IL-Man gets dragged off and bloodied for refusing to give up seat on United flight

[otherone]

I totally agree. You can't just rip up contracts because they're unpopular.

sooo...beat the $#@! out of him?.

[Schifference]

I totally agree. You can't just rip up contracts because they're unpopular.

Tell that to a judge that won't honor a landlord contract with a non paying tenant. Tell that to the judge that won't honor the elderly man's wish and legal contracts regarding living wills.

[Carlybee]

[osan]

You are being disingenuous.

Oh really? You would accuse me with zero positive evidence of something with which I would never soil myself? Not sure what your motive is here. Apparently, unlike you, I am unwilling to lay claim to knowledge of your intentions when in fact I have none. I can only wonder what your purpose is here.

The fact they are overbooking prevents anybody from traveling like a human being.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Is it some attempt to take a stab at the "human dignity" tack?

Overbooking is done all the time. It helps maximize the efficiency of resource allocation. Companies are well within their rights to pursue such measures. The possibility of being bumped due to overbooking is written into every sales contract that results from the purchase of tickets. Is there any more free-market solution that this, that two parties contract voluntarily with various conditions stipulated in the contract? If a prospective passenger doesn't like the conditions, they are free to fly with another airline, travel by other means, or remain where they are. Nobody is twisting anybody's arms here.

Running an airline is nightmarishly complex. I am not an expert in those specific operations, but I have worked on similar models. Logistics and planning are tough at best. You think you just buy 2400 aircraft and start flying? I could go chapter and verse listing the challenges of such operations and how difficult it can be to optimize them, as well as the criticality of such optimizations to one's ability to make a profit. Sub-optimal scheduling will eat profits up so fast, you would not believe it.

So before you wax all point-fingery at the evil airlines, you would do well to gain a basic understanding of how such businesses operate and why they do what they do. Or do you believe that every airline does the same things because they are all evil and only looking to screw their customers?

If there were a viable competitive advantage in eliminating over-booking, do you not think at least one of the airlines would have made hay of it in their marketing? Perhaps you think they are all colluding to squeeze the passengers in oligopolistic unity?

The flights are packed to the gills with people which does not make anybody comfortable.

You cannot be serious. Comfortable? You want to talk about uncomfortable? Try taking a train across Europe for three days. How about when steam liners took days to get from the UK to NY. Now all you have to do is sit for 8 hours and you're there. And if the comfort is so all-fired important, buy a first-class ticket. If the price is too high, then I guess comfy really isn't that necessary.

Pretending the planes can fly people at 100% capacity is a sick joke.

I have been non literally hundreds of flights that had not one empty seat. It's done all the time and we always got to where we were going in good health. What, exactly, are you arguing for here? First-class seats for everyone at coach prices? Fine. How about we pass a law mandating it. Then in about a month you can go back to trains, driving for five days cross-country, riding a bicycle from NYC to LA, hitch-hike, walk, or just stay home.

Seriously, what is it you want to see and how is it to be provided without bankrupting the carriers? If you have no specifics, then I must conclude you are speaking gibberish.

[Madison320]

To have your bought and paid for property arbitrarily taken away from you, cops called on you and a beat down on top of it all, goes over the line, even for stupid meek and lazy AmeriKunts.

You don't own the seats on the plane when you buy a plane ticket.

Suppose you have your own car service to compete with Uber. You offer rides to people that live nearby at a discount with an agreement that if there's an emergency, and you need your car, you'll refund the ticket. At the time you need to give someone a ride that they reserved, your wife slips in the shower and is unconscious. You call your neighbor and tell him his ride is cancelled, there's an emergency. You carry her to the car to take her to the hospital only to find your neighbor sitting in your car waiting to be taken for his reserved ride. You tell him he needs to get out. He refuses. You try to pull him out of the car but he grabs onto the seat so you whack him over the head, and drag him out of the car. Was your action justified?

[Madison320]

Oh really? You would accuse me with zero positive evidence of something with which I would never soil myself? Not sure what your motive is here. Apparently, unlike you, I am unwilling to lay claim to knowledge of your intentions when in fact I have none. I can only wonder what your purpose is here.



I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Is it some attempt to take a stab at the "human dignity" tack?

Overbooking is done all the time. It helps maximize the efficiency of resource allocation. Companies are well within their rights to pursue such measures. The possibility of being bumped due to overbooking is written into every sales contract that results from the purchase of tickets. Is there any more free-market solution that this, that two parties contract voluntarily with various conditions stipulated in the contract? If a prospective passenger doesn't like the conditions, they are free to fly with another airline, travel by other means, or remain where they are. Nobody is twisting anybody's arms here.

Running an airline is nightmarishly complex. I am not an expert in those specific operations, but I have worked on similar models. Logistics and planning are tough at best. You think you just buy 2400 aircraft and start flying? I could go chapter and verse listing the challenges of such operations and how difficult it can be to optimize them, as well as the criticality of such optimizations to one's ability to make a profit. Sub-optimal scheduling will eat profits up so fast, you would not believe it.

So before you wax all point-fingery at the evil airlines, you would do well to gain a basic understanding of how such businesses operate and why they do what they do. Or do you believe that every airline does the same things because they are all evil and only looking to screw their customers?

If there were a viable competitive advantage in eliminating over-booking, do you not think at least one of the airlines would have made hay of it in their marketing? Perhaps you think they are all colluding to squeeze the passengers in oligopolistic unity?



You cannot be serious. Comfortable? You want to talk about uncomfortable? Try taking a train across Europe for three days. How about when steam liners took days to get from the UK to NY. Now all you have to do is sit for 8 hours and you're there. And if the comfort is so all-fired important, buy a first-class ticket. If the price is too high, then I guess comfy really isn't that necessary.



I have been non literally hundreds of flights that had not one empty seat. It's done all the time and we always got to where we were going in good health. What, exactly, are you arguing for here? First-class seats for everyone at coach prices? Fine. How about we pass a law mandating it. Then in about a month you can go back to trains, driving for five days cross-country, riding a bicycle from NYC to LA, hitch-hike, walk, or just stay home.

Seriously, what is it you want to see and how is it to be provided without bankrupting the carriers? If you have no specifics, then I must conclude you are speaking gibberish.

That was a great post.

[sparebulb]

This story is really bringing them out. (evidence: Danke)

A gay Asian actor, reprising the role of another gay Asian actor, blames Trump for the beating of a gay Asian airline passenger.

Makes perfect sense.

https://www.prisonplanet.com/star-tr...r-removal.html

[juleswin]

This has already been explained...this was NOT an overbooking situation.

From my last United flight eticket:

Notice - Overbooking of Flights - Airline flights may be overbooked, and there is a slight chance that a seat will not be available on a flight for which a person has a confirmed reservation. If the flight is overbooked, no one will be denied a seat until airline personnel first ask for volunteers willing to give up their reservation in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, the airline will deny boarding to other persons in accordance with its particular boarding priority. With few exceptions, including failure to comply with the carrier’s check-in deadlines, which are available upon request from the air carrier, persons, denied boarding involuntarily are entitled to compensation. The complete rules for the payment of compensation and each airline’s boarding priorities are available at all airport ticket counters and boarding locations. Some airlines do not apply these consumer protections to travel from some foreign countries, although other consumer protections may be available. Check with your airline or your travel agent.

Now, that is for an overbooking, which this was not.

This was ejecting paying a passenger in order to accommodate internal United transfer of airline staff.

This situation never should have gotten to this point, which is now what Munoz is saying.

The flight crew should have been accommodated in some other way, even if meant going to another airline, which happens often.

I sat next to a Delta pilot on a United flight to Newark a couple of months ago.

You assume that just because they are employees they weren't booked for the flight. Even employees get booked for flights and fly with tickets albeit discounted ones. The planes were overbooked according to them and he should have followed the order when he was instructed to get off the plane.

[Danke]

You assume that just because they are employees they weren't booked for the flight. Even employees get booked for flights and fly with tickets albeit discounted ones. The planes were overbooked according to them and he should have followed the order when he was instructed to get off the plane.

I'm guessing due to weather or maintenance, the plane at the next station needed another crew, maybe last minute. But yes, they get booked on flight, no discount, company does not charge crews to get into position for an assignment.

[ronpaulhawaii]

All airlines have their hands tied:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5

ASSuming the fare on such a short flight was $200 or less, $800 was the max by law that could be offered. (Your government rules, not United or other airlines). $1600 in his case as he was traveling with his wife.


Now, should the Customer Service Rep. have realized the had a nut case (https://www.thelayoff.com/t/MK1fXsP http://www.courier-journal.com/story...ast/100318320/ ) probably medicated up, and gone on to another passenger, yeah, probably. But it was the local cops that got unnecessarily physical.

I keep seeing this erroneous talking point. Airlines do not have their hands tied. While there are guidelines for the involuntary phase, the voluntary phase is wide open. Delta cheerfully paid one couple $11k to "volunteer" away a weekend... PR BS to me

and HI Danke!

[Danke]

I keep seeing this erroneous talking point. Airlines do not have their hands tied. While there are guidelines for the involuntary phase, the voluntary phase is wide open. Delta cheerfully paid one couple $11k to "volunteer" away a weekend... PR BS to me

and HI Danke!

That was $1000 a pop per persons for a family on multiple flights. So it added up throughout the delays (many flights) to be $11,000.


try again.

[ronpaulhawaii]

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

Voluntary Bumping

... DOT has not mandated the form or amount of compensation that airlines offer to volunteers.

[otherone]

does he still get the 800 bucks?

[ronpaulhawaii]

And it was a couple with a single child who volunteered to be bumped off of the originating flight, a few times over a weekend...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabe.../#5032e0164de1

[specsaregood]

All airlines have their hands tied:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5

ASSuming the fare on such a short flight was $200 or less, $800 was the max by law that could be offered. (Your government rules, not United or other airlines). $1600 in his case as he was traveling with his wife.

That link clearly says Involuntary boarding. So it doesn't seem like it would restrict voluntary. so is this how the airline uses that restriction to artificially add a bull$#@! ceiling to somebody volunteering to give up their seat? "Oh, nobody volunteered up to the ceiling for the involuntary phase, so instead of offering more we'll just move to involuntary where there is a ceiling and nothing they can do about it."

[Danke]

That link clearly says Involuntary boarding. So it doesn't seem like it would restrict voluntary. so is this how the airline uses that restriction to artificially add a bull$#@! ceiling to somebody volunteering to give up their seat? "Oh, nobody volunteered up to the ceiling for the involuntary phase, so instead of offering more we'll just move to involuntary where there is a ceiling and nothing they can do about it."

Hmm, using government imposed rules, maybe not smart, but dem are the rule in the " Contract for Carriage" You agree upon when you purchased the ticket.

[specsaregood]

Hmm, using government imposed rules, maybe not smart, but dem are the rule in the " Contract for Carriage" You agree upon when you purchased the ticket.

Which goes back to it being extremely poor customer service. Their hands were not "tied" they used government rules to try to save a buck and force him off when they had other options. There is no reason for you to defend this practice Danke.

[juleswin]

And it was a couple with a single child who volunteered to be bumped off of the originating flight, a few times over a weekend...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabe.../#5032e0164de1

Well it was $1300 per person per flight. The question still remains, what do you do when after a reasonable offer has been made and nobody agrees to give up their seats?

[euphemia]

This was not an overbooked flight. It was a sold out flight. If United needed the four people in Louisville the next day, they could have rented a van and driver for less than this impending lawsuit will cost. It only takes about 5 hours to drive there.

I don't think I have ever used United, but I never will.

[Danke]

Which goes back to it being extremely poor customer service. Their hands were not "tied" they used government rules to try to save a buck and force him off when they had other options. There is no reason for you to defend this practice Danke.

My bad. They should have upped the ante, to make it "voluntary." Symantics got the best of me.

[oyarde]

does he still get the 800 bucks?

My guess is more .

[oyarde]

sooo...beat the $#@! out of him?.

Well , deep down inside , that would be what all airline employees and airport cops wish for the customers . Think of them as TSA that make more money .

[Origanalist]

Hell, I don't even take ferries anymore since the last time when a cop went up and down the rows of cars with a dog sniffing everyone. Screw it, I'll drive.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Well it was $1300 per person per flight. The question still remains, what do you do when after a reasonable offer has been made and nobody agrees to give up their seats?

It's easy to sit in judgement of what is "reasonable" from the outside... Individuals privately know how urgent their need is and many have damn good reasons to keep their seats no matter the offer.

I know the bean counters want to avoid gouging paying out the ass for inconveniencing their customers, but that seems a small price to pay for the long term stability that overbooking facilitates.

Needless to say they could have chartered a Gulfstream for much less than what this will cost them in the long run...

[juleswin]

It's easy to sit in judgement of what is "reasonable" from the outside... Individuals privately know how urgent their need is and many have damn good reasons to keep their seats no matter the offer.

I know the bean counters want to avoid gouging paying out the ass for inconveniencing their customers, but that seems a small price to pay for the long term stability that overbooking facilitates.

Needless to say they could have chartered a Gulfstream for much less than what this will cost them in the long run...

And if they had to hire a gulfstream every time they had to remove someone from their seat, then they probably wouldn't be in business today. Anyone who bought the ticket should have known this was a possibility. But then again I don't think they considered running to an individual who cannot read the contract they signed when buying the ticket.

If I was the airline, I would consider suing the shyte out of the passenger for breach of contract. Make an example of him and other would shy away from misbehaving while flying.

[DGambler]

I didn't say your scenario isn't plausible. Just said it didn't happen here. The airline planned poorly, it should cost them. When I plan poorly, I eat it, I don't tell my customers to eat it. Ok, so they might lose millions, that means there was an awful lot of wiggle room between the $800 they were offering and "millions". I'd wager they would get a stampede of people offering to give up their seat for a measly 10k.

Exactly, they weren't offering fair market value for the seats, had they kept upping the price was, someone would have taken it.

[Danke]

And if they had to hire a gulfstream every time they had to remove someone from their seat, then they probably wouldn't be in business today. Anyone who bought the ticket should have known this was a possibility. But then again I don't think they considered running to an individual who cannot read the contract they signed when buying the ticket.

If I was the airline, I would consider suing the shyte out of the passenger for breach of contract. Make an example of him and other would shy away from misbehaving while flying.

what I have heard, he was "misbehaving" and that is why the cops were called. I can understand him being upset, his wife got up and left him there too.

but he seems to be mentally ill and/or medicated.

No no breach of contract is necessary if the crew decides someone is not fit to be on your flight.

[TheTexan]

what I have heard, he was "misbehaving" and that is why the cops were called. I can understand him being upset, his wife got up and left him there too.

but he seems to be mentally ill and/or medicated.

No no breach of contract is necessary if the crew decides someone is not fit to be on your flight.

That guy must have been crazy, he even disobeyed an Officer.

Which only crazy people do.

[specsaregood]

And if they had to hire a gulfstream every time they had to remove someone from their seat, then they probably wouldn't be in business today.

And they would deserve to go out of business. More likely, they invest in some technology and personnel that can better streamline and plan for these situations. But why bother with that when you have govt regulations protecting your ass..

[Dr.3D]

I didn't say your scenario isn't plausible. Just said it didn't happen here. The airline planned poorly, it should cost them. When I plan poorly, I eat it, I don't tell my customers to eat it. Ok, so they might lose millions, that means there was an awful lot of wiggle room between the $800 they were offering and "millions". I'd wager they would get a stampede of people offering to give up their seat for a measly 10k.

Of course for that 10K they could have chartered a flight on a small plane to get the excess passengers to their destination.