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Thread: Rand Paul on Morning Joe - 3/16

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    No talk about the Stop Arming the Terrorists bill?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    No talk about the Stop Arming the Terrorists bill?
    Nah, they just talked about McCain taunt and healthcare.

    I am still trying to figure out how his bill allowing people to get insurance through associations would solve the problem of pre existsing conditions. People who are health would not join associations where people with pre existing conditions are not charged premium according to their level of sickness. They would instead join pools with people of similar health status.

    I think the only way people with pre existing conditions can be covered without increase premium would be for govt to cover it. Anything else would fail. If it was up to me, I would stop talking about it cos the only way to achieve that is through mandates and govt force.
    Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling…makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Nah, they just talked about McCain taunt and healthcare.

    I am still trying to figure out how his bill allowing people to get insurance through associations would solve the problem of pre existsing conditions. People who are health would not join associations where people with pre existing conditions are not charged premium according to their level of sickness. They would instead join pools with people of similar health status..
    I dont' know of any healthy people buying health care and I don't know how forcing people to buy something they don't need is good for a market place. If I go break every god damn window in my city it isn't going to make the labor and cost of fixing a window any cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I dont' know of any healthy people buying health care and I don't know how forcing people to buy something they don't need is good for a market place. If I go break every god damn window in my city it isn't going to make the labor and cost of fixing a window any cheaper.
    Living people buy life insurance, healthy people buy health insurance. The rationale is not hard to understand, but the price of the premium has to have some connection to the risk before you can get people to pay. The problem with Rand's plan about giving associations ability to pool their members and buy tax free insurance is that at the end of the day, you would see associations of healthy people pooling together to exclude sick people and people with pre existing conditions. Those plans would be low priced and they would attract more and more healthy people to their association slowly killing off other associations

    I think if he was honest with himself he would know that his plan would also fail. Also the reason why forcing people to buy insurance is not the same as breaking windows is that nothing is actually destroyed in the process. The people being forced to buy insurance are getting coverage for when they become sick and everybody else gets a lowered premium.

    I am not saying we should mandate people buy insurance but the only way you can get sickly people insurance coverage is through mandated insurance. Any thing else would fail. There are no markets for car insurance for people who just got into a car accident and there would be little to no affordable insurance for people with major health issues.
    Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling…makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Living people buy life insurance, healthy people buy health insurance. The rationale is not hard to understand, but the price of the premium has to have some connection to the risk before you can get people to pay. The problem with Rand's plan about giving associations ability to pool their members and buy tax free insurance is that at the end of the day, you would see associations of healthy people pooling together to exclude sick people and people with pre existing conditions. Those plans would be low priced and they would attract more and more healthy people to their association slowly killing off other associations

    I think if he was honest with himself he would know that his plan would also fail. Also the reason why forcing people to buy insurance is not the same as breaking windows is that nothing is actually destroyed in the process. The people being forced to buy insurance are getting coverage for when they become sick and everybody else gets a lowered premium.

    I am not saying we should mandate people buy insurance but the only way you can get sickly people insurance coverage is through mandated insurance. Any thing else would fail. There are no markets for car insurance for people who just got into a car accident and there would be little to no affordable insurance for people with major health issues.
    Maybe people who are sick and need special healthcare should be in a different system then the rest of us. I think Rand's plan is more to get people to pool together to buy healthcare, not insurance. I think Rand Paul hates insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Living people buy life insurance, healthy people buy health insurance. The rationale is not hard to understand, but the price of the premium has to have some connection to the risk before you can get people to pay. The problem with Rand's plan about giving associations ability to pool their members and buy tax free insurance is that at the end of the day, you would see associations of healthy people pooling together to exclude sick people and people with pre existing conditions. Those plans would be low priced and they would attract more and more healthy people to their association slowly killing off other associations

    I think if he was honest with himself he would know that his plan would also fail. Also the reason why forcing people to buy insurance is not the same as breaking windows is that nothing is actually destroyed in the process. The people being forced to buy insurance are getting coverage for when they become sick and everybody else gets a lowered premium.

    I am not saying we should mandate people buy insurance but the only way you can get sickly people insurance coverage is through mandated insurance. Any thing else would fail. There are no markets for car insurance for people who just got into a car accident and there would be little to no affordable insurance for people with major health issues.
    You are really advocating mandatory insurance??

    Rand's plan wouldn't fail because it would bring the cost of healthcare down significantly. Yes, it would be more expensive to buy AARP health insurance than it would be to buy Olympic Athlete Association insurance, but when the prices are 30% of what they were, it wouldn't be that bad for AARP insurance.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I think Rand Paul hates insurance.
    Why would Rand Paul hate insurance? The only reason insurance sucks is because of all of the government regulations.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Maybe people who are sick and need special healthcare should be in a different system then the rest of us. I think Rand's plan is more to get people to pool together to buy healthcare, not insurance. I think Rand Paul hates insurance.
    Can you think of anything else people pool together to buy that is not insurance? I am not talking about 2-3 people pooling to buy a cow because they do not want the whole meat. People would not pool together to buy healthcare. Rand's plan whether he wants to admit it would fail miserably. And who is going to pay for that other system? govt?

    I think the best way to do it is for insurance companies to start offering catastrophic insurance plans that would pay out when someone is diagnosed with some catastrophic illness/hospital admissions. The costs for these plans would start low, maybe $20 at 20 and would slowly increase if one continuously have the insurance and maintains healthy lifestyle i.e. extreme sports people, smokers and obese people will get stiff raises to their premiums. This is one way to get young and healthy people to buy in early and stay in for the rest of their lives.
    Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling…makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You are really advocating mandatory insurance??

    Rand's plan wouldn't fail because it would bring the cost of healthcare down significantly. Yes, it would be more expensive to buy AARP health insurance than it would be to buy Olympic Athlete Association insurance, but when the prices are 30% of what they were, it wouldn't be that bad for AARP insurance.
    When I say Rand's plan would fail, I mean that it would fail in creating a pool that covers people with pre existing conditions. I think it would reduce the price of healthcare but that is not what I am talking about.
    Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling…makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Can you think of anything else people pool together to buy that is not insurance? I am not talking about 2-3 people pooling to buy a cow because they do not want the whole meat. People would not pool together to buy healthcare. Rand's plan whether he wants to admit it would fail miserably. And who is going to pay for that other system? govt?

    I think the best way to do it is for insurance companies to start offering catastrophic insurance plans that would pay out when someone is diagnosed with some catastrophic illness/hospital admissions. The costs for these plans would start low, maybe $20 at 20 and would slowly increase if one continuously have the insurance and maintains healthy lifestyle i.e. extreme sports people, smokers and obese people will get stiff raises to their premiums. This is one way to get young and healthy people to buy in early and stay in for the rest of their lives.
    I dunno why does health insurance have to be married to healthcare? I pool together with my cellphone bill and get a better price, I have been doing it for years. I know people who have 10 phones on their cell phone bill. Why can't my health insurance bundle with my car insurance? Why can't I get a discount for buying every form of my insurance from one company. Why can't I get a special type of insurance that covers sinus infections because I get one every $#@!ing time this year and I should be able to buy Sudafed in bulk at a reasonable price without looking like and being treated like a meth dealer.

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    Holy cow Rand positively owned all four of the Morning Joe panel for the entire last two minutes.

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    Rand is learning how to speak his mind confidently, and how to show a sense of humor. He is learning how to win.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I dunno why does health insurance have to be married to healthcare? I pool together with my cellphone bill and get a better price, I have been doing it for years. I know people who have 10 phones on their cell phone bill. Why can't my health insurance bundle with my car insurance? Why can't I get a discount for buying every form of my insurance from one company. Why can't I get a special type of insurance that covers sinus infections because I get one every $#@!ing time this year and I should be able to buy Sudafed in bulk at a reasonable price without looking like and being treated like a meth dealer.
    It is not quite the same thing as pooling for insurance in a world of unlimited minute and data plans. Now imagine a time when they still charged for data and you got into a pool with people who watched netflix on their phones all day? That is what it would feel like in healthcare if you pooled with people who were sickly. In that world, you would immediately be looking for a way out of the pool that had the netflix phones watchers and try and join one where people did not confuse their phones for their TVs.

    I personally think catastrophic type insurance is the only insurance plan that would dominate market if there were no state and federal regulations on isnurance.
    Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling…makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another, I’d rather not choose at all. Geralt of Rivia

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    It is not quite the same thing as pooling for insurance in a world of unlimited minute and data plans. Now imagine a time when they still charged for data and you got into a pool with people who watched netflix on their phones all day? That is what it would feel like in healthcare if you pooled with people who were sickly. In that world, you would immediately be looking for a way out of the pool that had the netflix phones watchers and try and join one where people did not confuse their phones for their TVs.

    I personally think catastrophic type insurance is the only insurance plan that would dominate market if there were no state and federal regulations on isnurance.
    I think I want to create a world with "unlimited minutes". I think we are already paying enough money for everyone to have healthcare, there are just a lot of middle men right now. Lets stop inflating our healthcare with warfare. Lets stop the dishonest accounting.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I personally think catastrophic type insurance is the only insurance plan that would dominate market if there were no state and federal regulations on isnurance.
    Well that you are right about, I wouldn't say insurance is bad, but I would say that government regulation causes people to over-insure. But the good thing about less insurance (more catastrophic type plans) is that people will bid down the price of health care so much that it would actually become affordable.. once prices came down, people might find that they don't mind buying a little extra health insurance because it doesn't cost as much.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    When I say Rand's plan would fail, I mean that it would fail in creating a pool that covers people with pre existing conditions. I think it would reduce the price of healthcare but that is not what I am talking about.
    It is a really simple answer,they won't get insurance and they will die. The outcome would be the same with single payer as well.

    What is never said about single payer is that unless you live in a crazy rich country like Norway/Lichtenstein there is never enough money to treat everything and there are commissions set up to say what and who gets prioritized.The same guy that would have to pay 2k per month for health insurance with single payer he would just be told to go home and die. You can not have everyone insured without single payer ,and you can't have single payer without state owned hospitals and quotas unless you can $#@! gold.

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    You don't think the FDA causes drug prices to sky rocket? Government Laws and regulations, that give these companies defacto monopolies. Are you saying there is nothing we can do to make any of that cheaper? Are you saying there are no jobs in the healthcare industry that can be automated? Are you saying there aren't jobs in healthcare that don't have the skill level of janitorial work? How is there going to be any marketplace for healthcare if there is no two way communication. You can't have a marketplace without demand, and right now there is no voting with your feet. When doctors start treating people like customers rather then annoyances then maybe we will have a marketplace.

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    Perhaps McSame was returned to the U.S. from "Vietnam" as a Manchurian Candidate. Who only made it to Senate. Maybe he was in Russia the entire time and not in Hanoi Hilton. Would seem consistent with his entirely un-American approach.

  22. #21

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    Rand has been doing non stop media interviews for a long while now, he is a man on a mission. Hardest working guy in DC.
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