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Thread: Rand Paul, Hans Hermann Hoppe, and Immigration Policy

  1. #1

    Default Rand Paul, Hans Hermann Hoppe, and Immigration Policy

    Rand Paul, Hans Hermann Hoppe, and Immigration Policy
    By Michelangelo Landgrave - June 2, 2015

    Rand Paul officially announced his candidacy for the 2016 U.S. Presidential election on April 7th, 2015. Unofficially Rand Paul has been preparing to run for the Presidency ever since he first came onto the spotlight as an electable messenger of his father’s, Ron Paul’s, libertarian ideals. There has been much discussion in the libertarian movement whether Rand Paul is a ‘true’ libertarian or if he is a ‘beltarian’ more concerned with getting elected to the White House. Those who argue the latter point out that he diverges from his father on several policy issues.

    One issue in which both father and son remain near identical in is in immigration. Unfortunately immigration is one of the few policy areas where Ron Paul is at odds with libertarian principles. To his credit Ron Paul isn’t in favor of building a fence across the Mexican-US border, but his opposition to such a fence is that it could be used to restrict the freedom of travel of US citizens. Rand Paul in turn might be against open borders, but focuses his attacks using second-order arguments (e.g. Migrants increase the welfare state).

    To understand why Ron Paul, and ultimately his son Rand Paul, are not proponents of open borders we must discuss the wider libertarian movement.

    Libertarianism has historically been sympathetic to, if not necessarily open borders, minimal immigration restrictions. This is of no surprise given that most founders of the modern libertarian movement were migrants fleeing tyranny in Europe. Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek were both Austrian migrants. The infamous Ayn Rand, for whom Rand Paul is not named after, was a Russian migrant. Ayn Rand was also the libertarian movement’s best known illegal alien and one of its strongest proponents of open borders.

    It was a strange incident then when a faction of libertarian intellectuals came out in favor of migration restrictions in the late 20th century. Hans-Hermann Hoppe, a German migrant himself, convinced Murray Rothbard on the legitimacy of migration restrictions. Hoppe, who remains one of the few major libertarian intellectuals in favor of migration restrictions, argued that open borders were tantamount to forced integration. Hoppe often points out that in an anarcho-capitalist society home owners would be free to refuse to associate with whomever they please and that open borders would violate them of this right. As my co-blogger, Nathan Smith, often points out though it is possible for open borders to exist with private discrimination and thus Hoppe’s argument do not serve as a case for migration restrictions.

    Hans Hermann Hoppe did not manage to win the debate on migration and the libertarian movement remains largely sympathetic to open borders, but he nonetheless managed to convince some libertarians, most importantly the Lew Rockwell – Murray Rothbard circle. This circle included Ron Paul who was a friend of Murray Rothbard. Ron Paul in turn influenced his son’s political views. In short Hans Hermann Hoppe’s views on migration have culminated in Rand Paul having negative views towards open borders. One wonders how things might turned up if Walter Block, also a member of the Rothbard-Rockwell circle, had dominated discussions on immigration instead of Hans Hermann Hoppe!

    There are those in the libertarian movement who believe that Rand Paul is not as much of an immigration hawk as I have outlined above. To be fair, Rand is not as hostile to open borders as Hans Hermann Hoppe himself but he is no friend to open borders. During the 2013 debate on Comprehensive Immigration Reform (CIR) Rand voted against the passage of the bill. He voted against CIR arguing that it did not grant enough congressional oversight to ensure that the border was secured. The problem with this argument is that immigration creates constant political gridlock and that by increasing the role of Congress it would become increasingly unlikely that immigration liberalization would ever take place. It is difficult enough to get Congress to address immigration once every few decades; the last major overhaul was in the 80s. It is unthinkable to imagine Congress repeatedly addressing immigration as Rand desires. It is partly due to these political difficulties in immigration policy that federalizing immigration policy is an attractive option.

    Rand Paul, who is often seen as being more politically savy than his father, surely understands this. If so, why does he insist on a poison pill that would kill any meaningful immigration reform?

    As a recent interview with Rand Paul by Andy Hallman showcased, Rand is willing to make the Friedman argument that open borders are incompatible with the welfare state. However Friedman’s argument wasn’t against open borders; Friedman’s argument was that as long as we had a welfare state it would be preferable to promote illegal immigration.

    By no means should this post be taken to mean that Rand Paul should not be supported by libertarians in the upcoming 2016 U.S. Presidential Election. Immigration, while important, is not the sole policy issue of relevance.
    ...
    https://openborders.info/blog/rand-p...ration-policy/
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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    open borders is retarded. ask yourself how it would work in Liechtenstein. doesn't work with welfare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    open borders is retarded. ask yourself how it would work in Liechtenstein. doesn't work with welfare
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

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    Good article. Hoppe's anti-immigration argument is a series of logical errors: a transparent attempt to rationalize something which he knows (one hopes) to be contrary to libertarian principle. As for Ron and Rand, I get the impression that both are in principle in favor of free immigration, but don't think it's a hill worth dying on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    open borders is retarded. ask yourself how it would work in Liechtenstein. doesn't work with welfare
    Breathing's retarded, it doesn't work underwater.

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    Libertarianism has historically been sympathetic to, if not necessarily open borders, minimal immigration restrictions. This is of no surprise given that most founders of the modern libertarian movement were migrants fleeing tyranny in Europe. Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek were both Austrian migrants. The infamous Ayn Rand, for whom Rand Paul is not named after, was a Russian migrant. Ayn Rand was also the libertarian movement’s best known illegal alien and one of its strongest proponents of open borders.
    Except that being an immigrant or descendant of an immigrant in no way makes a person automatically "open borders". Many recent legal immigrants are very much against illegal immigration, as they see them as unvetted line jumpers. The main generalization (either plurality or majority) that can be made about pro-immigration people is that they want to bring "more of their kind". Not exclusively ethnic or racial. Can be from the same town, same university, same culture, same nation, same polical party or ideology, same religion, same club and most obviously, same family.

    And is Ayn Rand a "libertarian"? Seems to me that she had a certain disdain for "libertarianism".
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    "Libertarianism has historically been sympathetic to, if not necessarily open borders, minimal immigration restrictions. This is of no surprise given that most founders of the modern libertarian movement were migrants fleeing tyranny in Europe. Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek were both Austrian migrants."

    And is Ayn Rand a "libertarian"? Seems to me that she had a certain disdain for "libertarianism".
    It isn't clear at all Ayn Rand would be for a policy of open borders. Leonard Peikoff was as close to Ayn Rand as anyone. He is the curator of her estate. He doesn't think we should let Muslims into the country and is even for limiting immigration from Mexico. I don't go that far but I suspect his living in California has a lot to do with his immigration stance. http://www.peikoff.com/2010/07/05/wh...d-immigration/

    I actually know of almost no major libertarian thinker who takes a radical open borders view. Rothbard, Walter Williams, Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, Gary Becker, etc all felt it legitimate to regulate immigration. Even Mises, who I took for granted would be open borders, wasn't even close to open borders. He thought if a country like Australia opened its borders up it would be overrun with evil Chinese and Malaysians.

    Hayek was only for open borders in the abstract. "Professor Friedrich A. Hayek—himself an immigrant several times in his life—praised the British Conservative leader Margaret Thatcher for her call for stringent immigration controls. 'I believe that within any period with which we can now be concerned, any attempt to realize it (open borders) would lead to a revival of strong nationalist sentiments. '"

    Here is what the author of one of Ron Paul's top 5 recommended books says about immigration.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.c...d-immigration/
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 03-20-2017 at 06:48 PM.

  9. #8

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    Walter Block is like the only respectable ancap not against open borders. all the more reason to be against them imo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    Good article. Hoppe's anti-immigration argument is a series of logical errors: a transparent attempt to rationalize something which he knows (one hopes) to be contrary to libertarian principle. As for Ron and Rand, I get the impression that both are in principle in favor of free immigration, but don't think it's a hill worth dying on.


    Breathing's retarded, it doesn't work underwater.
    .03 of "Americans" are Mexican citizens, .14 of people in American prisons are Mexican citizens

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    It isn't clear at all Ayn Rand would be for a policy of open borders.
    Well, the OP author seems to assign absolute, black and white opinions to other people, without any relevant quotes or references.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    .03 of "Americans" are Mexican citizens, .14 of people in American prisons are Mexican citizens
    No they aren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    .03 of "Americans" are Mexican citizens, .14 of people in American prisons are Mexican citizens
    19% of prison inmates are Hispanic- not necessarily Mexican citizens (that includes US citizens and Hispanics from other countries as well as those in the country legally and those here illegally). Blacks are 40% of the prison population and only 13% of the general population. Most illegal immigrants who are in jail are in there for immigration violations- not actual crimes.

    According to the fiscal 2015 chart, 19,240 of the sentenced noncitizens, 66 percent of them, were primarily sentenced for immigration violations.
    (non- citizens includes those here in the country legally as well as illegally).
    http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...ird-federal-i/


    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politi...igrants-crime/

    The number of inmates in state and federal prisons who are not U.S. citizens, according to the latest prison population report from the Bureau of Judicial Statistics. That's about 5% of the total prison population.
    Given that illegals are eight percent of the US population and five percent of the prison population (and 66% of those in jail for immigration violations), that means that illegal immigrants are far less likely to be committing crimes in the US.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-21-2017 at 03:48 PM.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    No they aren't.
    I guess the government is lying then.

    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics...itizenship.jsp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    19% of prison inmates are Hispanic- not necessarily Mexican citizens (that includes US citizens and Hispanics from other countries as well as those in the country legally and those here illegally). Blacks are 40% of the prison population and only 13% of the general population. Most illegal immigrants who are in jail are in there for immigration violations- not actual crimes.



    (non- citizens includes those here in the country legally as well as illegally).
    http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...ird-federal-i/


    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politi...igrants-crime/



    Given that illegals are eight percent of the US population and five percent of the prison population (and 66% of those in jail for immigration violations), that means that illegal immigrants are far less likely to be committing crimes in the US.
    being in a country illegally is a crime.

    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics...itizenship.jsp 14% of inmates are Mexican citizens. almost 5x higher percentage than make up the country

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    being in a country illegally is a crime.

    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics...itizenship.jsp 14% of inmates are Mexican citizens. almost 5x higher percentage than make up the country
    What is the injury it causes? Killing somebody harms the victim. Stealing harms the victim.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is the injury it causes? Killing somebody harms the victim. Stealing harms the victim.
    https://mises.org/library/natural-or...tion-problem-0

  18. #17

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    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

    "I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

    "Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

    Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

    What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.
    "The only thing we have to fear is.... fear itself!" Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    "Be afwaid. Be berry afwaid" Donald Trump.

    The optimists built this country and made it great- not the fearful. Fear can only destroy.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    I guess the government is lying then.

    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics...itizenship.jsp
    I guess you don't realize that the federal prison population (what that refers to) is only a small (and unrepresentative) part of the total.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    I guess the government is lying then.

    https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics...itizenship.jsp
    I'm not trying to take a side in this argument, but did you really type that? Really?
    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "People who place their trust in government don't like competition from charities." - Origanalist

  21. #20

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    when did I say anything about a wall?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    I'm not trying to take a side in this argument, but did you really type that? Really?
    what is the problem?

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    what is the problem?
    The government never lies.

    Anything said contrary to government statistics is Fake News.

    Sad!

    /trumptardation

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    19% of prison inmates are Hispanic- not necessarily Mexican citizens (that includes US citizens and Hispanics from other countries as well as those in the country legally and those here illegally). Blacks are 40% of the prison population and only 13% of the general population. Most illegal immigrants who are in jail are in there for immigration violations- not actual crimes.



    (non- citizens includes those here in the country legally as well as illegally).
    http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...ird-federal-i/


    http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/08/politi...igrants-crime/



    Given that illegals are eight percent of the US population and five percent of the prison population (and 66% of those in jail for immigration violations), that means that illegal immigrants are far less likely to be committing crimes in the US.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...tizens_do.html

    Your lies have NO power here.

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    "That`s not the America Way"..? Are you kidding National defense and Immigration Restriction is an American Tradition.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is the injury it causes? Killing somebody harms the victim. Stealing harms the victim.

    Higher taxes
    Higher costs of living
    Higher rates of crime
    Lower Standard of living
    Lower levels of social trust/unity
    Less and Less Liberty as more Marxists take office thanks to voter abuse/cheating in the census

    It clearly effects everyone, but hey keep denying the obvious, post some quote, and keep believe "they will come around and accept Liberty" in the face of the tidal wave of facts that show beyond a doubt they will just vote for Marxism.

    The facts prove open borders is a total failure, the future of the GOP/nation is immigration restrictionism , do not like it? LEAVE.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    what is the problem?
    It's just funny because it's a sentence that suggests government can't lie or make mistakes. I'm not claiming the statistics are wrong, but your insistence that they must be true simply because they come from government is a fallacy called appeal to authority.
    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "People who place their trust in government don't like competition from charities." - Origanalist

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    what is the problem?
    It's just funny because it's a sentence that suggests government can't lie or make mistakes. I'm not claiming the statistics are wrong, but your insistence that they must be true simply because they come from government is a fallacy called appeal to authority.
    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "People who place their trust in government don't like competition from charities." - Origanalist

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RestorationOfLiberty View Post
    "That`s not the America Way"..? Are you kidding National defense and Immigration Restriction is an American Tradition.
    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "People who place their trust in government don't like competition from charities." - Origanalist

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    It's just funny because it's a sentence that suggests government can't lie or make mistakes. I'm not claiming the statistics are wrong, but your insistence that they must be true simply because they come from government is a fallacy called appeal to authority.
    usually when it's something like that you have to look beyond the facts. what motive would the government have to lie about THAT? if anything, they underrepresent the amount of mexican citizens

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    The government never lies.

    Anything said contrary to government statistics is Fake News.

    Sad!

    /trumptardation
    what motive do they have lying about that?

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