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Thread: Health bill disaster

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Next step, replacing Trump.

    If you thought this was bad, wait for the debt ceiling fight in a few months.

    ...FYI, freedom caucus IS NOT going to be folding to the Dem-In-Chief on that either.
    If that happens we get a government shutdown which is good either way.



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  3. #62
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    Funnily, I don't see the disaster.
    Yes, Obamacare still exists, now it is time to just abolish it.
    Two years from now, GOP victory.
    As the bills rise exponentially, the people will cry for a change.
    America is too sick for socialized medicine to ever work on it. Drugs and obesity.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    They're going on to easier topics that everyone can agree on.

    Y'know, like tax reform. Should be a snap to do.
    Rand had a good idea on tax reform, hope he leads on that like he did with healthcare.
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    Rand had a good idea on tax reform, hope he leads on that like he did with healthcare.
    Im just fine with Trumps plan, it is quite detailed, and I like it just fine.

    I like the idea of poor people sending the IRS a tax return that says "I win".



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  7. #65
    ‘The closer’? The inside story of how Trump tried — and failed — to make a deal on health care
    By Robert Costa, Ashley Parker and Philip Rucker March 24 at 9:19 PM


    Shortly after House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) unveiled the Republican health-care plan on March 6, President Trump sat in the Oval Office and queried his advisers: “Is this really a good bill?”

    And over the next 18 days, until the bill collapsed in the House on Friday afternoon in a humiliating defeat — the sharpest rebuke yet of Trump’s young presidency and his negotiating skills — the question continued to nag at the president.

    Even as he thrust himself and the trappings of his office into selling the health-care bill, Trump peppered his aides again and again with the same concern, usually after watching cable news reports chronicling the setbacks, according to two of his advisers: “Is this really a good bill?”

    In the end, the answer was no — in part because the president himself seemed to doubt it.

    “We were a little bit shy — very little, but it was still a little bit shy, so we pulled it,” Trump said Friday afternoon in an interview with The Washington Post.

    For Trump, it was never supposed to be this hard. As a real estate mogul on the rise, he wrote “The Art of the Deal,” and as a political candidate, he boasted that nobody could make deals as beautifully as he could. Replacing Obamacare, a Republican bogeyman since the day it was enacted seven years ago, was Trump’s first chance to prove that he had the magic touch that he claimed eluded Washington.

    [Balz: A postponed health-care vote, a big GOP embarrassment and no good options ahead]

    But Trump’s effort was plagued from the beginning. The bill itself would have violated a number of Trump’s campaign promises, driving up premiums for millions of citizens and throwing millions more off health insurance — including many of the working-class voters who gravitated to his call to “make America great again.” Trump was unsure about the American Health Care Act, though he ultimately dug in for the win, as he put it.

    There were other problems, too. Trump never made a real effort to reach out to Democrats, and he was unable to pressure enough of his fellow Republicans. He did not speak fluently about the bill’s details and focused his pitch in purely transactional terms. And he failed to appreciate the importance of replacing Obamacare to the Republican base; for the president, it was an obstacle to move past to get to taxes, trade and the rest of his agenda.

    Trump’s advisers thought he could nudge the bill over the finish line by sheer force of personality. “He is the closer,” White House press secretary Sean Spicer boasted on Wednesday.

    But by Friday, it was clear that the closer could not close.
    ...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...120_story.html
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  8. #66

  9. #67
    Yes Democrats well use this as means to get a signal payer system pass, complete Government bureaucratic control over your healthcare.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    They're going on to easier topics that everyone can agree on.

    Y'know, like tax reform. Should be a snap to do.
    It really should be. Everyone is on board for tax reform. The donors, who back both parties, heavily favor it.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Loose lips sink ships. You're a looser. Way to blow it.
    You sure are putting a lot of relevance to this little forum. It just ain't anymore.
    ================
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  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    You sure are putting a lot of relevance to this little forum. It just ain't anymore.
    As much as you do. <shrug>

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Next step, replacing Trump.

    If you thought this was bad, wait for the debt ceiling fight in a few months.

    ...FYI, freedom caucus IS NOT going to be folding to the Dem-In-Chief on that either.
    Yes, yes, we all know you want world government, but sorry, there are a whole lot of us who are not going to go along with that.









    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 03-25-2017 at 07:57 AM.
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  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Rand disagrees, and so do I. Even from a pragmatist standpoint this bill was too rotten.

    Do not misunderstand me, my friend. I wanted the bill to fail. If the GOP can't be conservative then I'd rather be a roadblock than a speed bump.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Noob View Post
    Yes Democrats well use this as means to get a signal payer system pass, complete Government bureaucratic control over your healthcare.
    And that's what Trump wants.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post



    Most of quotes you posted from Revolution3.0 are weird at best. I'll give you that. But your decision to include his question of why he should prefer you to a Mexican alongside those others says more about you than it does him.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Most of quotes you posted from Revolution3.0 are weird at best. I'll give you that. But your decision to include his question of why he should prefer you to a Mexican alongside those others says more about you than it does him.
    He's a globalist, who prefers Mexican nationals to his own countrymen, in the United States.
    ================
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  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    It really should be. Everyone is on board for tax reform. The donors, who back both parties, heavily favor it.
    Everyone is also for health care reform.

    Everyone agrees that it should happen but nobody agrees on how.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
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    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
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    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Everyone is also for health care reform.

    Everyone agrees that it should happen but nobody agrees on how.
    Not sure I agree. The liberals/left wants more government involvement in healthcare. The center/center-right wants some government involvement but not too much. The right/far-right wants very little government involvement in healthcare. There is money behind all three parts, especially the center and the right. The voters tend to heavily support the far-left and the center, and while money is important, politicians are wary of angry voters.

    When it comes to taxes, the entire Republican party is united behind lower taxes. The only point of contention would be that some Republicans want to cut taxes on the rich and raise them on the middle-class to maintain the deficit; this is very toxic to voters so some Republicans in weaker districts will protest, as will many Democrats. The blue-dog Democrats are equally eager to cut taxes on the rich, as long as taxes on the middle class are not raised. But there is pretty much no money behind the "raise taxes" wing; taxes are raised because politicians are forced to be fiscally responsible, not because special interests or voters forced them to. For the most part, all the big donors want drastic cuts in taxes. As long as everyone gets a cut, voters will generally go along with it.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It would have replaced the government penalty with a penalty paid to the insurance companies. It didn't include any free market reforms or anything that would help lower the costs, in fact costs would have kept increasing.
    Insurance companies choosing their own prices is part of the free market, not a penalty. I also surprised this bill did no include free market reforms, but not getting all of what we want is not a reason to oppose repealing some of what we don't. As Rand Paul said, no everything has to be done in the same bill. We could still have tried to get a free-market bill through later. Can you expect free market reforms when Trump goes to the moderate Democrats to make some tweaks to the current law?

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by givemeliberty2010 View Post
    Insurance companies choosing their own prices is part of the free market, not a penalty. I also surprised this bill did no include free market reforms, but not getting all of what we want is not a reason to oppose repealing some of what we don't. As Rand Paul said, no everything has to be done in the same bill. We could still have tried to get a free-market bill through later. Can you expect free market reforms when Trump goes to the moderate Democrats to make some tweaks to the current law?
    The blame still rests with democrats as long as O-care is in place. If Republicans pass a bill that is equally bad or perhaps even worse than the current Obamacare crap, then the burden of blame shifts to them for giving us a crappy system.

    I don't think any Republican, moderate or Freedom Caucus member, wants that.

    The only thing worse than a fully socialist, government-run program is one that puts just enough hint of capitalist characteristics in it that in the event that it fails (which it will because gov't will get the final say in that partnership), capitalism gets blamed. That's essentially what Paul Ryan was going for last week.

    I think perhaps you had your hopes too high that this was going to be a simple matter. Don't forget that by and large, Republicans govern like republicans. It's the democrats who move swiftly because as soon as 51% of them agree, they bring out the battering ram and push things through, consequences-be-damned.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
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  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by givemeliberty2010 View Post
    It would have repealed the worst part of the ACA: the employer mandate. It would have also repealed the individual mandate and weakened the essential health care benefits regulations.
    That's not the worst part. The worst part is that it forces insurance companies to insure people who are already sick. That's basically socialized healthcare. If they don't remove that part it's a joke.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Next step, replacing Trump.

    If you thought this was bad, wait for the debt ceiling fight in a few months.

    ...FYI, freedom caucus IS NOT going to be folding to the Dem-In-Chief on that either.
    I've been wondering what is going to happen with the debt ceiling ever since the election. My guess is that they quickly re-suspend it.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I've been wondering what is going to happen with the debt ceiling ever since the election. My guess is that they quickly re-suspend it.
    I predict that they completely eliminate the concept of a debt ceiling saying that it is outdated, antiquated and unnecessary.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Why oh why is it that when a terrible bill becomes law, instead of repealing it, they just go on to change it to another terrible bill and hope to pass it?
    Exactly.

    My dad had an idea back in the '80s - "We need another arm of government - a Congress that only exists to repeal laws."

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by merkelstan View Post
    Exactly.

    My dad had an idea back in the '80s - "We need another arm of government - a Congress that only exists to repeal laws."
    Of course that can't happen, because that would be against what they are trying to do. They eventually want to have everything against the law.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I predict that they completely eliminate the concept of a debt ceiling saying that it is outdated, antiquated and unnecessary.
    They're getting closer. The last 3 times they've suspended it instead of raising it.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I predict that they completely eliminate the concept of a debt ceiling saying that it is outdated, antiquated and unnecessary.
    Sooner or later, they will. And they'll be right ...

    The so-called "debt ceiling" has never been anything but an irrelevant bit of diversionary fluff.

    After all, what can the concept of a "debt ceiling" possibly mean when they can conjure money into existence just by typing some numbers into a computer?
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  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    He's a globalist, who prefers Mexican nationals to his own countrymen, in the United States.
    Not necessarily. He could be an honest broker and prefer neither. You act like there's something wrong with that. And, like I said, the fact that you do tells us more about you than him.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-27-2017 at 07:16 AM.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Thread winner.
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    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Sooner or later, they will. And they'll be right ...

    The so-called "debt ceiling" has never been anything but an irrelevant bit of diversionary fluff.

    After all, what can the concept of a "debt ceiling" possibly mean when they can conjure money into existence just by typing some numbers into a computer?
    The debt ceiling is valuable insofar as it allows one house, or the president, to kill otherwise "mandatory" spending.

    ...not this House, not this Senate, not this President, but some at some point.

    There are few issues more important for posterity; fiscal conservatives should be ready to die on this hill.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The debt ceiling is valuable insofar as it allows one house, or the president, to kill otherwise "mandatory" spending.

    ...not this House, not this Senate, not this President, but some at some point.
    'The rule is jam tomorrow and jam yesterday but never jam today."

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    There are few issues more important for posterity; fiscal conservatives should be ready to die on this hill.
    If fiscal conservatives (so called) should by dying, it should be on the hill of something like commodity standards derived and enforced by markets - and certainly not on the hill of gimmicks for the preservation and promotion of the pretense that a fiat system can be constrained and managed responsibly.

    There would be little or no need for contrivances such as "debt ceilings" under commodity money standards, because such standards would inherently limit the State's capacity to spend. States implement and enforce fiat systems precisely in order to get around such limitations in the first place. The post hoc bolting of poor and toothless imitations of those constraints onto the edifice of fiat is like installing smoke alarms without batteries after the house has already caught fire ...

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