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Thread: What is more important?

  1. #1

    Default What is more important?

    Assuming the dichotomy, I assert that it holds in all cases and with absolute iron, which objective reigns supreme?


    1. That criminals be punished
    2. That the innocent not be punished


    Please discuss.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume



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  3. #2

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    That the innocent not be punished.
    Everyone is a criminal today...

    And........................The government we suffer under isn't suitable to determine what constitutes a "crime" let alone mete out punishment.
    Last edited by tod evans; 04-19-2017 at 08:33 AM.

  4. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Assuming the dichotomy, I assert that it holds in all cases and with absolute iron, which objective reigns supreme?


    1. That criminals be punished
    2. That the innocent not be punished


    Please discuss.
    Really? Not even close!



    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Everyone is a criminal today...

    And........................The government we suffer under isn't suitable to determine what constitutes a "crime" let alone met out punishment.
    Kinda what I was thinking... the government has demonstrated that it believes politicians on the take, war criminals, wall street crooks, banksters & the like aren't criminals, while jaywalkers, pot smokers, constitutionalists (you know... that crowd) should be surveilled &/or jailed.

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Really? Not even close!
    Yes, really and what's not even close... and to what?
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Everyone is a criminal today...
    Positive response to normative question.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  8. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Yes, really and what's not even close... and to what?
    ?? Objective 2 reigns supreme. And it's not even close to objective 1.

    Follow the logic of the thinkers I quoted. I think time had been leading them in the right direction.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  9. #8

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    All you guys that have replied thus far might want to do some research before you embarrass yourself again.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  10. #9

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    Obviously it is more important that innocent people not be punished for something they have not done. If John murders Jack, and you punish Larry for John's crime then there were 2 innocent lives taken.
    Freedom index

    ~Resident Badgiraffe





  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    ?? Objective 2 reigns supreme. And it's not even close to objective 1.
    Ah, OK... didn't grok clearly. Thanks.

    Follow the logic of the thinkers I quoted. I think time had been leading them in the right direction.
    I quite agree.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  12. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Really? Not even close!





    I would rather have liberty and know a criminal escaped temporal punishment than slavery and know everyone is "getting what they deserve."
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  13. #12

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    Since any judicial system inevitably errors, it's necessary to wrongly convict some innocents in order to rightfully convict criminals.

    The alternative is to never attempt to punish any criminals, which is obviously much worse (more innocents ultimately being victimized).
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  14. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Assuming the dichotomy, I assert that it holds in all cases and with absolute iron, which objective reigns supreme?


    1. That criminals be punished
    2. That the innocent not be punished


    Please discuss.
    By whom?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  15. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    By whom?
    Does it matter?

    State or Private Defense Agency, the same tension exists.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Does it matter?

    State or Private Defense Agency, the same tension exists.
    There is no tension
    Justice demands that the guilty be held accountable for his crime. No matter how elaborate the cyst-em, imprisonment of the innocent is a crime. The individuals responsible should face justice. In most cases, the state or PDA is not required for this.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    There is no tension
    Justice demands that the guilty be held accountable for his crime. No matter how elaborate the cyst-em, imprisonment of the innocent is a crime. The individuals responsible should face justice. In most cases, the state or PDA is not required for this.
    Explain to me how any judicial system (state or stateless) could be 100% accurate in determining who is guilty and who is innocent.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Explain to me how any judicial system (state or stateless) could be 100% accurate in determining who is guilty and who is innocent.
    That's precisely my point. Your "gotta break some eggs yadda yadda omelette" argument does not equate to "justice", merely half-assed order.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  19. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    That's precisely my point. Your "gotta break some eggs yadda yadda omelette" argument does not equate to "justice", merely half-assed order.
    But my point is that there is no possible alternative, except to not even attempt to punish any criminals.

    Do you disagree? If so, then - again - explain to me how any judicial system could have 100% accuracy in determining guilt.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  20. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    But my point is that there is no possible alternative, except to not even attempt to punish any criminals.

    Do you disagree? If so, then - again - explain to me how any judicial system could have 100% accuracy in determining guilt.
    You are arguing from pragmatism?
    "It may be flawed, but it's the best system we have."
    It's not Justice .
    An example: Some dude kills a family member. The cops got no evidence, but he brags to you that he did it (heresay). So you blow him away. Is this justice?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    You are arguing from pragmatism?
    I'm arguing from simple facts - like, the fact that no human judge (whether his employer is a state or a private company) is infallible.

    Mistakes will happen, even if everyone is perfectly well-intended.

    In light of this reality, you have two choices:

    (1) accept the trade-off

    (2) oppose prosecution of criminals altogether

    I choose option #1, because the result is less bad.

    Which do you choose?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  22. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm arguing from simple facts - like, the fact that no human judge (whether his employer is a state or a private company) is infallible.

    Mistakes will happen, even if everyone is perfectly well-intended.

    In light of this reality, you have two choices:

    (1) accept the trade-off

    (2) oppose prosecution of criminals altogether

    I choose option #1, because the result is less bad.

    Which do you choose?
    I choose 2, given my example, which you didn't weigh in on.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I choose 2
    So, just to be clear, you're saying you oppose any and all attempts to prosecute criminals for their crimes?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, just to be clear, you're saying you oppose any and all attempts to prosecute criminals for their crimes?
    If innocents are caged as a result.
    Gonna answer my question, Rev?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    If innocents are caged as a result.
    Only caged? Or other punishments also (made to pay restitution, for instance)?

    Gonna answer my question, Rev?
    I wasn't sure what you were getting at with your question. Here's what you said:

    An example: Some dude kills a family member. The cops got no evidence, but he brags to you that he did it (heresay). So you blow him away. Is this justice?
    No, that doesn't sound like justice: sounds like conviction without sufficient evidence.

    ...but I'm not sure what this has to do with what I've said.

    My point is that, even if the standard for conviction is extraordinarily high, there will sometimes be mistakes.

    Even DNA evidence can be wrong, though the odds may be millions to one.

    Point is, there is no way to punish criminals at all unless you're willing to accept some risk, however small, of convicting innocent people.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No, that doesn't sound like justice: sounds like conviction without sufficient evidence.

    ...but I'm not sure what this has to do with what I've said.
    A confession is not sufficient evidence?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  27. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    A confession is not sufficient evidence?
    Am I someone testifying in court (i.e. hearsay), or the judge, or...?

    I guess I didn't understand your hypothetical.

    In any event, I say again, the point is, whatever the standard of evidence, whatever you think would be a fair procedure for trying people accused of crimes, there is inevitably a risk of error.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 04-19-2017 at 09:33 PM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Am I someone testifying in court (i.e. hearsay), or the judge, or...?

    I guess I didn't understand your hypothetical.
    It's simple.
    A crime was committed, an individual brags to you that he did it. He even gives detail in his account.
    The police can't arrest him, as they have no evidence. So you kill him. Is this justice?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It's simple.
    A crime was committed, an individual brags to you that he did it. He even gives detail in his account.
    The police can't arrest him, as they have no evidence. So you kill him. Is this justice?
    Ah, vigilantism, I see. Well, I oppose vigilantism in principle for other reasons, but, putting that aside, yea, I'd be inclined to say that a confession is sufficient, supposing of course that it's credible, I have no reason to think he's joking/drunk, etc, etc - not that I'd be personally interested in carrying out the sentence.

    Now, as to my point, do you acknowledge that any procedure for establishing guilt is fallible?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Ah, vigilantism, I see. Well, I oppose vigilantism in principle for other reasons, but, putting that aside, yea, I'd be inclined to say that a confession is sufficient, supposing of course that it's credible, I have no reason to think he's joking/drunk, etc, etc - not that I'd be personally interested in carrying out the sentence.

    Now, as to my point, do you acknowledge that any procedure for establishing guilt is fallible?
    In what ways are the system we have fallible?
    Last edited by otherone; 04-19-2017 at 09:45 PM.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    no.
    Alright. So lay out for me the procedure for determining guilt/innocence which would be infallible.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken

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