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Thread: Napolitano: The GOP Didn't Touch the Core of Obamacare

  1. #1

    Napolitano: The GOP Didn't Touch the Core of Obamacare

    Ryan McMaken
    On Kennedy yesterday, Judge Andrew Napolitano explained how the GOP's "repeal" of Obamacare does nothing to touch the four foundations of the Obamacare plan.

    The new plan "assumes the premise of Obamacare," Napolitano noted, explaining that the ideological and legal foundations of Obamacare are still in place.

    Napolitano continued:

    There are 4 premises of Obamacare. The first is that somehow the federal government can regulate the delivery of healthcare. The second is that somehow the federal government is obliged to provide for health care.The third is the federal government can order you to purchase insurance for health care. The fourth is that all physicians must keep all of their records digitally ... and allow direct access to them by bureaucrats in the Department of Health and Human Services.

    Did the Republican legislation that the President and his colleagues and friends celebrated on Friday of last week change any of those things? It reinforced them! And they're still the essence of the law.
    Moreover, Napolitano explained, Trumpcare is likely to be a disaster politically since it does nothing to reduce costs. The Judge questioned how the new Trump version of Obamacare is an improvement, and compared the two health systems:

    [Under Obamacare], if you work 40 hours per week and you work for someone with 50 or more employees, that employer has to provide health care. Under the new system you have to provide healthcare for yourself. Under Obamacare, if you don't have healthcare because your employer doesn't provide it or you're in the category where your employer doesn't have to provide it, you get charged for it by the IRS and they buy the policy for you. Under the Ryan proposal, if you don't have health care, once you do get it, your insurance carrier can bill you 3,000 dollars a year over and above your premiums for each year you didn't have it.
    And yet, virtually the entire regulatory infrastructure remains in place, meaning costs can only be expected to go up.

    Will this help Republicans politically? Probably not:

    I think Mrs. Pelosi has a point when she says that Republicans are stuck with this and this is going to cause them a lot of harm politically. It doesn't serve those of us who believe in small government and the federal government should have nothing to do with health care, and it doesn't serve their blue collar middle class constituency that wants cheaper health care.

    The federal government can't produce cheaper healthcare unless it takes money from somebody and gives it to those to subsidize the acquisition of health care.
    So what should have been done?

    continued...https://mises.org/blog/napolitano-go...core-obamacare
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    I get most of my news from Swordsmyth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    [Under Obamacare], if you work 40 hours per week and you work for someone with 50 or more employees, that employer has to provide health care. Under the new system you have to provide healthcare for yourself. Under Obamacare, if you don't have healthcare because your employer doesn't provide it or you're in the category where your employer doesn't have to provide it, you get charged for it by the IRS and they buy the policy for you. Under the Ryan proposal, if you don't have health care, once you do get it, your insurance carrier can bill you 3,000 dollars a year over and above your premiums for each year you didn't have it.
    And yet, virtually the entire regulatory infrastructure remains in place, meaning costs can only be expected to go up.
    Woah, really? I didn't know it was that bad.... So if I don't have insurance for 10 years I get a 30 K bill if I sign up or am I reading that wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Woah, really? I didn't know it was that bad.... So if I don't have insurance for 10 years I get a 30 K bill if I sign up or am I reading that wrong?
    If true, I am royally screwed.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    I get most of my news from Swordsmyth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.

  5. #4
    Here, I'll trade you this nice shiny turd for your piece of $hit.

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  6. #5
    Thanks Amash! gag
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Woah, really? I didn't know it was that bad.... So if I don't have insurance for 10 years I get a 30 K bill if I sign up or am I reading that wrong?
    You are not reading that wrong, but the $3000/year is a cap. So basically, "no more than" $30K.

    Feel better?

    Ideally, these people would shop for the insurance with the lowest catch up bill so the market should keep it below those limits. Alternatively, though, is that the major insurance companies (which wrote this bill just like the previous one) will ALL keep the catch up bill high for those with the worst conditions because, let's face it, those people will cost more than they'll pay in.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #7
    But all the tee vee commercials said everyone is now covered! What's the problem??
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  9. #8
    But Trump said he was going to repeal Obamacare.












    And replace it with Obamacare.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    But Trump said he was going to repeal Obamacare.












    And replace it with Obamacare.
    No, now it's Trumpcare, you just don't understand the long game.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    I get most of my news from Swordsmyth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You are not reading that wrong, but the $3000/year is a cap. So basically, "no more than" $30K.

    Feel better?

    Ideally, these people would shop for the insurance with the lowest catch up bill so the market should keep it below those limits. Alternatively, though, is that the major insurance companies (which wrote this bill just like the previous one) will ALL keep the catch up bill high for those with the worst conditions because, let's face it, those people will cost more than they'll pay in.
    With those kinds of costs insurance isn't worth it for some people. Just go without it and if something bad happens oh well, hopefully the Docs will still save your life even if you can't pay. Beats living in a hovel in fear all your life sending all of your little paycheck as protection money to the cartel.

    And yes, as has been pointed out this will get the masses clambering for Single Payer instead of getting the government out as it should.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    No, now it's Trumpcare, you just don't understand the long game.
    That darned multidimensional chess always confuses me.

  14. #12
    On health care

    See, there wasn’t a second attempt. There was only one attempt. There was a mistake, was we set a date. Now had we not set that date, we would have had one time. What we did was we started off and it changed until three or four days ago when it got passed. But we set a date. And when we didn’t vote, everyone said Trump fails with health care. The thing that surprised me is, I said, I’m not stopping. And everybody, not one person said that was going to pass. Which was sort of surprising to me. Nobody thought it was going to pass. Everyone said–and I’d go to [Vice President] Mike [Pence], I said remember I said, they’re talking like we don’t have a chance of passing. I’ll tell you, it was a great thing. It was a great process because those two hundred plus people in congress I got to know almost every one of them. And I developed a bond with many of them that you can only develop under fire. And it was a great thing. And again, somebody wrote an article where they said this is one of the greatest learning experiences, because Donald Trump has gotten to know every–you know I was with them for eighteen hours a day, calling.
    http://time.com/4775040/donald-trump...ing-president/
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  15. #13
    [Under Obamacare], if you work 40 hours per week and you work for someone with 50 or more employees, that employer has to provide health care. Under the new system you have to provide healthcare for yourself.
    That's why I was "crunching the numbers" in this thread:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...almost-tripled

    Right now, my employer pays the bulk of my monthly insurance premiums, roughly 70/30.

    My reading of TrumpCare lead me to believe the same as Napolitano does: employers are no longer required to cover employees, and they will drop "company policies" for full time workers like hot potatoes.

    Leaving me, and millions of people like me, on the hook for a $1600 (or more) a month health insurance payment.

    Wait until that bombshell hits the addlepated masses of AmeriKunts.

    @phill4paul is right, refusing to comply is the only way out

    This is hopeless, pointless and useless...

    There are only two options here as I see it: armed rebellion, which is the only way the "swamp" will ever get drained, and we know nobody has the stomach for that, or drop out...refuse to comply.

    That's it for me.

    I refuse to comply.

    $#@! them, $#@! their system, $#@! their medical establishment.

    I will not comply.

    And, while I'm sure this is what the system actually wants, if I get seriously ill, then I will die.

    $#@! them, at least it will be on my terms, and not leave my family homeless and bankrupt.

    Vote harder...my aching $#@!ing ass.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 05-11-2017 at 11:23 AM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Woah, really? I didn't know it was that bad.... So if I don't have insurance for 10 years I get a 30 K bill if I sign up or am I reading that wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    If true, I am royally screwed.
    Pretty sure it is a flat $3,000 penalty when you want to sign back up again. I would like to see it much flatter. Real flat. Like zero.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by shakey1 View Post
    Here, I'll trade you this nice shiny turd for your piece of $hit.
    Exactly what I have been saying since the primaries.
    There is no spoon.

  18. #16
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    This is a huge letdown.
    「The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident;」.-Sir William Jones




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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Wait until that bombshell hits the addlepated masses of AmeriKunts.
    Like most deals with the devil. Things only get worse.

    ...just wait until that wall is built.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's why I was "crunching the numbers" in this thread:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...almost-tripled

    Right now, my employer pays the bulk of my monthly insurance premiums, roughly 70/30.

    My reading of TrumpCare lead me to believe the same as Napolitano does: employers are no longer required to cover employees, and they will drop "company policies" for full time workers like hot potatoes.

    Leaving me, and millions of people like me, on the hook for a $1600 (or more) a month health insurance payment.

    Wait until that bombshell hits the addlepated masses of AmeriKunts.

    @phill4paul is right, refusing to comply is the only way out

    This is hopeless, pointless and useless...

    There are only two options here as I see it: armed rebellion, which is the only way the "swamp" will ever get drained, and we know nobody has the stomach for that, or drop out...refuse to comply.

    That's it for me.

    I refuse to comply.

    $#@! them, $#@! their system, $#@! their medical establishment.

    I will not comply.

    And, while I'm sure this is what the system actually wants, if I get seriously ill, then I will die.

    $#@! them, at least it will be on my terms, and not leave my family homeless and bankrupt.

    Vote harder...my aching $#@!ing ass.
    Terminal but ambulatory is what I'm waiting on.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Woah, really? I didn't know it was that bad.... So if I don't have insurance for 10 years I get a 30 K bill if I sign up or am I reading that wrong?
    According to Art.VIII, S.4, SS.(1)(3)a(ii), Giraffe's are immune.

    Giraffe immunity provision.

    Giraffe lobby.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  23. #20
    National carry is looking a lot less likely.

    I'll give up on:

    Repealing the import ban.
    Dismantling the BATFE.
    Dismantling NICS.
    Ending victim disarmament zones.
    Repealing the NFA.
    Repealing the GCA.
    Instructing the Justice Department to prosecute anti-2A states like NY, NY, CA etc.
    "An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government" - Ron Paul.

  24. #21
    Aetna CEO Says We Need to Have a Conversation About Single Payer. We've Been Having It For A Long Time.

    http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/12/ae...have-a-convers

    And it always ends the same way. Here's the political and economic reasons why America won't be converting to a single-payer health care system anytime soon.

    Eric Boehm|May 12, 2017 3:14 pm

    Earlier this week, Aetna, one of America's biggest insurance companies, pulled out of Obamacare's insurance exchanges. Now its CEO thinks it's time for America to start talking about moving to a single payer health care system.

    "Single-payer, I think we should have that debate as a nation," Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini told a group of employees at a meeting on Thursday, according to Vox' Sarah Kliff.

    Here's the thing. We've had that conversation. Several times, in fact. It's always ended the same way.

    We had that conversation in 2009 and 2010 during the congressional debates on the Affordable Care Act. Progressives wanted the law to include a public option that would be run by the government and compete with private insurers, but there wasn't enough support for that to pass. Instead, the ACA allowed states to create government-run health care cooperatives that would be unmoored from the economic principles of profit-seeking and could compete with private insurers. Twenty-four states exercised the option to create co-ops, but by the end of last year only four were still running. The rest collapsed because they were too expensive and poorly managed (in part because no one with any experience running a health insurance business was allowed to run them).

    We kept having that conversation after Obamacare passed. In 2011, Vermont passed a law calling for the creation a state-wide single-payer health care system. But in 2014 the state scrapped the system before it even got off the ground because it was simply too expensive. Funding it would have required an extra $2.5 billion annually, almost double the state's current budget. Paying for it would have required a 11.5 percent payroll tax increase and a 9 percent income tax increase, and Gov. Peter Schumlin, who had advocated for single-payer and signed the bill to create the system, realized that even in deep-blue Vermont that was tantamount to political suicide.

    "You'd think that, if there was any state where this could fly politically, it should have been Vermont," Matthew Dickinson, a political science professor at Middlebury University, told Vox' Kliff in 2014 as part of her detailed post-mortem of the state's experiment with single-payer health care. "But in this case, the price was so big that even a state as solidly blue as Vermont wasn't able to swallow it."

    Still, we kept having the conversation. Referendum-happy Colorado, in 2016, asked its voters if they would want to have a single-payer health care system—and if they would support increasing payroll taxes by 10 percent to meet the estimated $25 billion annual price tag. They soundly rejected it. Despite Bernie Sanders traveling around the state to promote the idea, 79 percent of voters in November said "no."

    Sanders is still having that conversation, but now in California. Lawmakers in Sacramento are working on a bill to create a single-payer health care system for the state, but a new poll shows 66 percent of the state's residents are opposed to the idea (opposition increases to 75 percent when those polled are told the price tag for the system is $179 billion annually).

    Just this week, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), hardly a conservative voice in Congress, told constituents she was opposed to a single-payer health care system. When it comes to a "total takeover" of health care by government, "I'm just not there," she said, according to the Los Angeles Times.

    Is there a scenario where we end up with a national single-payer health care system within the next five years? Sure. Maybe there's a dramatic collapse of the insurance market—not impossible, given Obamacare's various ongoing troubles—and the government responds with a bailout that effectively nationalizes insurers and gives us a de facto single payer system.

    Maybe the backlash against Trump is enough for Democrats to overcome the disadvantages they face—a bad Senate map and gerrymandered House districts—in the 2018 midterms and take control of Congress. Maybe they strike a deal with Trump, who has expressed favor for single-payer systems elsewhere in the world, to implement such a system. Maybe.

    A more plausible scenario would see Democrats winning back control of Congress and giving Trump the boot in 2020, by which time maybe the health care market is such a total disaster that a new president can claim single-payer is the only solution and get Congress to go along. Or maybe Republicans will completely abandon their free market principles and will dive into the single-payer pool, as conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer speculated this week. In a poll conducted last month, almost half of Republicans said they supported a single payer system built around Medicare.

    Still, I'm more than a little skeptical. Even with the Democratic Party moving to the left, it's unlikely that a new Democratic majority—which, by definition, would require Democrats to win elections in 2018 or 2020 in Republican-leaning districts—would coalesce around a position that's too far left for someone like Feinstein.

    There are other political problems too. The AHCA has been battered in the media because it would disrupt health coverage for an estimated 24 million Americans over a decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office's assessment of an early version of the bill. Going to a single-payer model would disrupt everyone's existing health care plans. Sure, Democrats could argue that the change would be a good one, but change is scary and it's easier to scare people into opposing a new policy than reassure them that everything will be OK.

    Even if Democrats solve the political issues of transitioning to single-payer, they still have to solve the economic issues. That's a little bit easier on the federal level than it is at the state level because most states are required to balance their budgets, but a national single-payer system could just be added to the federal government's tab. Still, the price tag—one analysis of Sen. Bernie Sanders' single-payer campaign promise pegged the cost at $32 trillion in the first decade, alone—is likely to make many Democrats blanche (especially those in newly-seized Republican-leaning districts who will already be looking over their shoulders at potential challengers).

    All of this is fun to speculate about, but it's actually somewhat beside the point. Let's go back and look at what Bertolini, Aetna's CEO, actually said about single-payer health care:

    "The government doesn't administer anything. The first thing they've ever tried to administer in social programs was the ACA, and that didn't go so well. So the industry has always been the back room for government. If the government wants to pay all the bills, and employers want to stop offering coverage, and we can be there in a public private partnership to do the work we do today with Medicare, and with Medicaid at every state level, we run the Medicaid programs for them, then let's have that conversation."

    I don't think he's actually advocating for single-payer health care at all. What he seems to be saying is that he'd be open to having the government play a larger role in paying for health care, while contracting services through existing insurance companies—in other words, adding even more cronyism to a health care system that's already full of it. Libertarians and progressives alike should be suspicious of anyone advocating for having his own industry be "the back room for government."

    Sadly, that's probably where we are heading. There seems to be little interest in Congress—and virtually none in the White House—for market-based health care reform, so the AHCA will further entrench government's role in health care. It seems plausible that we could end up with a Medicaid-for-all-style system like the one that Bertolini seems to be discussing, which I suppose would be nominally a single-payer system, but not really in line with what progressives mean when they use the term.

    We'll continue having the discussion about single-payer health care, I'm sure. But until progressives can solve the economic and political barriers that have sunk that idea, repeatedly, in the past decade, I'm not sure it will ever be more than a conversation.



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