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Thread: Why are tariffs and preventing outsourcing of jobs a bad thing?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot%...ley_Tariff_Act

    I am not sure the safety and warmth and insulation from the cold cruel world provided by the Smoot Hawley Tariff was fully appreciated by people living in the 1930's.
    Smoot Hawley was not MODERATE. Plus it was just a scape-goat for the real causes of the depression. (THE FED/EURO CENTRAL BANKS)



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Moderate Tariffs are one of the lowest impact forms of taxation
    If you're just saying that one kind of taxation is less terrible than another, that's not saying much. They're all terrible, and none are a positive good thing in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    and they serve as economic insulation, so when your trading partners catch economic flu you don't get economic pneumonia. They have the side effect of providing stability, which is sorely lacking in today's efficiency obsessed world.
    What a ridiculous excuse for tariffs. You're basically saying they protect us from suffering a future economic downfall from a higher level to a lower level by permanently holding us down at that lower level so that we never get up to the higher level so as to be able to fall back down.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    If you're just saying that one kind of taxation is less terrible than another, that's not saying much. They're all terrible, and none are a positive good thing in any way.
    I will not debate anarchists. Some government, and therefore some taxes are necessary.



    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    What a ridiculous excuse for tariffs. You're basically saying they protect us from suffering a future economic downfall from a higher level to a lower level by permanently holding us down at that lower level so that we never get up to the higher level so as to be able to fall back down.
    As with all insulation there is some loss of peak potential, but the protection from catastrophe is greater. And long term growth is better, plants grow better in the tropics than in zones with wild temperature swings.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will not debate anarchists. Some government, and therefore some taxes are necessary.
    If you believe in taxes, and you won't debate those who don't (like the guy this website is named for and everyone who supports this site's mission statement), then why are you even here?
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 04-04-2017 at 08:10 PM.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Hence in order for you liberty to hinge on free markets you must impose your will on another nation which will of course infringe on their liberty...
    Completely confused by this. Whose liberty will be infringed upon?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Liberty doesn't grant you the right to be free from tariffs any more than it grants another the right to impose them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Yes it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Completely confused by this. Whose liberty will be infringed upon?
    Still confused?

  9. #37
    You can debate whether an an-cap state is the ultimate goal or not, while agreeing that reducing the state is a common goal.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    If you believe in taxes, and you won't debate those who don't (like the guy this website is named for and everyone who supports this site's mission statement), then why are you even here?
    The absurdity is astounding.

    Ron Paul doesn't believe in taxes and yet he did not run for president advocating the privatization of all government functions. Ron Paul is a man of his word, and therefore there would have been a tax of some kind even if he had been elected president.

    Which means invoking his name as a counterpoint against someone who pointed out there will be taxes of some kind is stupid.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    you won't debate
    Debate? Debate whom?

    Debate =/= listening to low IQ blowhards thoughtlessly repeat the same talking points over and over ad tedium.

    You don't debate anyone, erowe (except on religion). In order to debate, you'd have to have something to say. No offense!
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 04-07-2017 at 07:57 AM.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Both countries have a lower standard of living when one of the countries puts up a trade barrier.
    This is absolutely true. Undeniable (at least in the immediate short-term -- long term, we can never know; too many factors and humans are unpredictable).

    But......

    Actually, before I say my "but..." let me disclaimer for all the partisan zealots eager to pounce on any deviation from orthodoxy: I do not support tariffs, I believe free trade is best. I'm totally on board the freedom train. OK? OK.

    But.... it is a reasonable question to ask: at what point is your standard of living high enough? Is there some point at which it may be wise to say "I'm rich enough already; time to focus on other things." Things like, oh, the continuation of your civilization, the prospects for your children and grandchildren in their lives. Or how about the ability of those of moderate ability and IQ -- the great big, fat center of the bell curve -- to find any gainful, meaningful employment?

    Or is that all against the rules? Is the only thing we're allowed to care about the Annual Statistical Report on the GDP?

    It is not against the rules. One of the great praxeological insights of Mises, Rothbard, et. al., is that value is subjective. There exists no objective interpersonal value unit: we find no such unit in "Utils," and we certainly do not in "dollars."

    So, the consummately narcissistic argument of ZippyJuan that we ought not to have tariffs because then "I am paying higher prices" (Oh noes!) and so "I have less money" (Stop it! The horror!) is unlikely to be persuasive to anyone, other than himself. And perhaps other narcissists.

    On the other hand, arguments such as Tod Evans' looking at society-wide effects of policies, considering the effects on other human beings such as "maybe the employees who still have a job," and thinking about the long-term effects on the next generations, this kind of broader thinking is going to seem much more mature and responsible to, well, anyone who cares about the future and is not a rabid narcissist or blind partisan. That is: all normal, decent people.

    Just some thoughts! Just some thoughts.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    The absurdity is astounding.

    Ron Paul doesn't believe in taxes and yet he did not run for president advocating the privatization of all government functions. Ron Paul is a man of his word, and therefore there would have been a tax of some kind even if he had been elected president.

    Which means invoking his name as a counterpoint against someone who pointed out there will be taxes of some kind is stupid.
    The person I was responding to wasn't just saying there would be taxes of some kind, but that they are a positive good which he supports.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Debate? Debate whom?
    You're replying to the wrong person. My reference to him not debating was a paraphrase of what he had said in the quote box that anyone can see right at the top of my post.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The person I was responding to wasn't just saying there would be taxes of some kind, but that they are a positive good which he supports.

    I said no such thing. I said Tariffs are less bad, and have some good side effects. Some government and therefore some taxes are necessary, and tariffs are part of the best solution to that problem.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I said no such thing. I said Tariffs are less bad, and have some good side effects. Some government and therefore some taxes are necessary, and tariffs are part of the best solution to that problem.
    So you do positively support taxes as a means of funding what you consider to be necessary government.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    The absurdity is astounding.

    Ron Paul doesn't believe in taxes and yet he did not run for president advocating the privatization of all government functions. Ron Paul is a man of his word, and therefore there would have been a tax of some kind even if he had been elected president.

    Which means invoking his name as a counterpoint against someone who pointed out there will be taxes of some kind is stupid.
    In fact, Ron Paul supports taxes as a local and state level (he's advocated for government at those levels)...he just hates federal taxes. When I mentioned to him how state taxes where much higher pre-1913, he said he wouldn't have a problem with that and even agreed that some states with low taxes and low governance would suffer for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    This is absolutely true. Undeniable (at least in the immediate short-term -- long term, we can never know; too many factors and humans are unpredictable).

    But......

    Actually, before I say my "but..." let me disclaimer for all the partisan zealots eager to pounce on any deviation from orthodoxy: I do not support tariffs, I believe free trade is best. I'm totally on board the freedom train. OK? OK.

    But.... it is a reasonable question to ask: at what point is your standard of living high enough? Is there some point at which it may be wise to say "I'm rich enough already; time to focus on other things." Things like, oh, the continuation of your civilization, the prospects for your children and grandchildren in their lives. Or how about the ability of those of moderate ability and IQ -- the great big, fat center of the bell curve -- to find any gainful, meaningful employment?

    Or is that all against the rules? Is the only thing we're allowed to care about the Annual Statistical Report on the GDP?

    It is not against the rules. One of the great praxeological insights of Mises, Rothbard, et. al., is that value is subjective. There exists no objective interpersonal value unit: we find no such unit in "Utils," and we certainly do not in "dollars."

    So, the consummately narcissistic argument of ZippyJuan that we ought not to have tariffs because then "I am paying higher prices" (Oh noes!) and so "I have less money" (Stop it! The horror!) is unlikely to be persuasive to anyone, other than himself. And perhaps other narcissists.

    On the other hand, arguments such as Tod Evans' looking at society-wide effects of policies, considering the effects on other human beings such as "maybe the employees who still have a job," and thinking about the long-term effects on the next generations, this kind of broader thinking is going to seem much more mature and responsible to, well, anyone who cares about the future and is not a rabid narcissist or blind partisan. That is: all normal, decent people.

    Just some thoughts! Just some thoughts.
    Basically, your argument is, what is so wrong with society as a whole willing to give up some kind efficiency or productivity for other things?

    I agree that the vast majority of studies conclude that free trade is a win-win-win (we win, our trade partners win, the whole world wins). But those studies look at what has historically happened; jobs that fled overseas were replaced by domestic jobs in new industries. In a paradigm where the later does not happen...the studies would have to evolve.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    then why are you even here?
    probably cause it's an interesting site to him?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    And maybe the employees who still have a job..
    They would benefit too. At the expense of consumers. Should you be forced to subsidize the jobs of factory workers any more than you should be forced to subsidize the jobs of bureaucrats? Are the jobs that aren't created because you have to pay more money for existing products less valuable than the jobs that are saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    But.... it is a reasonable question to ask: at what point is your standard of living high enough?
    Whenever I decide it is. Not when you decide it is.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    They would benefit too. At the expense of consumers.
    Factory workers are consumers too.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Should you be forced to subsidize the jobs of factory workers any more than you should be forced to subsidize the jobs of bureaucrats?
    Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Are the jobs that aren't created because you have to pay more money for existing products less valuable than the jobs that are saved?
    What?

    Jobs that aren't created?

    What "jobs are saved"?


    Now how about the remainder of my post?

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Evil business owners! Better to support foreign businesses who pay their workers in fishheads and rice.

    About the only US consumers left are those 'working' for government or one of her entities...........Oh.........And the evil business owners.

    The issue of tariffs wouldn't be an issue if the feds weren't involved in businesses.....



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    If I was dictator of my state I would charge people of Illinois a toll to enter my state . Hopefully they would quit coming , but if not , free revenue .
    Kind of like the opposite of New Jersey. It is free to get in, but cost $3-$6 to get out depending on the bridge you take.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Factory workers are consumers too.
    Bureaucrats are taxpayers too.

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    What?

    Jobs that aren't created?

    What "jobs are saved"?
    The jobs that supposedly wouldn't be outsourced because of a tariff. The higher prices leave less money for consumers to spend on other products, which means there will be fewer people working in other industries that otherwise would have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Now how about the remainder of my post?
    If you don't want to buy from a foreign company that pays their workers in fish heads, you shouldn't have to. If I do want to buy from them, I shouldn't be taxed for the privilege.

    And no, tariffs and free trade wouldn't be a discussion if not for the federal government's meddling. But that doesn't mean tariffs would make anything better. It would just be another nail in our coffins.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Bureaucrats are taxpayers too.
    I don't see it that way.

    These leaches live on honestly earned money forcibly extracted from the productive class....

    Playing games with their lucre allotment to make it appear as though they're actually productive is nothing more than simple propaganda.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    The jobs that supposedly wouldn't be outsourced because of a tariff. The higher prices leave less money for consumers to spend on other products, which means there will be fewer people working in other industries that otherwise would have been.
    I don't want tariffs any more than I want government interfering when the "factory workers" retaliate against consumers who buy foreign made goods.

    One branch of government makes it so it's cost prohibitive for factories to produce while the other branch protects them, then the third branch justifies the whole charade.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    If you don't want to buy from a foreign company that pays their workers in fish heads, you shouldn't have to. If I do want to buy from them, I shouldn't be taxed for the privilege.
    No you shouldn't be "taxed for the privilege" nor should you be protected from the consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    And no, tariffs and free trade wouldn't be a discussion if not for the federal government's meddling. But that doesn't mean tariffs would make anything better. It would just be another nail in our coffins.
    If "we" continue to permit government to interfere in the markets then tariffs are no worse than the regulations and impositions a US manufacturer must suffer under.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Whenever I decide it is. Not when you decide it is.
    Indeed. I do not presume to decide anything for anyone else.

    Please kindly do not imply that I do. Thanks.


    By the way, @The Gold Standard , have you seen my new project enabling you to put yourself on the gold standard?

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    My dad asked this question and I didn't know how to answer it
    In a free market it drives prices up by forcing artificial shortages. But this isn't a free market. American employers must pay minimum wages, adhere to environmental and safety regulations, and in general provide a much costlier business environment than the 3rd world economies do. In theory, tariffs serve to level the playing field. In reality, government is always too slow to react to changing markets and the regulations end up harming the economy.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post



    If "we" continue to permit government to interfere in the markets then tariffs are no worse than the regulations and impositions a US manufacturer must suffer under.
    Yep.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    By the way, @The Gold Standard , have you seen my new project enabling you to put yourself on the gold standard?
    I saw the thread for it, but I didn't read about it yet. It's all a good idea, but as long as people are accepting paper dollars, I would be an idiot to pay someone in gold.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    I saw the thread for it, but I didn't read about it yet. It's all a good idea, but as long as people are accepting paper dollars, I would be an idiot to pay someone in gold.
    True. But I think if you read the intro page, it might answer that objection.

    https://Midas.gold/intro



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  32. #57
    Protective Tariffs are a form of government interference with the market, which increases inefficiencies and results in wasted resources. A protective tariff is also a form of corporate welfare, similar (in kind, if not degree) to the ACA's mandate that everyone purchase health insurance.
    The protective tariff is also a violation of an individual's right to dispose of the product of his labor in the way he deems best. Discussion of such a tariff, I think, should be coupled with the discussion of govt subsidies to domestic firms, which cause the same problems. Imposing a tariff to "remedy" the problems that arise from other government interventions and taxes is a suboptimal action. It only adds to the problems.

    A low revenue tariff as a replacement for the income tax would be a beneficial change, I think.

    Government policies and legislation that restrict outsourcing of jobs is a violation of property rights, and also--as a form of government intervention--create inefficiencies in the economy. Labor is an economic resource, and government intervention to keep labor prices high create the same problems that keeping the price of lumber, or apples, or technical equipment high does. Passing laws to prevent outsourcing is a situation of the govt handing you crutches after it had broken your legs (through interventions like licensing and the minimum wage).

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    A tariff on foreign goods is functionally identical to a subsidy of domestic goods. Would he support that?

    Either way the government is interfering in the market to choose winners and losers.
    This is true. So let's extrapolate this into the real world. If you open up national borders for economic trade and you are competing with countries run by dictatorships with slave waves **cough, China, cough** and allow those goods to flow in, you are then, in effect, subsidizing slavery.

    If the world were filled with liberty oriented nations with labor markets and regulations that were on par, the free trade philosophy works.

    As of now, Canadians and Americans must compete with slave waves.

    It's not free trade when one country has an army of slaves.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    This is true. So let's extrapolate this into the real world. If you open up national borders for economic trade and you are competing with countries run by dictatorships with slave waves **cough, China, cough** and allow those goods to flow in, you are then, in effect, subsidizing slavery.
    We don't get to decide other countries' policies, just our own. At that point, you have the option to either only trade with countries who share our policies, in which case welcome to the Council on Foreign Relations, or else to maintain free trade ideals and just do our thing.

    Also, lack of American trade hasn't suddenly 'fixed' any of the countries that we've sanctioned. Quite to the contrary, we've had much better results by trading rather than by not trading.



    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    It's not free trade when one country has an army of slaves.
    Could make that same argument between certain states in the US.

    Not only that, but depending on whose measure of poverty and slave wages you use, a larger percentage of Americans live in poverty than Chinese.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post

    Not only that, but depending on whose measure of poverty and slave wages you use, a larger percentage of Americans live in poverty than Chinese.

    Source?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

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