes to killing livestock or consuming its flesh then by all means abstain.

I'm not here to try and convince you to change your eating habits, it would be out of line and very impolite for me to do so.

I can acknowledge that you feel differently than I do about eating meat and I'm okay with that.

[Anti Federalist]

That is because most (not all) vegans see it as an ethical matter. Not just a diet, not just a health thing, but a lifestyle and an ethical position. It's something they do because they believe it is wrong to harm animals and wrong to support something that is bad for the environment, bad for one's health, bad for numerous reasons.

And that is called zealotry...

[lilymc]

To me and many others killing livestock is exactly the same as processing flour, it's all part of food preparation.

If you or other people have an issue of conscience when it comes to killing livestock or consuming its flesh then by all means abstain.

I'm not here to try and convince you to change your eating habits, it would be out of line and very impolite for me to do so.

I can acknowledge that you feel differently than I do about eating meat and I'm okay with that.

I understand your position. But when you said this:

"But the idea that one should be okay with killing and dressing their food is commonly thrown at carnivores by people who don't or won't processes their own flour or soy-kurd as a way to try and get the carnivore to second guess their dietary habits."

...you seemed to be implying that there was some sort of hypocrisy or inconsistency there. That is what made no sense. When a vegetarian or vegan does not process their flour or soy-curd, it is not for the same reason that they do not want to kill an animal. So to imply that they are being hypocritical is drawing a false comparison. I understand that in your eyes there's no difference between the two, but that wasn't the case in the example we were talking about.

But anyway, we don't have to keep arguing about that.

As for the evangelical aspect of veganism… I understand how you feel about it. Many meat eaters see it as pushy or rude. But can you understand that from the perspective of a vegan, it's not simply about one's diet? There is a bigger picture. It doesn't affect only them. It affects the animals, it affects the environment (and believe me, I am definitely not an environmentalist or modern day liberal… but facts are facts), it affects society overall, for a number of reasons. That is why many (not all) vegans wish to promote veganism. And I don't believe there is anything wrong with promoting a particular viewpoint, people do that all the time with numerous different things. That said, if they are mean, rude or try to force people, then that's a different story. Take promoting the Gospel, for example. Standing on a street corner yelling at people that they are going to Hell is probably not going to be as effective as treating people with respect and kindness and love. No one is ever swayed by force.

The good thing (from my point of view) is that most people already agree that animal abuse is wrong. Most people are already against cruelty to animals. It's just that many people are unaware of what goes on in factory farms, or the fur industry, etc. So it's just a matter of showing people that by purchasing certain things or by eating meat, they are inadvertently doing something that goes against their own beliefs and values.

That's why I posted this video earlier…In many cases, it's not hard to convince people when they are already against these things, but they just haven't made the connection yet.

[Anti Federalist]

it affects the environment (and believe me, I am definitely not an environmentalist or modern day liberal… but facts are facts)

Everything affects the environment, that is why it used as the perfect excuse for micromanaged control at the individual level.

The good thing (from my point of view) is that most people already agree that animal abuse is wrong. Most people are already against cruelty to animals. It's just that many people are unaware of what goes on in factory farms, or the fur industry, etc. So it's just a matter of showing people that by purchasing certain things or by eating meat, they are inadvertently doing something that goes against their own beliefs and values.

Yes, you are right and this is why I said at the start of this, that your side will win this argument, so there is no need to really argue the point.

Of course, you do realize that crop farming has just as big an impact on the environment, if not bigger.

So once animal protein has been politicized and banned, what next?

Soylent Green perhaps?

People are disconnected from nature, from where the basics of life come from, and how they are supplied.

And it's not just food...it's all the raw materials that make modern life possible.

So it is not hard to sway them with anthropomorphized images of animal cruelty.

I am quite sure that the city dwelling, neck tattooed, flat brim hat specimen that is in the video "still" would not have the slightest clue about how to grow a garden, compost soil, skin a deer or clean a fish.

[oyarde]

I eat Vegan, but also meat eaters, I don't believe in discrimination.

Pretty much how I was about taking scalps in my youth . Equal opportunity .

[tod evans]

The good thing (from my point of view) is that most people already agree that animal abuse is wrong. Most people are already against cruelty to animals. It's just that many people are unaware of what goes on in factory farms, or the fur industry, etc. So it's just a matter of showing people that by purchasing certain things or by eating meat, they are inadvertently doing something that goes against their own beliefs and values.

I think the "purchasing things" position is where we can come to an agreement, at least sort of........

I see city people as a blight on the world and without them it's pretty unlikely that there'd be a need for either factory farmed meat or genetically modified agriculture.

Because there's so many of these urban dwellers one stands a much better chance of talking to, and convincing rural people of the evils of supporting the cities..

These hoards are going to eat something, I say push rural folks to stop feeding them and let them eat each other and their plastic trinkets...

From my perspective this would be a battle easier waged that might provide acceptable results.

It's going to come to that eventually, just look at the number of people world wide who are only alive due to factory farmed sustenance....And they're breeding like rats.