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Thread: Jury system = bad judgements and citizen slavery

  1. #1

    Jury system = bad judgements and citizen slavery

    Today I am here to attack the jury system.

    The idea that 12 uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.) members of the herd, who will not be held responsible for their actions, and who resent being kidnapped and payed an insulting amount for their time, will be anything but a recipe for disaster is ludicrous on it's very face.

    Judges do pervert justice, but juries do so more, whether you count wrongful convictions or wrongful acquittals or wrongheaded civil judgements.

    If justice is not served by the appeals system then the proper cures are activism for redress from the executive and/or the legislature, or revolt if the abuses become too many and too injurious to be left to GOD to redress on judgement day.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 10-01-2018 at 05:04 PM.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Today I am here to attack the jury system.

    The Idea that 12 uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.) members of the herd, who will not be held responsible for their actions, and who resent being kidnapped and payed an insulting amount for their time, will be anything but a recipe for disaster is ludicrous on it's very face.

    Judges do pervert justice, but juries do so more, whether you count wrongful convictions or wrongful acquittals or wrongheaded civil judgements.

    If justice is not served by the appeals system then the proper cures are activism for redress from the executive and/or the legislature, or revolt if the abuses become too many and too injurious to be left to GOD to redress on judgement day.
    You would rather your fate be in the hand of a sitting judge than a jury of your peers?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    You would rather your fate be in the hand of a sitting judge than a jury of your peers?
    My uncle was sent to prison by a Jury of his peers, because they could get home for Christmas faster if they didn't take time to think. It took years to get his conviction overturned.
    Also who am I to request the enslavement (however temporary) of my peers?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    You would rather your fate be in the hand of a sitting judge than a jury of your peers?
    The term "peers" was bastardized by the kourts long before I was born..




    Definition of peer
    1
    : one that is of equal standing with another : equal The band mates welcomed the new member as a peer.; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status teenagers spending time with their peers

  6. #5
    I've always wondered what would happen if an accused, after jury selection, addressed the judge that the twelve selected should sit in judgement as to whether or not they are actually "peers."

  7. #6
    No doubt. But judges are better??? that's what confuses me about the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    My uncle was sent to prison by a Jury of his peers, because they could get home for Christmas faster if they didn't take time to think. It took years to get his conviction overturned.
    Also who am I to request the enslavement (however temporary) of my peers?
    Well, if you get a law degree you could be a judge and have your fun with it if we didn't have juries.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Well, if you get a law degree you could be a judge and have your fun with it if we didn't have juries.
    I wrote what the options are for redress in the OP.
    Juries are no better than judges, and are less responsible since they can't lose their seat/ruin their careers.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Well, if you get a law degree you could be a judge and have your fun with it if we didn't have juries.
    Also you are temporarily enslaving 12 people.

  12. #10
    Since it is evident 12 of my peers will not be found , I will not surrender.
    Do something Danke

  13. #11


    The fact that 1 out of a 100 people would vote to acquit OJ Simpson let alone all 12 on a jury definitely makes it seem like the jury system is less than optimal. The problem is I don't know that having government employees decide the cases would be preferable.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    [co[/video]

    The fact that 1 out of a 100 people would vote to acquit OJ Simpson let alone all 12 on a jury definitely makes it seem like the jury system is less than optimal. The problem is I don't know that having government employees decide the cases would be preferable.
    Yeah. I'd rather have the judges picked from a pool of my peers than face people "highly educated" on the law.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Today I am here to attack the jury system.

    The Idea that 12 uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.) members of the herd, who will not be held responsible for their actions, and who resent being kidnapped and payed an insulting amount for their time, will be anything but a recipe for disaster is ludicrous on it's very face.

    Judges do pervert justice, but juries do so more, whether you count wrongful convictions or wrongful acquittals or wrongheaded civil judgements.

    If justice is not served by the appeals system then the proper cures are activism for redress from the executive and/or the legislature, or revolt if the abuses become too many and too injurious to be left to GOD to redress on judgement day.
    Do you have evidence that juries pervert justice more than judges?

    You say "uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.)" as though a law school education makes someone more likely to appreciate natural law. But it seems to me that one of the main objectives of law school is to teach lawyers how to get around natural law via sophistry.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Also you are temporarily enslaving 12 people.
    That is a good point.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Do you have evidence that juries pervert justice more than judges?

    You say "uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.)" as though a law school education makes someone more likely to appreciate natural law. But it seems to me that one of the main objectives of law school is to teach lawyers how to get around natural law via sophistry.
    For the love of God, can you state a position without using question marks and the word "you?" I'm thinking no.

    The last sentence alone would have made this a decent post.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    For the love of God, can you state a position without using question marks and the word "you?" I'm thinking no.

    The last sentence alone would have made this a decent post.
    You mean the sentence where I stated a position without using a question mark or the word "you"?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Do you have evidence that juries pervert justice more than judges?

    You say "uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.)" as though a law school education makes someone more likely to appreciate natural law. But it seems to me that one of the main objectives of law school is to teach lawyers how to get around natural law via sophistry.
    I do not have handy statistics, just my logic and experience.

    And Public School/AverageJoe stupidity create a "he must be guilty or they wouldn't prosecute" attitude, at least judges Know you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, and have to look for ways to get around it.

  21. #18
    I served on a jury before. I live in a large county with both some of the wealthiest and poorest communities in the country. The woman on trial was from one of the poorest communities and some of the people on the jury didn't even know where it was located. We were far from her peers.

    (I've previously posted more about my jury duty experience, if your interested, it's here: No such thing as a fair jury.)

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsey View Post
    The drinking and driving laws are really abused.

    Before I knew anything about Ron Paul or the liberty movement, I sat on jury in a DUI case. I also wasn't fully aware of my rights as a juror at the time. In this instance, the girl was found asleep, (possibly passed out) in the driver's seat on the day the street-sweepers came through. The keys were in the ignition but the car was not running. She was parked outside of her boyfriend's house, she said she had been dropped off there by friends and didn't have a key to get into his place. It was late on a cool spring night, so she went to her car to sleep. Her BAC was sky-high, but there had been no proof she had actually driven.

    When the jury walked into the deliberation room, 10 people were instantly ready to say 'guilty,' 1 was undecided, and I was the only person saying we can't understand how you find someone guilty of a DWI, when the state hadn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she had driven while intoxicated. It wasn't surprising though, from when you fill out the survey first thing in the morning up until you enter the jury room - you are fed propaganda the whole day. The judge gave a 'pep talk' in the morning, emphasizing how much crime our county has and how it does so much harm, blah, blah, blah... And then they present you with the law that is being applied and tell you repeatedly that this is what your judgement is to be based on. The law is written with such a broad brush, that if you so much as have 2 drinks and crawl into the trunk you can be found guilty of a DWI, if they want.

    After 2.5 - 3 hours of getting no where with these people, at most I had 3 people on the fence at one time. I finally gave in and went with the guilty verdict. The defense attorney made us all say the verdict, and I can tell you I felt like such a piece of dirt as I said, "guilty." I have never forgiven myself for the part I played in messing with that woman's life.

    The judge came into talk to the jury afterwards, and one of my fellow jurors ratted me out as being the hold out, as to why we didn't have a decision in the first 10-20 mins. I've never gotten another jury duty notice since then. Before that day, I was getting lots of jury duty notices. A few of the other jurors, had been on multiple trials - supposedly once you serve on one trial in our county, you keep getting notices annually. So the lesson I learned, is that if you don't want jury duty, fight for someone to be found "not guilty" and they'll never call you up again; be a pawn in their game, and they'll call on you as often as they are allowed to do so.
    Thanks

  23. #20
    One problem is that people go in being novices. Since they don't do it every day (or never) they just do what they are told. The judges and dist. attorney have a huge advantage. They also work with cops, so it's rigged there. I get what you're saying though. People can't be trusted. It was not always this way though. Jury nullification was once a staple of American jurisprudence. People abdicated and let someone else do it. They abdicated to government.

    Sorry to hear about your uncle. That is truly $#@!ed up.

  24. #21
    The original and only real purpose of the jury system, was to make the populace not protest any conviction, after all "The People" were the ones who made the judgement. Just like democracy is used to keep us from protesting/revolting, since we and our neighbors are the ones who really "run things".

  25. #22
    Bump
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Yah , I still am not going to surrender .
    Do something Danke

  27. #24
    The government should declare your guilt or innocence. No trial by jury. You only get the liberty they allow you to have.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The government should declare your guilt or innocence. No trial by jury. You only get the liberty they allow you to have.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Without juries, that is what you are left with.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Without juries, that is what you are left with.
    I discussed the options for redress without juries and juries are as bad or worse while convincing the people they have nobody to revolt against.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    I have very bad experiences with "judges" select by our wonderful Royal family that are possibly even more corrupt than politicians. Politicians actually have to worry about the news...
    This includes being locked up and tortured for 6 months by sadistic psychiatrist, because I'm "dangerous" (I wouldn't even harm a fly)...

    I have no experience with a jury of "peers", but it can't be worse than crooked "Judges".

    For a nice example of US courts where "judges" rule supreme (without a "jury of peers") just look at the horrors (crimes) committed by "family courts": http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ld-traffickers
    Do NOT ever read my posts. Google and Yahoo wouldn’t block them without a very good reason: Google-censors-the-world/page3

    The Order of the Garter rules the world: Order of the Garter and the Carolingian dynasty

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The Idea that 12 uneducated (at least in matters of law/legal philosophy/Rights etc.) members of the herd, who will not be held responsible for their actions...will be anything but a recipe for disaster is ludicrous on it's very face.
    And yet you believe that 326 million of these uneducated, irresponsible people should, as voters, rule the country...

    ...perhaps what makes the electorate better than the jury is that it is also ignorant of the relevant facts and can award itself money?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And yet you believe that 326 million of these uneducated, irresponsible people should, as voters, rule the country...

    ...perhaps what makes the electorate better than the jury is that it is also ignorant of the relevant facts and can award itself money?
    That is why a constitution is needed to limit what the people and their representatives can do, what is also ridiculous is to think that a hereditary monarch will have any motivation to respect the rights of the people if they have no say in government.

    I will not reply further because I don't want to derail this thread.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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