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Thread: Draft Evasion 101

  1. #1

    Draft Evasion 101

    I think its time to post a thread on this, what works (or worked in the past), what does not work . there is a lot of fake news regarding this, and now is the time to prepare if you are or have children 16-22 , male or female. call it draft insurance.

    this can be anything to establishing untraceable illnesses, getting second passports, learning languages (french would be helpful in Canada) , not learning certain languages officially (Korean, Russian could be subject to skills draft) researching the right religions (Quakers have always been exempt)



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  3. #2
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    Refuse to take the oath.

  4. #3
    Jan2017
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by cindy25 View Post
    I think its time to post a thread on this, what works (or worked in the past), what does not work .

    Call it draft insurance.

    This can be anything to establishing untraceable illnesses, getting second passports, learning languages (french would be helpful in Canada) , not learning certain languages officially (Korean, Russian could be subject to skills draft) researching the right religions (Quakers have always been exempt)


    - or -

    Last edited by Jan2017; 04-29-2017 at 08:08 AM.

  5. #4
    This seems to work:

    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    This seems to work:

    Only works if you have a rich, connected daddy pulling strings.....
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  7. #6
    Jan2017
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by cindy25 View Post
    . . . learning languages (french would be helpful in Canada) , not learning certain languages officially (Korean, Russian could be subject to skills draft) - researching the right religions (Quakers have always been exempt)
    Korean, Russian, Arabic . . .
    Well, chrome browser/Google translate of those languages with different characters works pretty decent -
    it does the whole page of youtube comments with click in a pop-up, but of course, not the audio or any subtitles.

    fwiw, I guess . . . Egyptian-made missiles (original of Ghadafi's Libya) have been used in Syria - 2014 and 2013



    Last edited by Jan2017; 04-30-2017 at 09:09 AM.

  8. #7
    I somehow do not think the average 18 yr old in america really holds value to the armed forces and do not expect to see a draft .
    Do something Danke

  9. #8
    We plan on converting to Mormon and sending them on a missionary trip.

    I suspect #2 son already has a binder full of women and some magic underpants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  11. #9
    Jan2017
    Member

    Well, chrome browser/Google translate of those languages with different characters works pretty decent -
    Languages as a draftable skill set could include computer programming code -
    . . . if the draft board asks if you use a computer, you could maybe say nada (?)

  12. #10
    For guys.. showing up in a dress probably won't work.. didn't for Klinger decades ago...
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  13. #11

  14. #12
    I say all DC politicians go first- including El Presidente; then we'll see how popular this becomes.
    There is no spoon.

  15. #13
    Conscientious objector?


    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  16. #14
    Free college and citizenship = plenty of soldiers
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Free college and citizenship = plenty of soldiers
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uits/97757094/

    Army to spend $300 million on bonuses and ads to get 6,000 more recruits


    WASHINGTON — The Army plans to spend $300 million in a blitz of bonuses and advertising over the next eight months to recruit 6,000 additional soldiers it needs to fill out its ranks.

    Legislation approved by Congress and signed late last year by former president Barack Obama halted a years-long drawdown of U.S. troops. Rising threats around the world have spurred the increase. The Army’s new goal for the remaining eight months of the fiscal year is 68,500, up from 62,500 recruits. The addition of 6,000 recruits to the goal makes it the largest in-year increase in the history of the all-volunteer force that dates to 1973.

    Rapidly growing the Army also has come at a different type of cost in the past: lower standards for recruits produced sub-par soldiers. Many had to be culled after training. That won’t happen this time, said Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Snow, who leads Army Recruiting Command.

    “There is very clear guidance from the leadership in our conversations that there is no desire to lower standards,” Snow said.

    By Oct. 1, the Army must hit its target of 476,000 active duty soldiers, up from the previous goal of 460,000. Increased recruiting along with retention of more soldiers will make up the gap. President Trump has said he wants an even larger force — as many as 60,000 more soldiers.

    The Air Force and Navy also are boosting their ranks. The Air Force plans to recruit and retain more airmen to meet its goal of 321,000 service members by Oct. 1, up 4,000 from its current total of 317,000, said Ann Stefanek, an Air Force spokeswoman. The Navy plans to add 2,200 recruits this fiscal year, according to Lt. Cmdr. Nate Christensen, a spokesman. The Navy has a target of 323,900 sailors for this year. The Marine Corps could add nearly 800 Marines this year to hit its target of 185,000, said Yvonne Carlock, a Marine spokeswoman.
    They aren't saying they need or want a draft yet (that would bring in even more unqualified recruits- the kind they are trying to get rid of). Congress has to approve the start up of a draft and they haven't even approved these new higher bonuses they want to pay.

    A military budget analyst questioned if the Army was acting too hastily to increase spending this year without congressional approval, and whether it had properly calibrated its proposed bonus payments.

    “The Army may be getting a little ahead of itself here,” said Todd Harrison, director of defense budget analysis at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a non-partisan think tank. “The money has not been appropriated.”

    Congress has not yet approved money to fund the troop requirement, and doesn’t appear to be in a rush to do so before late April when the temporary legislation funding the federal government expires,
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-02-2017 at 01:50 PM.

  18. #16
    If I got drafted, I would get pregnant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  20. #17
    https://www.sss.gov/About/Events-after-Draft


    How Would Selective Service Conduct a Return to the Draft

    When the all-volunteer force was established, it was not intended to stand alone in time of national emergency. If, by law, it is determined that a return to the draft is required, the Selective Service System would be responsible for supplying manpower through the induction process to fill vacancies that could not be filled through voluntary enlistments.

    In the event of a return to conscription, the Selective Service System would expand significantly. Its Reserve Forces Officers would be called to active duty to establish State Headquarters and Area Offices at predetermined locations, and at the same time approximately 2,000 Local and Appeal Boards would be activated throughout the nation, staffed by 11,000 volunteers. Computer links between all Agency locations would be activated. Current planning is based on the Department of Defense requirement which requires the first inductees about six months after notification. Selective Service is also capable of providing inductees with special skills, such as health care personnel, after authorizing legislation is passed by Congress and a draft is ordered by the President.

    An early step in the resumption of the inductions process would be to hold a lottery, sequencing dates of birth by random drawing, to determine the order in which registrants of prime draft age would be called for processing for induction. For a conventional draft of "untrained" manpower, a man is in the first priority group for a possible draft during the calendar year of his 20th birthday. Beginning January 1 of the year he turns 21 he would drop into the second priority category, and men born the year after he was born would move into the first priority group. Each succeeding year, a draft eligible man drops into the next lower priority group until he has reached his 26th birthday, at which time he is over the age of liability for the draft.

    Registrants facing possible induction would first be ordered to report for examination to establish their acceptability for military service. Those found acceptable will have the opportunity to file a claim for postponement, deferment, or exemption from military service prior to receiving an induction order. The Agency would also administer an Alternative Service Program for men classified as conscientious objectors who are required to perform such service in lieu of serving in the military.
    Before Congress reformed the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress in virtually any field of study. He could continue to go to school and be deferred from service until he was too old to be drafted.

    Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the full academic year.
    A draft held today would use a lottery system under which a man would spend only one year in first priority for the draft—either the calendar year he turned 20 or the year his deferment ended, whichever came first. Each year after that, he would be placed in a succeedingly lower priority group and his liability for the draft would lessen accordingly. In this way, he would be spared the uncertainty of waiting until his 26th birthday to be certain he would not be drafted.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-02-2017 at 01:38 PM.

  21. #18
    I already did my tours... before I knew about Dr. Paul. I served my full term of enlistment. Draft can kiss my ass. As for my kids? They are still very young, but if in 12 years:

    A. We still have a functioning national government that hasn't been torn apart by civil war, national debt, or hellfire

    and

    B. The bankers try to draft my kids to fight another bull$#@! war

    I will do whatever is necessary to prevent their draft, up to and including leaving the country.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  22. #19
    Most american kids are not good enough to be desired . Many that are have better options . In the old days , many of the Generals did not like better pay and bonuses for the troops because they liked to keep the budget percentage low that went to payroll , When they went back into Iraq last time I saw in the USA Today the Army was offering a 20k bonus for a two yr enlistment in one of my old jobs .
    Do something Danke

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan2017 View Post
    Korean, Russian, Arabic . . .
    Well, chrome browser/Google translate of those languages with different characters works pretty decent -
    it does the whole page of youtube comments with click in a pop-up, but of course, not the audio or any subtitles.

    fwiw, I guess . . . Egyptian-made missiles (original of Ghadafi's Libya) have been used in Syria - 2014 and 2013



    Google translate of Russian isn't trustworthy, I promise. Мне не нравится. Люблю истинный словар.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  24. #21
    Get married have a kid, have excessive tattoos, have huge holes in your ears from big earrings, be overweight, fail the asvab, fail the drug test, have terrible credit, have a record, history of SSRI use, the list goes on. The only people who get drafted are the people who want to be drafted there are so many ways out.

  25. #22

  26. #23
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    RU-mil 24282 961122 Military conscription in 19th century Russia
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
    MILITARY CONSCRIPTION IN RUSSIA IN THE 19th CENTURY
    By Dan Leeson <leeson@aspen.fhda.edu>
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
    A JewishGen InfoFile

    The material below was prepared in early 1994 and was motivated by
    stories about name changes, almost all of which derived from oral family
    histories having to do with a Russian male ancestor of the note's
    poster. The stories were invariably the same; i.e., the submitter's
    male ancestor, in order to avoid conscription in the Russian army,
    changed his name, generally through illegal means. The common element
    of these stories was that avoiding conscription in the Russian army
    invariably involved a name change and, on doing so, that person became
    invisible to the Russian authorities.

    Somehow, to my ears at least, some of these stories failed to pass tests
    of reason. They had plot gaps that could not be filled in through any
    invented scenario; i.e., some of these family histories were inherently
    unreasonable or convoluted to the point where there was no logical way
    to unravel the story.

    Research into the history of the conscription of Jews into the 19th
    century Russian army resulted in reinforcing my intuitive skepticism in
    some specific areas and contradicting assertions that had been made in
    others. In essence, the history did not support the variety of the
    comments being made, including those made by myself about my own family.
    I posted this material on JEWISHGEN and I freely admit that much of it
    is speculation on my part. Since that original posting, it has been
    reposted several times, and in the Spring of 1995, I was asked for
    permission to post it on JewishGen, the Jewish Genealogy Discussion
    Group as a retrievable InfoFile. This minor revision - clearing up some
    grammar and spelling and adding a few new things - was generated as a
    result of that request.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Subj: Conscription in Russia during the previous century
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Dear Friends. I want to thank all of those who were good enough to
    provide me with information concerning the conscription of Jews into the
    Russian army during the last century. This includes, but is not limited
    to:

    Milton E. Botwinick (miltone@aol.com)
    David Chapin (dchapin@er.arco.com)
    Marla Cohen (current e-mail address unknown)
    Bernard Kouchel (koosh@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us)
    Stan Lipson (stanl@turbo.kean.edu)
    Morton Merowitz (current e-mail address unknown)
    Norman Miller (nmiller@.trincoll.edu)
    Marvin Ravis (marvin.ravis@genesplicer.org)
    and
    Seth Rosenthal (seth@summit.novell.com)

    My original request was to satisfy a personal and genealogical curiosity
    about this subject since it seems to be a part of the fabric of every
    Jewish family that came to America from Russia ca. 1840 to ca. 1900.

    The warp and woof the fabric is that "Grandpa, in order to avoid
    conscription in the Russian Army ..." did this or that thing (mostly
    involving name changes but also self mutilation, and even the reported
    deliberate mutilation of children by their parents or townspeople). The
    name changing stories (or else a spelling change) is invariably the
    source for the stories of how "our name got changed from [xxx] to
    [yyy]."

    As both professional and amateur genealogists (my category being the
    latter), we spend years of research based on this kind of information.
    In my own case, I have been fighting that original name battle for
    almost a quarter century and I am no further in solving it now than I
    was at the inception of my research. And all of my effort is based on
    the family story that "Grandfather, in order to avoid conscription in
    the Russian Army changed his name from Leeson (or Leisen or Liesan or
    Leahson or goodness know what) to Rosenberg so as to disguise himself to
    the conscripting authorities." This family tradition, true or false,
    pervades my entire generation and will continue unchanged into the 21st
    century if I can't do something about it.

    I became sufficiently interested in the history of the whole period that
    I spent some time researching it. And frankly, a lot of what I thought
    I knew is not consistent with the standard reference texts that deal
    with that epoch and that subject. Ordinarily, I would not bring this
    matter to JEWGEN because, on the surface, it appears to be interesting
    history but not really genealogy.

    But because so many of us have these stories as core to our own
    genealogies, the reliability and accuracy of them must be examined.
    Often the direction that our genealogical research takes is based on these
    handed-down tales, but many of the things that we were told may fall
    into the realm of bube meises (i.e., old wives tales) that we have all
    accepted as fact (including me). Now I find that some of these bube
    meises, charming and romantic though they may be, fail to pass some
    basic tests of reason.

    Let me begin by summarizing the legislation concerning military duty for
    Jewish males in Russia. Until 1827, Jews in Russia were forbidden to
    serve in the military. Instead they were taxed for being denied the
    right to serve their country, but this is simply another discriminatory
    variation of the Jew's tax. Mind you, the impossibility of a Jew
    serving in the Russian military did not come at the request of the
    Jewish community but from Russian law designed to prevent Jews from
    serving their country in this patriotic way. Any contrary position
    would have forced the Russian oligarchy into giving Jews a measure of
    political equality, something they had no intention of doing in any
    case. (In some countries where it was forbidden for Jews to serve in the
    armed forces of that nation, their absence in the armies was offered as
    evidence that Jews were cowards, unwilling to fight for their country.)

    In 1827, personal military duty for Jews was first introduced in Russia,
    with recruits being from 12 to 25 years of age. The fact that 10 Jewish
    males were selected each year for every 1,000 Jews in the population,
    while only 7 non-Jewish males were selected every two years for each
    1,000 non-Jews in the population shows that the conscription had an
    important discriminatory purpose that I will address myself to in a
    moment.

    However, although Jews were permitted to serve in the military, rights
    for having done so were not granted to them until 1856. For example,
    prior to 1856, a 25 year non-Jewish veteran would be given land, though
    it might be in an inaccessible place. In 1856, Jewish veterans also
    became eligible to receive land for their 25 years of military service.

    A military code created in 1864 contained no special rules for Jews. At
    a later time, laws began to change and Jews were explicitly singled out
    for special and pejorative treatment. For example, in 1876 a law was
    passed that unfit Jewish recruits had to be replaced by healthy Jewish
    co-religionists; in 1878, the law was again changed this time to read
    that any shortage of Jews in a particular precinct had to be made up by
    drafting Jews from that same precinct even should those drafted be
    otherwise exempt from duty; in 1886, Jews were forbidden to transfer
    from one recruiting precinct to another.

    General laws applicable to Jews included: (1) the family of a Jew who
    evaded military service was assessed a fine of 300 rubles; (2) capturing
    a Jew who evaded military service yielded a cash reward of 50 rubles.

    Between the years 1874 and 1892 (excluding 1883 for which no reliable
    figures are available), a total of 173,434 Jewish recruits were drafted.

    I think that you can see that this entire effort was far more
    disciplined than we have led to believe and it was not so easy to get
    out of being conscripted. I point out one final time, that I mention
    all of this because of its important relationship to our genealogical
    studies; i.e., I am beginning to be of the opinion that the stories
    that have sent many of us off in certain research directions, may not be
    nearly as accurate as we have traditionally been led to believe.

    The entire subject of conscription of Jews into the Russian army cannot
    be divorced from the apparently overwhelming desire of the Russian
    oligarchy to convert all Jews to Christianity. Many measures were
    instituted to accomplish that end including:

    (1) the endowment of all rights accorded to Christians
    of the same rank to any baptized Jew;

    (2) the exemption from taxes for three years to any
    Jewish convert, and;

    (3) the most important, the establishment of an
    obligatory army service that previously was exclusionary.

    The 1827 regulation that permitted Jews to serve in the army was,
    ostensibly, for the more equitable distribution of military burdens
    amongst all Russian citizens. But, in fact, the government was
    motivated solely by the desire to detach a large number of Jews from
    Jewish society, or else to transplant them elsewhere on Russian soil so
    as to deprive them of Jewish influence and, where practical, baptize
    them.

    Transfers of this kind under Nicholas I were made with impunity. And
    any male between the ages of 12 and 25 could be conscripted for a
    standard period of 25 years. Special and oppressive conditions were
    devised for the Jews so as to increase the number of Jewish soldiers,
    including the induction of a far greater percentage of the Jewish
    population than the non-Jewish population. Further, Jews were obliged
    to furnish conscripts for every conscription term while non-Jews were
    exempted at various and unpredictable intervals.

    Jews were conscripted for arrears in the payment of taxes (1 conscript
    for every 1,000 rubles). Eventually, conscripts were taken as a fine
    for being in arrears in the payment of taxes but without the
    indebtedness being discharged.

    Now, from a genealogical point of view and with respect to the stories
    told to us, a critical moment arrives: because many able bodied men fled
    from Russia (thus beginning a new chapter in American immigration
    history that would lead to a flood of Jews arriving from Russia up to
    and beyond the turn of the century), the Jewish communities represented
    by Jewish committees called "kahals," were unable to furnish the number
    of recruits demanded. And since every conscript not furnished at the
    required time resulted in two additional conscripts being commanded, it
    became necessary to recruit cripples, invalids, old men, and others who
    had previously been held exempt. This included only sons, oldest sons,
    sole supporters of families, children as young as 8 years of age, and
    others who were thought to be exempt by virtue of their family or
    personal situations. The authorities would even go so far as
    conscripting the members of the kahal itself, and these were generally
    men of advanced age.

    But despite these draconian measures, the conscription arrears
    increased. In 1853, the Jewish communities began to remedy this
    situation by seizing all Jews within their own districts who were
    without passports, or who belonged to other Jewish communities. These
    seized men were then included in their own quota of recruits. The head
    of a family, whatever his own standing, was given the right to seize
    such Jews and to deliver them to the authorities as substitutes for
    themselves or for members of their own families. It sounds terrible to
    say this but some of the reported behavior of Jews at this time appears
    similar to that of the Jewish kapos during the Holocaust. I mean no
    condemnation of anyone. Who knows how we might have behaved under these
    circumstances? So accept my comments as reportorial, not as criticism
    of the people of these awful times.

    In effect, the situation deteriorated to dog-eat-dog, and the notion of
    Jews protecting each other through various designs (such as adoptions,
    name changes, self-mutilation which often did nothing to exempt the
    mutilated person) may well be an invented and fanciful history created
    after the fact. We all do the same thing today to avoid reflecting on a
    difficult moment of our own history. In my case, I remember being in
    the U.S. army with some affection at this distance of about 35 years,
    but when I was in it, it was awful.

    Alternatively, there may have been some early attempts to evade the
    conscription laws in precisely the ways that have been described to us.
    But, on seeing that they did not work, I suggest that they were
    abandoned early-on in favor of fleeing the country.

    The bottom line here is that exemptions were not protection against
    induction. If the kahal needed men to fill a quota of conscripts, the
    fact that a person was an only child (either in fact or out of
    invention) was not as useful as we have been led to believe.

    A good example of this very case can be found in a short story by Sholom
    Aleichem, entitled "Back From the Draft." In this story, Aleichem
    describes how the subject's only son had to undergo four physical
    examinations by the Russian military authorities because his
    "gilt-edged, first-class exemption" was rendered worthless by a
    combination of administrative incompetence, a relocation from one
    district to another, and a peculiar case of Yiddish naming of the child
    which caused him to be confused with a previous, though dead, child. It
    is true that this is fiction, but as Norman Miller
    (nmiller@.trincoll.edu) suggested to me in his helpful note, "When you
    need the unadorned facts, turn to fiction."

    I also mention the book "The Journey of David Toback" as brought to my
    attention by David Chapin (dchapin@er.arco.com). This is an oral
    history captured from Toback by his granddaughter. He describes his own
    conscription and his presentation of himself for medical examination at
    the induction center in a way that differs little from my military
    induction in New York City, except that a capricious doctor took a
    desperately sick Hasid into the army ("because he is strong enough to
    pray") but rejected Toback who was "ready and anxious to go into the
    army and fight for my beloved country and for the Tsar" as a joke.

    In effect, exemption from military service seemed to mean little if
    anything and this, to my mind at least, casts considerable doubt on all
    the stories that we have heard about "Grandpa, in order to avoid
    conscription in the Russian army ..."

    So, for all those breaking their heads to find out Grandpa's original
    name,"before he went to live with the family whose name he took in order
    to avoid conscription in the Russian army," this may be an exercise in
    futility. This is because, in my opinion, there is question if these
    things happened in the way we were told.

    I begin my conclusion of this period of history with a discussion of the
    cantonist movement. The men who were a part of it were, unofficially,
    called by the Russian "lovchiki" or the Yiddish "khapper" which is
    translated as both "bounty-hunter" or, more colloquially, "one who
    grabs." And it is with this activity that the stories of Jews avoiding
    conscription must come under closest scrutiny. This is what appears to
    have happened.

    The high quota that was demanded, the brutally severe conditions of
    service, and the knowledge that conscripts would be forced to contravene
    Jewish religious precepts and cut themselves off from their homes and
    families, made those liable for conscription try every means of evading
    it. The communal leaders who were made personally responsible for
    implementing the law took the easiest way out and filled the quota from
    children of the poorest homes.

    Every community had special officers, khappers, who seized the children,
    incarcerated them in the communal building and, finally, handed them
    over to the military authorities. The khappers were not scrupulous
    about adhering to the minimum age of 12 and frequently impressed
    children as young as 8. These were alleged by witnesses on oath to have
    reached the statutory age. These children were most frequently then
    spirited away to inaccessible places (cantonist institutions in Kazan,
    Orenburg [now Chklaov], Perm, and Siberia) from where they could not
    escape and return home, and where they waited until achieving the age of
    12 at which point they were then formally inducted into the army.

    So it seems that something like half of the inductees would not have
    been to claim that they were sole supporters of families since this half
    was no older than 12 and more likely no older than 8. The radical
    author, A. Herzen, described a meeting in 1835 with a convoy of Jewish
    cantonists.

    "The officer who escorted them said, "They have
    collected a crew of cursed little Jew boys of 8 or 9 years
    old. Whether they are taking them for the navy or what,
    I can't say. At first, the orders were to drive them to
    Perm; then there was a change and we are driving them
    to Kazan. I took them over a hundred versts farther
    back.' The officer who handed them over said, 'It's
    dreadful, and that's all about it; a third were left on the
    way' (and the officer pointed to the earth). 'Not half
    will reach their destination,' he said.

    [material deleted]

    "They brought the children and formed them into regular
    ranks: it was one of the most awful sights I have ever
    seen, those poor, poor children! Boys of 12 or 13 might
    somehow have survived it, but little fellows of 8 ..."

    The bottom line of all this cantonist activity is this:

    1) the khappers seized even Jews possessing legal (and
    illegal) passports;

    2) the possession of a deferral based on physical
    condition was irrelevant;

    3) the poimaniki (or the ones who were khapped), were
    impressed into service with no ability secure redress;

    4) children were the special objects of such raids though
    no man was safe upon leaving his home;

    5) several sources give the clear impression that the
    khappers, themselves, were Jews; it is ironic that the
    word "khapper" appears to be a variant of "kapo" though,
    in fact, it is not.

    Insofar as Jews self-mutilating themselves by cutting off toes, a foot,
    fingers, an ear, etc., this may indeed have been done by the most
    desperate. But the stories that parents maimed their children in this
    way cannot, in my view, be accepted at face value. Does any Jew think
    that local rabbinic authority would have encouraged, permitted,
    tolerated (chose whatever word you wish) the physical mutilation of
    children for any purpose whatsoever? Does any Jew think that a parent
    would do such a thing to their child, no matter what the provocation?
    That parents have killed their children in defense of HaShem is well
    documented both in the times of the Crusades, and also in the best-known
    case of Masada, but deliberate mutilation of children is not only
    unknown, it is a disgusting suggestion. And not for one moment do I
    believe these stories or any others of this nature on the basis of the
    evidence presented.

    However, there were reported cases of children who were made unfit for
    service (or at least an attempt was made to make them unfit) by not
    permitting them to sleep for days, running them around town for hours
    until were exhausted, and starving them, etc. I can understand,
    believe, and accept this, but physical mutilation? No!

    This leaves us with only one question yet to be addressed: why do these
    stories exist? And for that, I suggest a plausible but invented
    hypothesis. Most of the adult Jewish males who came to the United
    States came here with forged paper, fleeing Russia as illegal emigrants,
    which, to a certain extent, made them illegal immigrants. These people
    were terrified that their illegal presence in the U.S. would become
    known and both they and their families would be unwillingly returned to
    Russia.

    As a consequence, they made up stories that made their presence in the
    U.S. quasi legal; i.e., as the purported only son of a family (and they
    had forged documents in support of that - - my great, great uncle Moshe
    Singer of Reading, PA was such a forger), they would say that this
    legally excused them from service in the Russian army, and their
    presence here was much more lawful, at least in their eyes. But if it
    were to be found out that their entire paperwork trail was based on an
    illegal flight from a sovereign state, they foresaw nothing but trouble.
    So they made up bube meises, and their children repeated them, and we
    heard them, and we pass them on to our children. And we spend years
    trying to find the "Smith" family whose name they adopted when they
    became the erstwhile only child of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. And there is no
    such family because the whole thing never happened that way.

    I ask you to accept that, while I am talking as if I know something, in
    fact, I do not. This is a lot of speculation based on the principle of
    Occam's Razor; i.e., given a situation, the most likely cause of that
    situation is the simplest suggestion, not an elaborate and complicated
    one.

    There are several interesting books on the subject that you may find
    enjoyable. I certainly did. Besides the "Journey of David Tobock"
    mentioned earlier, there is "The Shteltl Book" by Roskies, "The
    Landsman" by Peter Martin (a fiction novel), "The Persecution of the
    Jews in Russia," London, 1891, Report of the Russo-Jewish Committee, of
    course, the Encyclopedia Judaica, though the 1903 edition is the more
    helpful. This latter reference tool is much closer to the problem and,
    in my opinion, much more accurate and descriptive.

    In closing, I end with three points:

    1) David Chapin (dchapin@er.arco.com) corrects an
    error in an earlier note when he points out that, under
    the Tsar Alexander (assassinated in the 1880s), the
    service duration of 25 years was reduced to 5-10 years.
    When Alexander was assassinated the Jews of Russia
    considered this a great calamity and the emigration to
    the United States doubled and tripled right after his
    death. Why? They feared reinstitution of the 25 year
    military service requirement.

    2) Many Jews considered it their duty to serve in the
    Russian army and Sholom Aleichem, in a serious story,
    comments on how two Jews spend Passover, proud of
    their ability to be of service to their country. When such
    men completed their 25 years of service, they were
    considered heros as they returned to an often very
    different village from that which they had left 25 years
    earlier.

    3) As in every time, Jews felt an obligation to serve their
    country in a military way. It was only the attitude of the
    Russian government that prevented them from doing so
    before 1827. After that date, the military was treated by
    the Russian government as a vehicle for the persecution
    of Jews, so it is little wonder that they did not want to
    serve. Even so, many did. I do not assert that Jews did
    not serve in the Russian military, only that their service
    took on characteristics that caused a normally tolerant
    and patriotic people to try and avoid that service, though
    not in the ways that have been transmitted to use by our
    ancestors.

    --------------
    [26Mar95dl]bik
    Provider: Dan Leeson <leeson@aspen.fhda.edu>
    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    If I got drafted, I would get pregnant.
    I would assume that whatever unit you are in would pay for your birth control.


    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  30. #26
    Supporting Member
    North Korea



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    Can women going through menopause actually get pregnant is the question.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I would assume that whatever unit you are in would pay for your birth control.


    Their budget's not big enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  32. #28
    I remember a fellow in boot camp who was discharged because he wet the bed every night.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I remember a fellow in boot camp who was discharged because he wet the bed every night.
    Probably just a potassium nitrate side effect
    Do something Danke

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Probably just a potassium nitrate side effect
    Could be, but it was when there was a draft and I wondered if he was doing it on purpose.

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