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Thread: Neil Gorsuch's first vote on Supreme Court is deciding vote to allow AR execution

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    They have an abysmal record at both.

    Such matters would be better handled by local militias or even neighborhood groups who had a vested interest.
    Do they really have such an abysmal record? I'm not so sure. They might. I just don't know. How many innocent people have states in the USA executed over the past couple hundred years? And then how many innocent people have mobs killed in the same time-frame and geographical area? What's the percentages?

    Philosophically, people are people. Right? Whether they've organized themselves in one way, or another. So your limited objection to certain executions seems to basically be procedural. You want people to use the best possible procedures in order to ensure those deserving death receive it, and the undeserving do not. Is that right?



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    this 5-4 decision means the winners were those that were honoring the original understanding of our rules.

    the first step to taking anything back is to adhere to the rules - fighting for originalism is the first step. This SCOTUS nomination might be the only good thing that comes from Trump, so this thread should be a celebration, but the useless anarchists in our midst prevent that from every happening.
    As one of the "useless anarchists" (a description I gladly accept, as I have no desire to be "useful" to statists), I have no problem at all with this SCOTUS decision.

    The fact that I am opposed to the death penalty does not mean that I support the Feds sticking their goddam noses where they don't belong.

  4. #123
    Neil Gorsuch's first vote on Supreme Court is deciding vote to allow AR execution
    Hmmm. Am I the only one who saw the headline and at first thought that they had allowed a method (i.e. AR-15 firing squad)?
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  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Do they really have such an abysmal record? I'm not so sure. They might. I just don't know. How many innocent people have states in the USA executed over the past couple hundred years? And then how many innocent people have mobs killed in the same time-frame and geographical area? What's the percentages?

    Philosophically, people are people. Right? Whether they've organized themselves in one way, or another. So your limited objection to certain executions seems to basically be procedural. You want people to use the best possible procedures in order to ensure those deserving death receive it, and the undeserving do not. Is that right?
    I'm good with local mobs, if you will, agreeing to execute someone for whatever reason they choose, or not....

    Where I have issues, procedural, is non-local people using their set(s) of rules and procedure to convict and imprison or execute criminals, equally an issue is funding said sentencing...

    There are too many people and too many differing ideas of "justice" for a one size fits all court system.

    What we suffer under now isn't working and trying to implement a universal system has been a continued failure both financially and socially for literally decades...

    It's time to try something different.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Do they really have such an abysmal record? I'm not so sure. They might. I just don't know. How many innocent people have states in the USA executed over the past couple hundred years? And then how many innocent people have mobs killed in the same time-frame and geographical area? What's the percentages?

    Philosophically, people are people. Right? Whether they've organized themselves in one way, or another. So your limited objection to certain executions seems to basically be procedural. You want people to use the best possible procedures in order to ensure those deserving death receive it, and the undeserving do not. Is that right?
    my new favorite poster!

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Which "rules" and whose original understanding?
    really? connect the dots!

    Today's kourts in no way represent the justice system this country was founded on...
    oh - the k for a c. wow. how brilliant. I mean come on.

    "Originalism" is a sound theory if one uses it to refer to the constitution and bill or rights as they were written and not some 19th century interpretation...
    it is the only correct theory when dealing with contract law. And my 19th century interpretation, you mean original understanding? That is the best method, when possible. When not possible, you have to deal with more modern interpretations of text - but man, if you know how it was understood at time of agreement - that is the best method. Anything else leads to a living breathing document, which is bull$#@!

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    oh - the k for a c. wow. how brilliant. I mean come on.
    I know it's difficult to follow along so here's a picture...



  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm good with local mobs, if you will, agreeing to execute someone for whatever reason they choose, or not....
    Right, I know.

    Where I have issues, procedural, is non-local people using their set(s) of rules and procedure to convict and imprison or execute criminals, equally an issue is funding said sentencing...
    Yeah, there's no reason the whole thing should be so expensive. One of the advantages of execution should be that society doesn't have to pay for the killer's upkeep for the rest of his life and thus avoids wasting resources.

    There are too many people and too many differing ideas of "justice" for a one size fits all court system.
    Gotcha. Now I understand. It isn't just a "what if they wrongfully execute someone?" problem, it's a centralization vs. decentralization problem.

    And I, like Occam and like you, am definitely going to come out on the side of decentralization. If nothing else, for the unrelated practical strategic benefits: decentralization in and of itself will make it easier to accomplish the broad liberty agenda, even if decentralization on a particular issue does nothing to further libertarian goals, or even contradicts them.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Right, I know.

    Yeah, there's no reason the whole thing should be so expensive. One of the advantages of execution should be that society doesn't have to pay for the killer's upkeep for the rest of his life and thus avoids wasting resources.

    Gotcha. Now I understand. It isn't just a "what if they wrongfully execute someone?" problem, it's a centralization vs. decentralization problem.

    And I, like Occam and like you, am definitely going to come out on the side of decentralization. If nothing else, for the unrelated practical strategic benefits: decentralization in and of itself will make it easier to accomplish the broad liberty agenda, even if decentralization on a particular issue does nothing to further libertarian goals, or even contradicts them.
    The "What if it's the wrong guy?" question should fall squarely on the neighborhood that convicts and kills the accused, not some idiot 4 states away with a fancy prep-school degree who can wax eloquently about the sanctity of life....

    Courts in a republic such as I understand would have but a few guiding principals that are interpreted by that court not by the same batch of idiots 4 states away..

    Lawyers have wrangled good documents into the millions of pages of "Law" that we're all expected to abide by......The simplest solution is to remove lawyers from courts......Permit them to advise out of the room but never permit them in a courtroom, not on the bench and never representing the collective.....

    Take the financial incentive out of practicing law and you'll have justice in a matter of months...

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Lawyers have wrangled good documents into the millions of pages of "Law" that we're all expected to abide by......The simplest solution is to remove lawyers from courts......Permit them to advise out of the room but never permit them in a courtroom, not on the bench and never representing the collective.....

    Take the financial incentive out of practicing law and you'll have justice in a matter of months...
    I am very much in favor of this reform. I love it. No lawyers in the courtroom (unless a party to the dispute). No one can ever be a judge who has ever done any legal work for a fee.

    On penalty of death.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    I am very much in favor of this reform. I love it. No lawyers in the courtroom (unless a party to the dispute). No one can ever be a judge who has ever done any legal work for a fee.

    On penalty of death.
    Quickest way to converting a "Just-Us" department into a Justice department that I can think of....

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Some people are overwhelmingly guilty where there is no possible doubt as to their guilt. That actually might not apply to this case and I might have voted with the liberal judges. But in some cases like with Jeffrey Dahmer or the Unabomber or OJ Simpson where there is no doubt as to their guilt, I don't see a reason why they should be breathing. I think executing someone who takes the life of another person where there is a 0% chance of their innocence is a very fair punishment. You lose rights when you violate the rights of others.

    OJ's son Jason Simpson did it.
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  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    It is an appeal against hypocrisy.
    But what's so bad about hypocrisy?

    Does it really matter if the system is "hypocritical" in some way? Do we care about that? If so, why?

    Killers can be punished without killing them. Capital punishment will inevitably result in the killing of innocents.

    Killing innocents in the name of punishing the killers of innocents is the epitome of hypocritical self-contradiction
    Well, again I don't know that we should necessarily care about hypocrisy (but I could be convinced!). I don't want to be hypocritical (I don't think. Depending what that means), but I don't necessarily care if other people are being hypocritical. Let's say that all that matters is results. Just hypothetically. What result would we be trying to optimize for here? I think a sensible thing to optimize for would be "fewest number of innocent people killed per decade." So, what kind of system would minimize the innocent-person-killings (IPK)?

    I think an argument could be made that brutal, public executions of murderers would be that optimized system we're looking for (or would be looking for, were we trying to optimize for that variable, IPK, discussed above). I think it would work pretty well. If we were to test out various systems in a parallel experiment on similar populations over a hundred year period, I think chances are good that a brutal punishment system would come out on top or near the top.

    Eliminating IPK is a goal that we're very far away from. So minimizing it seems like a worthy interim goal. If we could bring it down from 150,000 per decade to 75,000, that would be massive improvement! We cut in half! That is not morally perfect, but I think that would still be a worthwhile accomplishment. Let's say we got it down to 10,000. Wow! If 90% of those 10,000 innocents killed had been killed by the State in erroneous executions (or misguided: witches, drug dealers, etc.), that's too bad, but that still would be a massive improvement in IPK. Then maybe at that point it makes sense to hone in on the 9,000 IPKs done at the hands of the State and whittle that number down, whereas previously maybe it made more sense to focus on the much larger number of IPKs done by private criminals. If what we actually care about is minimizing IPK, then we should do whatever sequence of actions will bring down that number as rapidly and as permanently as possible.
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 04-25-2017 at 03:20 PM.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Based on numerous reversals, new trials, new evidence, details of cop and prosecutor corruption and plain old stupid bureaucratic inefficiency that have come to light over the years, it is safe to say roughly 10-15 percent of all death row inmates are, either technically or factually innocent.
    Why is that safe to say? What leads you to that figure?

    It seems very high to me. My estimate would be more between 1% and 0.1%. But, I would be very willing to change my mind on this estimate based on reality and evidence. So if you have any.......

    I'm all ears!

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    But what's so bad about hypocrisy?

    Does it really matter if the system is "hypocritical" in some way? Do we care about that? If so, why?

    Well, again I don't know that we should necessarily care about hypocrisy (but I could be convinced!). I don't want to be hypocritical (I don't think. Depending what that means), but I don't necessarily care if other people are being hypocritical.
    If you really don't understand that contradiction (which is inherent in all hypocrisy) is fatal to rational and reasonable thinking, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. (I'll just have to embrace Aristotle's advice not to waste one's time on those who wittingly indulge contradictions.)

    OTOH, if you are just being willfully fatuous for the sake of amusement, then I don't feel like playing along. (I say "amusement" and not "argument" here because there are no "arguments" to be had over contradictions - one has only to identify and reject them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Let's say that all that matters is results. Just hypothetically. What result would we be trying to optimize for here? I think a sensible thing to optimize for would be "fewest number of innocent people killed per decade." So, what kind of system would minimize the innocent-person-killings (IPK)?

    I think an argument could be made that brutal, public executions of murderers would be that optimized system we're looking for (or would be looking for, were we trying to optimize for that variable, IPK, discussed above). I think it would work pretty well. If we were to test out various systems in a parallel experiment on similar populations over a hundred year period, I think chances are good that a brutal punishment system would come out on top or near the top.

    Eliminating IPK is a goal that we're very far away from. So minimizing it seems like a worthy interim goal. If we could bring it down from 150,000 per decade to 75,000, that would be massive improvement! We cut in half! That is not morally perfect, but I think that would still be a worthwhile accomplishment. Let's say we got it down to 10,000. Wow! If 90% of those 10,000 innocents killed had been killed by the State in erroneous executions (or misguided: witches, drug dealers, etc.), that's too bad, but that still would be a massive improvement in IPK. Then maybe at that point it makes sense to hone in on the 9,000 IPKs done at the hands of the State and whittle that number down, whereas previously maybe it made more sense to focus on the much larger number of IPKs done by private criminals. If what we actually care about is minimizing IPK, then we should do whatever sequence of actions will bring down that number as rapidly and as permanently as possible.
    Eliminating "IPK" is impossibile. There will always be cases of murder, negligent homicide, fatal accidents, etc. These will never be eliminated so long as human beings continue to be human and mortal.

    I also don't care about "minimizing" or "optimizing" on "IPK" - as I indicated in the very post (#103) to which you replied, where I said, "it has nothing to do with 'the impact of more lives lost' (whatever that is supposed to mean)."

    I oppose the killing of innocent people. I oppse it when murderers do it. I oppose it when "capital punishers" do it. Capital punishment will inevitably involve the killing of innocent people wrongly convicted. Thus, to avoid that inevitability, we have only to abstain from captial punishment. Easy, peasy, lemon-squeezy. This works to the stated purpose, and it is perfectly feasible, having been and currently being the case in many jurisdictions. And best of all, it does not involve grandiosely quixotic endeavors such as trying to "minimize" or "optimize" the killing of innocent people by concocting a tortuous pretense at some kind of emprical "calculus" involving normative judgements and other things that are unquantifiable, unmeasurable and/or incommensurable (except in artifical "just so" hypotheticals) - all just in order to somehow downplay or justify the aforementioned hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-27-2017 at 05:00 AM.

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If you really don't understand that contradiction (which is inherent in all hypocrisy) is fatal to rational and reasonable thinking, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. (I'll just have to embrace Aristotle's advice not to waste one's time on those who wittingly indulge contradictions.)

    OTOH, if you are just being willfully fatuous for the sake of amusement, then I don't feel like playing along. (I say "amusement" and not "argument" here because there are no "arguments" to be had over contradictions - one has only to identify and reject them.)
    The "argument" at issue is: caring whether other people are contradicting themselves. I mean, why? Who made me the hypocrisy police?



    Eliminating "IPK" is impossible. There will always be cases of murder, negligent homicide, fatal accidents, etc. These will never be eliminated so long as human beings continue to be human and mortal.
    I didn't disagree with that. I just took the weaker position, because I didn't want to argue about whether it was literally metaphysically impossible. Surely everyone would agree at least that it's a long way away.

    I also don't care about "minimizing" or "optimizing" on "IPK" - as I indicated in the very post (#103) to which you replied, where I said, "it has nothing to do with 'the impact of more lives lost' (whatever that is supposed to mean)."

    I oppose the killing of innocent people.
    Umm, in what sense do you oppose it if you don't want to reduce it?



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Why is that safe to say? What leads you to that figure?

    It seems very high to me. My estimate would be more between 1% and 0.1%. But, I would be very willing to change my mind on this estimate based on reality and evidence. So if you have any.......

    I'm all ears!
    I will teach you how to fish so that you do not need to be given any. Let me show you how to bait your hook....

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=percen...logo=CT3210127

    Looking for a specific fish?

    https://www.innocenceproject.org/nat...-are-innocent/

    The researchers concluded that their 4.1 percent finding is a conservative estimate.
    You are welcome.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I will teach you how to fish so that you do not need to be given any. Let me show you how to bait your hook....

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=percen...logo=CT3210127

    Looking for a specific fish?

    https://www.innocenceproject.org/nat...-are-innocent/



    You are welcome.
    I wish it was just this easy to change someone's view on something like this. If just having access to information was enough for people to understand something then we wouldn't have the problem that we have today. People have access to google maps but still think the world is flat. When you show them evidence they try to conceive of ways that satellites can function in a "flat world"


  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    You are welcome.
    Thank you, sincerely! So it looks like there has been one (1) study attempting to address this question. Regarding the study,

    The research team deployed statistical devices to put a figure on the proportion of cases of hidden innocence. In particular, they deployed a technique known as “survival analysis”, to calculate the percentage of prisoners who have been taken off death row but who might still be innocent.

    They also applied “sensitivity analysis”, to take into account possible cases of exonerations where the released prisoner is nonetheless guilty, and to ensure that the overall findings erred on the side of caution.

    I am skeptical of advanced statistical "devices" and "analyses" which I do not understand, but nevertheless let's dive into the study.


    Significance

    The rate of erroneous conviction of innocent criminal defendants is often described as not merely unknown but unknowable. We use survival analysis to model this effect, and estimate that if all death-sentenced defendants remained under sentence of death indefinitely at least 4.1% would be exonerated. We conclude that this is a conservative estimate of the proportion of false conviction among death sentences in the United States.


    Abstract

    The rate of erroneous conviction of innocent criminal defendants is often described as not merely unknown but unknowable. There is no systematic method to determine the accuracy of a criminal conviction; if there were, these errors would not occur in the first place. As a result, very few false convictions are ever discovered, and those that are discovered are not representative of the group as a whole. In the United States, however, a high proportion of false convictions that do come to light and produce exonerations are concentrated among the tiny minority of cases in which defendants are sentenced to death. This makes it possible to use data on death row exonerations to estimate the overall rate of false conviction among death sentences. The high rate of exoneration among death-sentenced defendants appears to be driven by the threat of execution, but most death-sentenced defendants are removed from death row and resentenced to life imprisonment, after which the likelihood of exoneration drops sharply. We use survival analysis to model this effect, and estimate that if all death-sentenced defendants remained under sentence of death indefinitely, at least 4.1% would be exonerated. We conclude that this is a conservative estimate of the proportion of false conviction among death sentences in the United States.

    OK, so that's pretty straight-forward actually. I understand what they did. 1.7% of death row inmates are exonerated by the current system. Just as a note, the current system uses the standard "beyond any reasonable doubt." So, of course, this is not the number of death row inmates actually innocent of the crime of which they are accused, but those for whom the evidence no longer clears that bar. The number of innocents is some much lower number. But still! 1.7% is a high number! On the other hand, that 1.7% is not the number of innocent people who get wrongfully executed, which was the number I was putting forward, as likely 0.1% - 1%. It is the number who are freed! So it's not a condemnation of the justice process, at least not for being too harsh. On the other hand one could say it's evidence that it's too lenient, that "beyond any reasonable doubt" is too high a standard and is causing a large number of the guilty to get off, to "get away with it." I would not say this, because I like the "beyond any reasonable doubt" standard.

    Anyway, they extrapolated things and said "If all the non-death row people who used to be on death row but were downgraded also had lawyers from all across the nation doing an average of $5 million dollars of pro bono work for them, taking heroic measures, making extremely innovative arguments, appealing to the Supreme Court every single time, then an equal number of them would get exonerated, too." A pretty reasonable assumption. I think they're right. And if they are, that means that about 4% of death row inmates would be getting exonerated if nobody ever got downgraded off death row -- exoneration or death, that's it, no middle ground.

    Actually, I take that back: they are not completely right, because they're forgetting that there's a limited supply of lawyer-hours in the US. It's so large it seems unlimited, I know, but technically there are limits. (You need higher math.) So if the number of death-row cases for left-wing lawyers to heroically take up and eternally appeal were to quadruple, each case would not actually be able to get the same level of love and attention devoted to it as presently. It just physically couldn't happen. So, the exoneration rate would accordingly go down.
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 04-26-2017 at 10:24 AM.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If you really don't understand that contradiction (which is inherent in all hypocrisy) is fatal to rational and reasonable thinking, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. (I'll just have to embrace Aristotle's advice not to waste one's time on those who wittingly indulge contradictions.)

    OTOH, if you are just being willfully fatuous for the sake of amusement, then I don't feel like playing along. (I say "amusement" and not "argument" here because there are no "arguments" to be had over contradictions - one has only to identify and reject them.)



    Eliminating "IPK" is impossibile. There will always be cases of murder, negligent homicide, fatal accidents, etc. These will never be eliminated so long as human beings continue to be human and mortal.

    I also don't care about "minimizing" or "optimizing" on "IPK" - as I indicated in the very post (#103) to which you replied, where I said, "it has nothing to do with 'the impact of more lives lost' (whatever that is supposed to mean)."

    I oppose the killing of innocent people. I oppse it when murderers do it. I oppose it when "capital punishers" do it. Capital punishment will inevitably involve the killing of innocent people wrongly convicted. Thus, to avoid that inevitability, we have only to abstain from captial punishment. Easy, peasy, lemon-squeezy. This works to the stated purpose, and it is perfectly feasible, having been and currently being the case in many jurisdictions. And best of all, it does not involve grandiosely quixotic endeavors such as trying to "minimize" or "optimize" the killing of innocent people by concocting a tortuous pretense at some kind of emprical "calculus" involving things that are unquantifiable, unmeasurable and/or incommensurable (except in artifical "just so" hypotheticals), just in order to try an end-run around the aforementioned hypocrisy.
    Post of the day.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I wish it was just this easy to change someone's view on something like this.
    There is one person in this thread interested in the percentage of innocent people who get executed.

    That would be me.

    I am perfectly willing to believe any percentage for this unknown, so long as it has good data. 80%? 1%? 0.01%? Just show me that data.

    Are you? You're the one that has an opinion regarding this figure, not me. So what are you basing it on? Where's your data? And a very strong opinion it is! Anyone who disagrees with it is a flat-earther! Your data must be just over-the-top awesome! Incontrovertible! So bring it out!

  25. #142
    Both of you guys might want to do some research before you embarrass yourselves again.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    The "argument" at issue is: caring whether other people are contradicting themselves. I mean, why? Who made me the hypocrisy police?
    As I said:
    [T]here are no "arguments" to be had over contradictions - one has only to identify and reject them.
    One of the chief purposes of rational discussion and debate is to identify fallacies and errors (such as hypocritical contradictions) so that they might be corrected.

    If doing so makes one the "hypocrisy police" ... well, then ... guilty as charged, I guess?? (What's my punishement? Nothing capital, I hope ...)

    But if it pleases you, for whatever reason, to allow your interlocutors to indulge in fallacies and errors without challenge, then by all means do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    I oppose the killing of innocent people.
    Umm, in what sense do you oppose it if you don't want to reduce it?
    In just the sense indicated in the part of my reply you elided. Namely:
    I oppose the killing of innocent people. I oppose it when murderers do it. I oppose it when "capital punishers" do it. Capital punishment will inevitably involve the killing of innocent people wrongly convicted. Thus, to avoid that inevitability, we have only to abstain from capital punishment.
    I oppose the killing of innocent people - thus, when murderers kill innocent people, they should be punished.

    I oppose the killing of innocent people - thus, in order to avoid the killing of innocent people wrongly convicted, we should abstain from capital punishment.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If doing so makes one the "hypocrisy police" ... well, then ... guilty as charged, I guess?? (What's my punishment? Nothing capital, I hope ...)


    No, no, the hypocrisy police do not get punishment, they get to dish it out! The punishment is generally things like: ranting, raving, universal condemnation, doxing, public crucifixion, getting them fired, otherwise attempting to destroy their livelihood, endless death threats, and, as of late, dressing up in masks and burning, tipping, and/or smashing their cars and beating their skulls in with clubs and bottles. Hypocrites have no place in our society. It's always OK to punch a hypocrite.

    But if it pleases you, for whatever reason, to allow your interlocutors to indulge in fallacies and errors without challenge, then by all means do so.
    Yes, it pleases me. It pleases me greatly. Because: more time in my pocket to do things actually productive and valuable!

    Look, hypocrisy is everywhere. Under every rock and twig. You could waste your whole life trying to root it out. What does it even mean?

    To not live up to your own claimed standards? Well, that doesn't seem so horrible: at least you have high standards!

    To try to look virtuous when really you're not? Well at least you're showing some deference to virtue by putting up the facade -- modern man simply revels and rolls around in his filth and lack of virtue gleefully and dares anyone to condemn him for it. For my children, I will take a society of hypocrites before a gaggle of proud degenerates. At least the hypocrites have the decency of not rubbing it in your face.

    You've defined/redefined it to have as its principle characteristic as contradiction. That's the element of it that you disapprove of. OK, well, contradiction is bad, I suppose, if one is penning a philosophical treatise. But is it bad when buying groceries? When making health, or educational, or career, or business, or family, or interpersonal decisions? If you're doing any kind of halfway decent job at any of these things, there's going to be contradictions and inconsistencies everywhere. You'll be just strewing them about. At least choices that could be interpreted as such by hostile observers.

    You are an extremely hostile observer of the State. Extremely hostile. And so am I. And full well it deserves it. But that doesn't exactly make you a cool, objective judge of its actions. You're more like the ex-wife latching on to every possible sin and crying foul to the Family Court, in this case the Gods of Logical Consistency. "Oh, so you want to skip your business meeting this time to take Junior to soccer, and yet last week you supposedly couldn't? Hypocrite." Every single stupid thing is a reason to get on his case and some great crime.

    So, what about in a pure anarcho-capitalist society? There is no State. State died; you can't pick on him anymore and blame him for everything. We've got all our beautiful Private Defense Agencies dishing out justice in the free market way. Awesome. Could they execute people?

    Of course they could!

    Would they?

    Of course they would, if it worked!

    The increased insurance and secondary re-insurance rates brought on by payouts to the heirs and estates of wrongfully executed people will be vanishingly small compared to the tremendous, huge, incomparable value to their customers they've created by creating a safe, peaceful environment in which to live their lives and pursue their dreams. This is simple economics, and Austrian economics at that. The customer is the boss. The customer gets what he wants. And the customer prefers a happy society with a minimum of crime over a society with PDAs that do a more mediocre job but can pat themselves on the back for some sort of Abstract Moral Perfection.

    Moral at least according to someone's definition. Not to mine. I risk the lives of innocent people all the time, and I have no guilt about it whatsoever. I do it in order to make the world better. You know what I do?

    I drive.



    In just the sense indicated in the part of my reply you elided. Namely:

    I oppose the killing of innocent people - thus, when murderers kill innocent people, they should be punished.

    I oppose the killing of innocent people - thus, in order to avoid the killing of innocent people wrongly convicted, we should abstain from capital punishment.
    When I said that saying "results matter" was just hypothetical, I was just joking. But now I see that maybe it's really true! At least that's how it looks to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying you oppose it in the sense that...... you oppose it? As in, in your heart?

    Perhaps also as in saying "tsk, tsk"?

    This is ridiculous. To me it is. I guess your temperament is different. But according to me, when a man strongly "opposes" something, he wants to get rid of it! End it! Stamp it out! If he opposes it sincerely enough and strongly enough he will -- I know it seems rash, but he can't help it! -- actually do something in order to fight the thing he opposes. He doesn't just oppose it secretly in his heart (level 1) or even theoretically on internet message boards (level 2) he goes out and wreaks some total havok on the evil he opposes.

    If you oppose the killing of innocent people, the goal is to reduce the killing of innocent people. Period. Results matter. Reality matters. To say "I oppose the killing of innocent people, but I am not interested at all and don't care about reducing the number of innocent people killed"? Oh yeah, you care so much. Nothing personal, Occam, but that seems so unmanly to me, so weak, so impotent, it's like a caricature. Please tell me I've misunderstood.



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  29. #145
    Again, please tell me I've misunderstood. Help me understand. Help me add this up:

    • "I oppose the killing of innocent people."

    • "I also don't care about 'minimizing' or 'optimizing' on 'IPK' [number of innocent people killed] - as I indicated in the very post (#103) to which you replied, where I said, "it has nothing to do with 'the impact of more lives lost' (whatever that is supposed to mean)."

    Because to me, coming from my point of view, those two statements do not add up.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    There is one person in this thread interested in the percentage of innocent people who get executed.

    That would be me.

    I am perfectly willing to believe any percentage for this unknown, so long as it has good data. 80%? 1%? 0.01%? Just show me that data.

    Are you? You're the one that has an opinion regarding this figure, not me. So what are you basing it on? Where's your data? And a very strong opinion it is! Anyone who disagrees with it is a flat-earther! Your data must be just over-the-top awesome! Incontrovertible! So bring it out!
    It sure is taking a loooong time for you to assemble all this super-strong, super-obvious data that proves the Earth is flat or toroidal or whatever it is you are convinced I'm wrong about and about which you are full of Glorious Knowledge.

    Any time now....

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    It sure is taking a loooong time for you to assemble all this super-strong, super-obvious data that proves the Earth is flat or toroidal or whatever it is you are convinced I'm wrong about and about which you are full of Glorious Knowledge.

    Any time now....
    The argument I was making was it is not simple to teach someone an idea or concept in which they have already been taught and made their mind up on. Its the whole empty your cup, before you can fill it. I would never attempt to convince you of anything you have already made up your mind on because you are as stubborn as a mule. You have been neg repping me for 6 months telling me to get out of this forum so why should I even bother spending any more time on you.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The argument I was making was it is not simple to teach someone an idea or concept in which they have already been taught and made their mind up on. Its the whole empty your cup, before you can fill it. I would never attempt to convince you of anything you have already made up your mind on because you are as stubborn as a mule. You have been neg repping me for 6 months telling me to get out of this forum so why should I even bother spending any more time on you.
    Oh, so now you are going to talk to me like a human being?

    I like it.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    you are a sicko.

    Most police officers are good cops and good people.
    And Zippy gets "rep-burned" around here?

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    And Zippy gets "rep-burned" around here?
    Zippy asked for it.

    ARC is probably on most people's ignore lists, I negged him today and I will again if he keeps saying that kind of garbage.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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