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Thread: My first and last official business thread. [Metric Reserve]

  1. #1

    Default My first and last official business thread. [Metric Reserve]

    "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." - Proverbs 11:1

    Give wiz some money: https://www.paypal.me/wizardwatson
    Follow wiz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wizardwatson
    Read wiz's blog: http://wizardwatson.blogspot.com/
    Subscribe to wiz's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/feerbase

    I made a website/application. It's pretty much a prototype at this point but it's functional and you can sign in and use it and stuff.

    www.metricreserve.com

    Code is here:
    https://github.com/wizardwatson/metricreserve

    It is a viable replacement (in it's final form) for replacing the current banking system. It allows regular people to just bank themselves using whatever currency they want. It may be my opinion, but it's a highly educated opinion with years of study backing it up.

    If you want sound money you can use it.
    If you want to bank with Bitcoin you can use it for that too.
    If you want to bank with dollars but outside the Federal Reserve system, it works for that also.

    The documentation on the site is a bit skimpy but it's coming slowly. It just went live today. I've been working on it (coding-wise) pretty much for two months straight in addition to my normal job, although the idea and project itself has been going on and off for me for over 10 years. It predates my time here at RPF.

    If you're interested in learning, it may take a while to grasp exactly how it works, but that's what this thread is for.

    Think it needs an improvement? I'm all ears.
    Think you can do better? Code is open source. Change it, make it better. I can help you with ideas.

    I'm available for hire and general trolling of corporate/government shills, and pseudo-intellectuals. Donations are also appreciated. Just $5 can feed wiz bologna and cheese for a week.

    ...

    On a serious note:

    To me the most important thing is educating an initial group of people about exactly what the metric reserve idea is. It's built, so it's obvious it's a real thing, next question is what is it good for? If we're serious about alternatives to the Fed this is my 10K+ contribution to the discussion. If we're not, then well I can hone my Call of Duty Black Ops II: Zombies skills.

    All I've heard for years is sound money this and that. What is preventing us from using sound money? Now, officially, I can say "nothing but us".

    So click on over and sign up, until you're confused, then come back over here and ask for help. You don't have to "use it" use it. But you can help just by test driving and creating an account. You simply sign in with your google account. It only exposes your email address associated with your google account internally, other users don't even see that. So you aren't revealing anything special by signing up and it isn't going to ask you for any private info.

    At the moment my friend, who happens to be the one who first turned me on to Ron Paul is my only member at www.metricreserve.com.

    poopeater69, thank you for all your help over the years!

    I say this is my first and last thread because this project was my original impetus to even be part of the movement. It was always about solution to money problem for me. So in a way, it's my first "official" thread and really last as well. Because I doubt I personally will see taking the lead on any other type of project as important until this is off the ground, if that ever happens.

    Anyway, certainly I've watching this thread if anyone has any questions. Otherwise I'll periodically update with any new awesome features. Likely, though I will take somewhat of a breather after working on this for two months. At least shift gears, and go a bit slower. Wifey has been extremely supportive.

    And also, last point, RPF is not some place I'm "advertising" my site. I consider this place my base of operations. I'm not door-to-door'ing my way across the internet to sell this idea. If it doesn't grow legs here, there's little hope anywhere else. Ultimately, it's all in the Lords hands anyway.



    ttfn.

    What now?



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    Bookmarked, because I'm tired and hitting the sack. Will check it out.

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    STATUS REPORT:

    I've got a pretty short list of bugs/enhancements left.

    BUGS
    -suggested transfer formatting wonky on system modify
    -filter graph process url by cron request header
    -valid names should be 50 character or less
    -memo and message character limit at 200(?)
    -always positive amounts
    -remove transfer requests on disconnects
    -"AS" should show default account rather than username
    -alias changing/ticket closing/account deleting should redirect as breaks back/last functionality
    ENHANCEMENTS
    -allow regular users to create networks
    -polylines for reserve account view to show connections
    -move a lot of the system settings into system settings object (like debug and time constraints)
    -check on login if email is same as stored to reset
    -decimal setting per network, but overridden by metric account, need a setting command
    SECURITY
    -form noncing via sessions probably needed before production ready


    Besides these little things, my next major enhancment will be redoing the interface adding forms and more links. I kind of went with a "command line" style interface thinking it would be simpler (especially for phone users), but after feedback, it's overwhelming I think and new people really do need more intuitive forms for searching and connecting to people especially.

    After that I intend to integrate with Bitcoin, that is, make Bitcoin a bankable currency through metric, and hopefully figure out a way to blockchain the non-reserve side of metrics ledger.


    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Bookmarked, because I'm tired and hitting the sack. Will check it out.
    Nothing urgent. Getting it online was a psychological milestone for me, but it still has a ways to go before 1. people understand it and know about it 2. people actually intend or have designs to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by merkelstan View Post
    I did find this: http://www.metricreserve.com/documentation?p=graph

    I'll definitely keep an eye on this!

    Have you looked at the new blockchain projects like Ethereum
    https://www.ethereum.org/
    https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/smar...es-whitepaper/

    and Golem?


    https://golem.network/
    Yes, I'm very aware of blockchain technology and what it means. I even dabbled a little bit with the idea of developing something on ethereum chain. And as I commented above, it is my intent to eventually get metric's ledger on the blockchain, or at least implement a way to have metric tie itself to an existing blockchain and essentially have some metric networks simply be GUI's for blockchain based currencies.

    I'm glad you spotted that part of the documentation though. THAT! ...is the precise reason why I bothered to build metric reserve at all.

    It is my graph process algorithms that operate under the hood of metric that makes metric unique. There are protocols out there like interledger and ripple and the soon-to-exist bitcoin lightning network that use graph based routing, but it's doubtful anyone sees the usefulness of "proving connectedness" and "reserve evening" with respect to monetary theories, and even if, probably not in the way and for the reasons I have.

    It's a long road to take just to show off an algorithm, but the blockchain concept has still not propagated to regular people all that much, and look at how much it's being used and how popular it is. Doubtful my idea would even gain traction in the nerd community without working code.

    ...

    But from perspective of RPF and liberty movement, metric can work as is for any type of currency. Gold or silver for example.

    And also from the perspective of liberty movement and RPF, realize metric is a boilerplate website too. We could use it as a platform for other things besides just a "money thing". I would be interested in building other activism related tools into it.

    Anyway, lots of things to do, if we want.
    What now?

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    I learned about graphs in Comp. Sci. Still haven't figured-out what problem you're solving here. Do you mind if I ask naive questions here? Maybe other readers have the same ones.

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    I have set up an account and done some various commands.

    What exactly is the use case here? That is: how do I use it?

    Is it just to keep track of transactions? And then you have to get together and actually have money change hands later?
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    I have set up an account and done some various commands.

    What exactly is the use case here? That is: how do I use it?

    Is it just to keep track of transactions? And then you have to get together and actually have money change hands later?
    Use case is it's really just banking. Think of federal reserve. Each bank that belongs to the federal reserve system follows a protocol set by the Fed board. In metric reserve every account is essentially a bank and the protocol is simple: 1. Every bank holds an equal amount of reserves. 2. Reserves are only distributed via direct network "connections". The algorithm tells you every 15 minutes (just current setting) what is the optimal amount to pass to your connections to reach equilibrium.

    As to "why" this is an optimal arrangement is an economics question.

    Thanks for signing on!

    Cool, that you figured out the commands on your own. I made some changes today that make searching easier. By going to the search page and typing in "wizardwatson" you should see a link to my account. On that page type "connect". "just_dollars" has me and the other guy on it. Currently we are on the same tree. Once you've connected (I'll have to return the connection, until then it's just a request) and the graph process recognizes we are connected, we can make payments.

    Simple as that really.

    Yes, I need more documentation, and will try to make a video in the future with some screenshots. It's very early stages and still making major changes to the program but I appreciate you being a early tester.
    What now?

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    Ahh, each account is a bank. Thanks for the explanation. I'm starting to get it, though my understanding is still quite fuzzy.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Ahh, each account is a bank. Thanks for the explanation. I'm starting to get it, though my understanding is still quite fuzzy.
    Are you a programmer? Just curious if that midas thing is your project.

    I noticed you put 3.14159 as an amount.

    I added a new command today to change decimal places. Haven't put in docs yet*. "decimals [number of decimals]" which can be one through ten. So your balance shows 103.14 but internally everything is stored as a 64 bit integer and uses the network conversion rate. The dollar network is set at 10000 to 1.

    Bitcoin network I set up is 10 billion to 1, so one satoshi is 100 internally. I'm not familiar with gold but if we set up a gold network I assume it would be ounces or grams or something. But when you set up a network the conversion rate is important. You want to make sure you are setting it high enough to account for small values.

    Just an FYI

    *EDIT: "decimals" command now in the command reference
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 04-18-2017 at 06:54 PM.
    What now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Ahh, each account is a bank. Thanks for the explanation. I'm starting to get it, though my understanding is still quite fuzzy.
    ...also, noticed you tagged me with a ticket! lol.

    It isn't documented anywhere really, but a ticket is basically the beginnings of a built in POS system. You can create tickets for tabs at a bar, or for products, or for anything you want to be paid for. "Tagging" someone makes the ticket show up on their account, though I need to make it more obvious. Right now you have to go to the "tickets" page on your account to see tags from others.

    If I pay the ticket it removes my tag. But you still have to delete it.

    Also, the QR code will link to the page. (Which had a bug which I fixed, so thanks for helping me find that one!)

    Which brings me to another point. I built the interface for phones and mobile. I haven't gotten to the stage of creating a nice looking desktop format yet, but internally it does know which kind of device is looking at the site. So I do realize it's a little weird looking on desktop, but once I've got the interface nailed down mostly, I'll make templates for desktop. But until it's mostly finalized don't want to have to maintain corrections and interface changes for two different template styles.
    What now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by merkelstan View Post
    I learned about graphs in Comp. Sci. Still haven't figured-out what problem you're solving here. Do you mind if I ask naive questions here? Maybe other readers have the same ones.
    By all means. Ask away. The mission at this point is to find the right communication to explain what exactly metric reserve is doing and why. And this thread is more than just marketing, it's also likely where the documentation will come from.

    You and helmuth_hubener both have same question really. What problem does it solve?

    The problem is related to payment clearing. When you put your money in a traditional bank, you don't actually hold it. Rather the bank holds it and you get the benefit of their payment network. Most people use the federal reserve system. You can take your money out of the bank and put it into a non-federal reserve bank like a credit union, but if that credit union issues you a visa or mastercard, likely you would never notice the difference.

    If you don't have it in a bank you don't don't get the benefit of a payment network. Once it's cash "you" are the bank. The payment network is now physical transfer. Many people don't like cash though, especially businesses who are worried about theft.

    Regular people need banks for this payment network service. The other thing banks do, loan money, isn't really related to the payment network service at all. It can be completely separate. Fractional reserve banking is allowed to take place simply because of how banking laws are set up. And those laws were made by bankers. Old money that has existed before this country existed. But fractional reserve banking is not necessary to the basic function of banking which is holding value to facilitate a payment network. And as many of us who have listened to Ron Paul know, it is in fact an unsound practice.

    So what would 100% reserve banking look like? And how much would you charge for the service? And would it even matter to use if if 99% of everyone else is fractional reserve banking all around you?

    If you wanted to start a "bank" you'd need a lot of money. Laws require a substantial amount of capital and fees. And forfeiting your right to loan out your deposits would make you a crazy person since that's how you're expected to make money.

    But that's where the internet comes in. "Banking" is really just a payment network and the ability to put money into the system and take money out. Metric Reserve posits this idea: What if everyone simply distributed the reserves evenly? And instead of one really wealthy individual being required to have a $1 million dollar capital investment (being a rich connected person) who is bribed with ability to loan out poor people's money for no justifiable reason other than the fact that he previously accumulated vast sums of money somehow, we allow everyone to be a bank.

    By simply connecting to people you trust and keeping the reserves evenly distributed you facilitate the operation of a free payment network that gravitates towards an elastic equilibrium of liquidity (or so says wizardwatson).

    But how do we decide HOW to distribute the reserves? What is the shape of the network? If I'm connected to 20 people and you're connected to 10 and so on and so on, how do we know which direction to pass excess reserves and with people connecting and disconnecting it's even more complicated.

    That's what metrics algorithms solve.

    The primary algorithm determines islands of connected individuals. It determines whether a path exists between you and some set of users. If so, you are all on the same payment network.

    The secondary algorithm takes each island of connectivity, and applies an "evening" algorithm, which in the interface shows up as a "suggested transfer".

    Algorithm 1 Pseudocode:

    algorith 1():

    Algorithm 1 Pseudocode:

    WhileAccountsRemainInNetwork():

    GetRandomAccount()

    If AccountHasChildren()
    StartNewIsland(seed=Account)
    Else
    Account = Orphan
    EndIf

    StartNewIsland(seed)
    GetSeedsChildren()
    level=1
    For each child in children:
    AddToThisIsland(child,level=i)
    var_AllLevelsScannedForChildren = False
    while var_AllLevelsScannedForChildren = False:
    ScanLevelForChildren():
    if ThisLevelHasChildren():
    IfSomeChildrenRedundant():
    RemoveFromListToAdd()
    AddToThisIsland(children,level=i+1)
    next_level=i+1
    else
    var_AllLevelsScannedForChildren = True

    If you understand this, then you can see that essentially it creates a set of "trees" that proves that a path exists between all accounts on a specific tree. And a set or orphans who aren't connecting to anyone. This is all reported from the "view graph" link in the application.

    The secondary algorithm then takes the resulting "trees" from the first algorithm and applies an "evening" algorithm, that works its way up from the deepest descendent(child) in the tree, level by level, towards the seed. At each level it looks at a group of children under a parent on the level above. If any of the children have more than the average for the tree, they give the excess to the parent. The algorithm then moves to the next set of children/parent on that level and does the same thing until that level is finished.

    Then it moves up a level, only this time each child is checked for excess and first gives it to its deficient children. If that child has any left over it then passes it up towards the parent as on the bottom level. And so on, and so on.

    So basically:

    Algorithm 2 Pseudocode:

    for i = max_level to 1, step -1:
    if i == max_level: # max descendant level
    all should give excess reserves to parent
    elseif i == 1: # seed level
    seed should distribute ALL excess reserves to children
    else:
    Evenly distribute excess reserves to children UNTIL they have reached average
    if any remains:
    all should give excess reserves to parent
    This is highly compressed. Because of the way the data is actually set up in the cloud setup I'm using, and all the various checks and storage, etc. these two algorithms are a couple thousand lines of code.

    Now, you could of course do this process with pencil and paper. But you'd have to redo it everytime existing banks and networks changed, or came into being or went out of business. Metric Reserve algorithms do this every 15 minutes automatically.

    So that is the problem it solves that's "unique". Determines who is on a payment tree for a specific currency/network, and then tells the participating nodes on that network where the reserves need to flow so that everyone functions as a similar "escrow"/hub for moving reserves in/out of the system.

    That's what metric solves technically. What it solves economically, in my opinion, is another long post for later.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 04-18-2017 at 08:30 PM.
    What now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Are you a programmer? Just curious if that midas thing is your project.
    'Tis.

    I would not say I am a programmer, but I have and do program, in order to accomplish things that need to be done.

    I noticed you put 3.14159 as an amount.

    I added a new command today to change decimal places. Haven't put in docs yet*. "decimals [number of decimals]" which can be one through ten. So your balance shows 103.14 but internally everything is stored as a 64 bit integer and uses the network conversion rate.
    Actually 3.14159265358979. Yeah, just wanted to see what would happen.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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    "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." - Proverbs 11:1

    Exactly.

    Thank you for your work on this.

    "If you're interested in learning, it may take a while to grasp exactly how it works, but that's what this thread is for."

    I understand the value of just weight and the value of the liberty to choose a truthful scale, but please learn me up on some basics of operating this scale.

    Let's say my current user name is Paul Krugman. How would I change my user name from Paul Krugman to Von Mises?
    What exactly would I enter into the COMMAND box?

    Thank you.

    (I have no shame when it comes to my ignorance of code - the obvious CONTEXT & Command Reference thing is not obvious to me- thank you for your patience)
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people." Ron Paul

    Please watch, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report


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    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." - Proverbs 11:1

    Exactly.

    Thank you for your work on this.

    "If you're interested in learning, it may take a while to grasp exactly how it works, but that's what this thread is for."

    I understand the value of just weight and the value of the liberty to choose a truthful scale, but please learn me up on some basics of operating this scale.

    Let's say my current user name is Paul Krugman. How would I change my user name from Paul Krugman to Von Mises?
    What exactly would I enter into the COMMAND box?

    Thank you.

    (I have no shame when it comes to my ignorance of code - the obvious CONTEXT & Command Reference thing is not obvious to me- thank you for your patience)
    Thanks for signing up. And thanks for asking basic questions. I plan to add more obvious forms. Lots of things to do really.

    I'm guessing your current name is "user491383kn".

    To change your username type:

    username change bunklocoempire

    in the command field. Or whatever you want your username to be.

    Command reference is located here:
    http://www.metricreserve.com/documen...mand_reference


    Context really just refers to what page you are on. Underneath the command field context and user you are is printed on the screen. So when the command reference says "message" is the only command in the "context of messages", that just means you can only use the message command on the messages page.

    It is confusing. A friend of mine I've talked with regularly about this who is also a user here and there, has given me a lot of feedback. More forms and links needed basically. It's in the works.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 04-20-2017 at 06:17 PM.
    What now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    So that is the problem it solves that's "unique". Determines who is on a payment tree for a specific currency/network, and then tells the participating nodes on that network where the reserves need to flow so that everyone functions as a similar "escrow"/hub for moving reserves in/out of the system.
    So, it "advises" the different banks who needs more reserves, is that it?

    Does the amount of reserves advised take into account different withdrawal rates, or literally "even out" everything as you say, attempting to make all nodes have equal reserves?

    A busy city branch, for instance, might need more reserves than a quiet country one.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    So, it "advises" the different banks who needs more reserves, is that it?

    Does the amount of reserves advised take into account different withdrawal rates, or literally "even out" everything as you say, attempting to make all nodes have equal reserves?

    A busy city branch, for instance, might need more reserves than a quiet country one.
    If you want to actually operate a physical ATM or physical bank as a service, then certainly you would need extra cash or gold or whatever currency to give to your customers. You could charge a small fee for large withdrawals. But this is outside the scope of what metric is designed for (currently anyway).

    Personally, I think there's a dangerous amount of liquidity in circulation. "Fear of deflation" is used to justify insane paper money injections that are responsible for 10's of trillions in derivatives bubbles. metric itself I see as a counter-force to this, but certainly if there's a market for big cash withdrawals, there's nothing wrong with a metric user hoarding cash to service that market.

    But in my opinion, incorporating that behavior (uneven reserve holdings to accomodate certain markets) into the protocol of metric would go against the grain of its intent.
    What now?

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    What is it designed for, then? I'm trying to understand.

    Could you give us a specific example or two of something one could do with Metric? I know you have already answered this, but don't get frustrated: I didn't understand. If I didn't understand, I'm pretty sure no one understands. Just a simple, simple, simple explanation of what in the world we could use this for!! . Pretend I'm ten years old.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    What is it designed for, then? I'm trying to understand.

    Could you give us a specific example or two of something one could do with Metric? I know you have already answered this, but don't get frustrated: I didn't understand. If I didn't understand, I'm pretty sure no one understands. Just a simple, simple, simple explanation of what in the world we could use this for!! . Pretend I'm ten years old.
    It is a banking system.

    Specifically, it is a multi-currency banking system. Each network represents a different currency. It is not "production" ready, not even sure if it's legal, but it can be used in its current form. In other words, I'm still looking for bugs, and changing things but it does actually work in its current form.

    Probably in the future I'll write something to where anyone can create a network, but right now it's admin only. I could always create one for someone if they ask.

    Currently there are two networks. One that's for federal reserve notes called "just_dollars" and one to represent bitcoin called "just_bitcoin".

    Currently "just_dollars" has three members. wizardwatson (me), poopeater69 (an old friend of mine), and helmuth_hubener. Currently only me and poopeater69 are connected. Therefore, we can pay each other because there is a path of connections between us. If you were connected to me you could pay me or poopeater69.

    I just sent you a connection request. You should see it now on your "just_dollars" account. To authorize the connection you just need to go to my account and type "connect".

    Now for the magic.

    Me and poopeater only have $5 in reserve registered. You claim to have $103.14. If you connect, the graph process algo (which runs every 15 minutes) is going to tell you to give me or poopeater69 about $65.43 so that you only retain $37.71 (the average for the network). Depending on how the graph algorithm structures the tree in this iteration it may tell you to give all of it to me (and then next iteration I will give have what you gave me to poopeater) or it may suggest you give $32 to each of us.

    If you simply modify your reserves to $5 it won't tell you to give anything.

    So what is happening? What is happening is you have control over how much money you put into it, and how much money you take out. The consequences are it affects those you are connected to. It signals things.

    And of course, in addition to reserve activity you can pay anyone on your connected network (known as a tree). You can see currently on the "view graph" link you are an orphan, because you aren't connected to anyone on the network.
    What now?

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    What you need to understand about metric is the reserves are MEANT to move like molasses. Because that is the "real money" so to speak. Your reserve balance is what you physically have. The "network balance" is what the system owes you. What you have the right to withdraw in reserves.

    For instance if I have $100 balance, but the average balance is $20, that means everyone is holding $20 in reserve. It would take me perhaps 5 days to withdraw that unless I called in favors from connections. But it would take everyone else the same amount of time too.

    But what if it disnintegrates! What if other nodes steal the money! All I can say to these types of charges is I've been thinking about this model for a good 8 years. Economically it works. I think. Or at least, I haven't seen or learned anything that says it isn't an alternative that can solve the problems with current banking. It is very non-intuitive. But so are lots of other ideas.

    The fact that everything moves slow means you will know before you ever put $100 how it works and moves, and how sound it is. Of course no one will see that until the user base gets a little further than 3.

    If someone said I'll sell you my bitcoin for $500 in 2012 they would have laughed at you. Now they would still laugh at you but for the opposite reason.

    Similarly, you can put loose change into metric reserve right now with little risk. In the future you may see little risk in putting $100 into it.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 04-20-2017 at 08:31 PM.
    What now?

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    It seems very cool, it seems very promising. I'm just trying to get more.... concrete.

    You write, "In the future you may see little risk in putting $100 into it."

    How do I actually put it in, though? I mean, I actually have a hundred dollar bill in my pocket right now. And, let me look.... yep, a five, too. Do I just "consider" the hundred and part of the five as earmarked as my reserve for Metric? I mean, I haven't mailed the money to anyone. It's still in my pocket. Is that a problem, or is that how the system's designed?

    You also wrote: "Currently "just_dollars" has three members. wizardwatson (me), poopeater69 (an old friend of mine), and helmuth_hubener. Currently only me and poopeater69 are connected. Therefore, we can pay each other because there is a path of connections between us. If you were connected to me you could pay me or poopeater69."

    OK. How could I pay you? I understand the commands, but... after I run the command, it seems that in real life, you do not have any more money than before. And my money is still just as much in my pocket as it was before. In order to *actually* pay you, wouldn't I have to put the money in an envelope, stamp it, and mail it to you?

    One more final important question. You wrote: "Me and poopeater only have $5 in reserve registered. You claim to have $103.14. If you connect, the graph process algo (which runs every 15 minutes) is going to tell you to give me or poopeater69 about $65.43 so that you only retain $37.71 (the average for the network). Depending on how the graph algorithm structures the tree in this iteration it may tell you to give all of it to me (and then next iteration I will give have what you gave me to poopeater) or it may suggest you give $32 to each of us."

    Why would I want to do this? What am I paying you guys for? I don't know about you, but when I give $32 to someone, it is generally because I am getting something in return, like an oil change. What is the advantage to me to lose $65.43?

    Thanks for your answers! And thanks for doing this! It clearly was a ton of work.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    It seems very cool, it seems very promising. I'm just trying to get more.... concrete.

    You write, "In the future you may see little risk in putting $100 into it."

    How do I actually put it in, though? I mean, I actually have a hundred dollar bill in my pocket right now. And, let me look.... yep, a five, too. Do I just "consider" the hundred and part of the five as earmarked as my reserve for Metric? I mean, I haven't mailed the money to anyone. It's still in my pocket. Is that a problem, or is that how the system's designed?
    Yes, that's exactly what you do. You "consider it earmarked" and you broadcast that fact to the network. I haven't quite figured out how metric will exist legally, but essentially you are contracting with your peers that any money you enter as "reserves" is part of the network.

    Now of course if you enter $103.14 as you have, well, that's also your balance. You haven't transferred any either, so you are a zero. You are holding as much in reserves as your balance is. If you spent your balance your reserve doesn't change.

    Example: Say you connected to me and thus were on the network and could make payments. Currently you have $103.14 in reserve and the other two people have $5. If you then buy a $100 worth of website consulation services from me, then my network balance would be $105, and yours would be $3.14. But my reserve balance is still $5 and yours is still $103.14. If you then leave the network without transferring those reserves, well then I made a mistake connecting to you as you just defrauded not only me, but anyone I've subsequently made payments to. But the "money", the network balance (rather than reserve balance) will fly around the network. Hence, everyone keeping average. Tomorrow I might pay you $100 for some gold thingies.

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    You also wrote: "Currently "just_dollars" has three members. wizardwatson (me), poopeater69 (an old friend of mine), and helmuth_hubener. Currently only me and poopeater69 are connected. Therefore, we can pay each other because there is a path of connections between us. If you were connected to me you could pay me or poopeater69."

    OK. How could I pay you? I understand the commands, but... after I run the command, it seems that in real life, you do not have any more money than before. And my money is still just as much in my pocket as it was before. In order to *actually* pay you, wouldn't I have to put the money in an envelope, stamp it, and mail it to you?
    Just like a bank deposit, a reserve deposit increases your balance. Once connected you can spend that balance with the "pay $X" command on another users account.

    The basic 3 primary actions/commands are these

    modify add [amount]
    modify subtract [amount]
    pay [amount]

    The first two commands work when on your account and affect reserve and network balance. The last when your on someone else's and it only affects network balance.

    So:

    "modify add" +reserve (you) +network (you) MAKE A DEPOSIT
    "modify subtract" -reserve (you) -network (you) MAKE A WITHDRAWAL
    "pay" -network (you) +network (other) MAKE A PAYMENT TO SOMEONE ELSE

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    One more final important question. You wrote: "Me and poopeater only have $5 in reserve registered. You claim to have $103.14. If you connect, the graph process algo (which runs every 15 minutes) is going to tell you to give me or poopeater69 about $65.43 so that you only retain $37.71 (the average for the network). Depending on how the graph algorithm structures the tree in this iteration it may tell you to give all of it to me (and then next iteration I will give have what you gave me to poopeater) or it may suggest you give $32 to each of us."

    Why would I want to do this? What am I paying you guys for? I don't know about you, but when I give $32 to someone, it is generally because I am getting something in return, like an oil change. What is the advantage to me to lose $65.43?

    Thanks for your answers! And thanks for doing this! It clearly was a ton of work.
    I'm super grateful you are asking these questions. It's the only way I'm going to improve the communication. I've been staring at it from the inside, so things that are obvious to me, might be completely obscure and I'm not realizing. This last question is another example.

    First point is you're confusing reserve transfers with balance transfers. When I said "give" I should have clarified I meant "transfer reserves". There is another set of commands we haven't gotten into yet. When you transfer reserves it does not affect your network balance. You still have $103.14, you are only transferring $65.43 in "reserves".

    I showed above that "modify" is how you modify your own reserve balance. But there are commands that deal with transferring reserves with your connections. One kind is for user defined transfers, and the other is for system suggested transfers.

    They are:

    (commands for user defined transfers):

    transfer request [amount]
    transfer cancel [amount]
    transfer deny [amount]
    transfer authorize [amount]

    (commands for system defined transfers):

    suggested request [amount]
    suggested cancel [amount]
    suggested deny [amount]
    suggested authorize [amount]

    So, when you transfer that $65.43 in the scenario I described it would be because the system suggested you do that. And to initiate that process you would do a "suggested request $65.43" on my account (or whoever it tells you) and I would do a "suggested authorize $65.43" AFTER I RECEIVE THE MONEY on your account.

    This last part is also part of your question. Actual transfer of currencies is outside the scope of metric reserve. You can do it however you want. Paypal, mail it, barter, lie, or whatever. This is a process that takes place between you and who you are connected to. But it isn't a payment. It's just reserves. We are all holding reserves for the integrity of the system.

    Now that I've clarified that you aren't "paying" this money, but in fact can still spend all your balance, there's still the point of "but I don't know you".

    This is an important point, and a very blunt fact about how metric reserve operates. Just like reserves aren't meant to move at the speed of light, your connections are also meant to remain stable. Think of your facebook friends or twitter followers. For most people they are roughly the same this month as they were last month. Metric will be the same way, which does create a "setup problem" in the early stages. In the early stages, in order for the connections to be "ubiquitous" and everyone be on the same network, some connections with people we don't know well will have to be forced.

    But the graphing process is very explicit and it's designed to not only tell you how the sets of users are split between "trees" but it can be geographically "designed" essentially for more optimal connectedness.

    In its general use in the future I don't see people randomly connecting with people on the internet. That would be dangerous and it should be made clear, anyone doing that is likely trying to siphon reserves. But in the early stages, I envision the connection network being built with specific intent with a community of users who understand what it's aiming at (*cough* *rpf* *cough*). Currently that community consists of 1 guy in a political forum.

    The good news is there's no need to use real money to build the network and test it. We can connect and create a user base before actually using it. And I've ran algorithms to determine how soon a network becomes "ubiquitous" and its not very large. Once a social graph gets around 10,000 people even RANDOMLY connecting with an average connection count of only around 6 people, most of those networks solve to be a single tree. Furthermore, it isn't even necessary as we slowly build the geographical connection network, as the metric graph process tells you every 15 minutes if anyone's off the main tree. Right now it's telling me that 2 of the 3 users in the "just_dollars" network are on one tree, and there's one orphan (you). So it's already telling me who needs to be connected. Do you see?

    So envision this. We all simply claim we have $5 and start connecting. Grow the tree first, figure out who are connections are going to be, get to know and trust them as far as reserve transferring, get the kinks worked out in the application before we ever go live.

    Thanks again for taking time to write up questions. I know as a prolific poster myself, how much time we spend writing these things.
    What now?






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