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Thread: What is more important?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Alright. So lay out for me the procedure for determining guilt/innocence which would be infallible.
    Do you want me to make a list of all the system's failings? It would take all night.
    Here's a start:
    First: Eliminate victimless crime.
    Second: Mandate that actual peers are jurors
    Third: Instruct jurors about nullification
    Fourth: Reject any case that is purely circumstantial
    Fifth: Mandate attorney representation for all police interrogations.
    I could go on, but it's bedtime.

    edit: Forgot to add the elimination of Qualified Immunity.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Do you want me to make a list of all the system's failings? It would take all night.
    Here's a start:
    First: Eliminate victimless crime.
    Second: Mandate that actual peers are jurors
    Third: Instruct jurors about nullification
    Fourth: Reject any case that is purely circumstantial
    Fifth: Mandate attorney representation for all police interrogations.
    I could go on, but it's bedtime.
    And you think those changes would mean that no innocent person would ever be convicted?

    It would be impossible?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And you think those changes would mean that no innocent person would ever be convicted?

    It would be impossible?
    That was your dichotomy, not mine.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    That was your dichotomy, not mine.
    That's not "my dichotomy," that's logic.

    Either conviction of innocents is possible or it is not: A or not-A.

    Which is it?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's not "my dichotomy," that's logic.

    Either conviction of innocents is possible or it is not: A or not-A.

    Which is it?
    That's not logic, it's a false choice. What you are saying is the system can never know whether an individual is guilty of a crime or not.
    Do you not convict an individual who goes on a videotaped shooting spree, just in case he's innocent?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    That's not logic, it's a false choice.
    It is logic, the law of non-contradiction: innocents can be convicted, or innocents cannot be convicted - there is no possible third option.

    What you are saying is the system can never know whether an individual is guilty of a crime or not.
    I'm saying that the system (whatever system, however organized) cannot know with 100% certainty that every single person convicted is guilty.

    That, even if the odds of convicting an innocent person are 1 in 100 trillion, sooner or later, an innocent person will be convicted.

    Do you not convict an individual who goes on a videotaped shooting spree, just in case he's innocent?
    I'm saying you do convict that person, because the odds of him being innocent are tiny, and society will collapse if criminals are not prosecuted, so it's worth it to risk a 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 chance of convicting an innocent person. It is you who are, apparently, saying that he should not be convicted; that it's better to allow every criminal in the world to go free than to take the tiniest risk of convicting an innocent person.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm saying you do convict that person, because the odds of him being innocent are tiny
    Of course. You convict only those with incontrovertible evidence. That way, innocents aren't imprisoned. Problem solved. It's the "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" approach that fouls things up. IRT your opinion that the inevitable conviction of an innocent keeps the streets safe, remember that when a guilty party is not held accountable because they got the wrong guy, he is still free to commit crimes.
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Of course. You convict only those with incontrovertible evidence. That way, innocents aren't imprisoned. Problem solved.
    There is no such thing as incontrovertible evidence; it's always a matter of probability (not certainty).

    A. The vast majority of crimes would never be solved if we required video tape of them doing it, or DNA, etc.

    B. Even when there is video, DNA, etc, that's still not 100% certain (how about planted evidence?).

    Bottom line: you have two options - (a) accept a risk [however small] of convicting innocents, or (b) prosecute no one for nothing.

    Once again, I choose the former, because a world of criminals run-rampant will result in far more innocents being victimized, in the end.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    There is no such thing as incontrovertible evidence; it's always a matter of probability (not certainty).

    A. The vast majority of crimes would never be solved if we required video tape of them doing it, or DNA, etc.

    B. Even when there is video, DNA, etc, that's still not 100% certain (how about planted evidence?).

    Bottom line: you have two options - (a) accept a risk [however small] of convicting innocents, or (b) prosecute no one for nothing.

    Once again, I choose the former, because a world of criminals run-rampant will result in far more innocents being victimized, in the end.
    What is the purpose of a Justice System?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    What is the purpose of a Justice System?
    To secure property rights by punishing those who violate them.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    To secure property rights by punishing those who violate them.
    Does the system do this?
    End the Empire- Restore the Republic- Repeal the 17th

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Does the system do this?
    The existing system?

    To some extent, it could be much better obviously.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H.L. Mencken

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Since any judicial system inevitably errors, it's necessary to wrongly convict some innocents in order to rightfully convict criminals.

    The alternative is to never attempt to punish any criminals, which is obviously much worse (more innocents ultimately being victimized).
    Really? How do you reason this, because the logic is not at all apparent.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  15. #44

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    Your thinking here is deeply flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    But my point is that there is no possible alternative, except to not even attempt to punish any criminals.
    False dichotomy FAIL. You are saying that one must accept the wrongful conviction of innocents or do nothing pursuant to justice. That's nuttier than squirrel poo.

    Do you disagree?
    I'm think that I do.

    If so, then - again - explain to me how any judicial system could have 100% accuracy in determining guilt.
    100% accuracy at WHAT is the question. Such a system can err on the side of option 2 such that some guilty escape justice (likely temporarily) and nobody innocent is likely to be wrongly held accountable. That is how you fix the problem in the real world. You also enact law that puts the most draconian punishments on anyone in the judicial and investigative chains knowingly withholding exculpatory evident. Prosecutors, police, and even defense attorneys found to have done so should spend the rest of their lives in solitary confinement, and be given a cyanide capsule which they may elect to take at any time during their imprisonment. I would attach as further risk the loss of all personal properties including jointly owned estates, say, with one's spouse. That places the threat at the feet of relatives, children, and so forth. This business of the public trust should be taken seriously, or we should openly abandon it and more properly call it what it damned nearly is: a free for all.

    Until the risks attaching to tyranny grossly outstrip the benefits, we are going to continue to suffer under the Man's thumb. It is quite that simple.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

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