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Thread: Equal Right Are Only For Equal People.

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I actually need to re-listen, it's been a while, but what it comes down to is that the word "rights" is too flawed, it is easily manipulated.
    That is true of any word when the audience in question is made up of Weakmen.

    It's easy to say that I have the right to do what I want as long as I don't hurt others, it's easy to say I have a right to free speech, etc.. the problem is that it is too easy to start applying rights to anything else.. I have a right to free health care, I have a right to education, etc..
    If that is Molyneux's thesis, it's a loser because if presupposes the inability of rational and clued-in men of the proper attitude are not able to refute the claims with cold and clinically cruel demolition.

    I believe he ends up falling back on NAP, but again I'll have to re-watch. I recommend you do, too. At least 10 or 15 minutes.
    The NAP seems insufficient to me. I think there are better instruments to the same end.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.


    Be a warrior abhorrent of war, willing to wage it in the face of trespass.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    I think you'll find the gray region between your Freeman and Weakman is incredibly more vast than that found through morality-testing hypotheticals. Unless you only want to consider pure Freemen. And that's to LOL.
    Not sure of your meaning here.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.


    Be a warrior abhorrent of war, willing to wage it in the face of trespass.

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    And yet, here you are.

    FAIL.
    That's true.

  5. #34

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    What? Out of steam in only 33 posts?

    I thought this was going to get bloody.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.


    Be a warrior abhorrent of war, willing to wage it in the face of trespass.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    h_h, which of your rights would you like to have infringed?

    Let's make it multiple choice:
    a) life
    b) liberty
    c) property
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    None, if those are the only ones.

    That *is* what I said. Already.

    Now if you get into a whole lot of other so-called "rights," you will get a different answer from me.
    No comment, @undergroundrr ?
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  7. #36

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    Also, @undergroundrr , since you tacked up the Animal Farm poster, let's get into it a little more:

    Which was the more ridiculous: the original motto, or the revised one?

    I would say the original. The revised was at least closer to the truth, while dutifully phrasing it to remain within the confines of barnyard PC acceptability. Obviously animals are in no way equal, in no way whatsoever. A horse is not equal to a chicken. A pure-bred champion horse is not equal to a mongrel horse. Etc., etc. "All animals are equal" is simply a lie, counter to all reality. "Some animals are better than others" is the absolute truth, irrefutable and eternal.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  8. #37

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    The only rights are property rights.

    Everyone's property rights should be respected.

    That is the extent of equality.

  9. #38

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    From another thread:

    Equality for equals. If you will not defend your rights, then you have them not. Equality for equals stems as much from attitude as anything else, if not more.
    "Will not" is very different from "cannot". And here my notion of equality only for equals comes into sharper focus. A right is only a right if one asserts it. If I claim not my own life, then why would another be at fault for laying claim to it? Is there any special circumstance that elevates a man's very life above the objective status of a tree branch one finds on a forest trail? If I can pick up such a twig and claim it as mine in the absence of any countervailing claim, why then can I not do it with the life of another man?

    These are serious, non-rhetorical questions of a philosophical nature. It would be interesting to see a valid and convincing explanation in support of special status. The emotional argument, while compelling for obvious reasons, doesn't cut it in the least.

    Those incapable of asserting their claims presents a somewhat trickier proposition. But those who are perfectly able to assert their claims, yet fail to do so - have they not renounced those claims? There is the strong and IMO valid argument in favor of the negative right, which holds sacrosanct the fundamental claims inherent to all men such that we as individuals are not called upon by others to reassert our rights fifteen thousand times per minute against the criminal challenges of others. But what of the case where some party, oh I dunno... lets just say "government", violates the people's rights over and over again on a minute by minute basis? While it is true that government should not commit such violations in the first place, the reality is that they do so while claiming authority, rendering such situations under very special light because they claim justice in such acts. Such claims cannot, IMO, remain unanswered. In the absence of credibly forceful defensive measures by those violated, are the claims of justice not given tacit acceptance, thereby effectively constituting renunciation of one's claims? If you will not defend your rights against positive threat, when perfectly capable of doing so, have you not turned your back to those claims in all positive fact?

    Or are we to posit the only other possibility, that those rights are sacrosanct no matter what we might do in their defense, including nothing? This may be proper principle in evidence, but what of positive practice? My rights mean little as I lay, face down in the mud, a hobnailed jack-boot on my neck.

    What do you all think?
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.


    Be a warrior abhorrent of war, willing to wage it in the face of trespass.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post

    What do you all think?
    Government, and those who would act on her behalf are only entitled to the authority freemen won't fight and die for.

    I think the Tee-Vee has wrought most men brain-dead with a convoluted sense of loyalty and morality..

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I believe that all men are created equal. and all have rights

    That is not to say there is no difference in abilities or talents,, or acquired wealth.
    This +rep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    The only rights are property rights.

    Everyone's property rights should be respected.

    That is the extent of equality.
    What about property tax?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post

    Or are we to posit the only other possibility, that those rights are sacrosanct no matter what we might do in their defense, including nothing? This may be proper principle in evidence, but what of positive practice? My rights mean little as I lay, face down in the mud, a hobnailed jack-boot on my neck.

    What do you all think?
    I think I have been there far too often.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    No comment, @undergroundrr ?
    I agreed with your comment, didn't think it needed any additional input.
    We ask you to be so good as to pass a law requiring the closing of all windows, dormers, skylights, inside and outside shutters, curtains, casements, bull's-eyes, deadlights, and blinds — in short, all openings, holes, chinks, and fissures through which the light of the sun is wont to enter houses, to the detriment of the fair industries with which, we are proud to say, we have endowed the country, a country that cannot, without betraying ingratitude, abandon us today to so unequal a combat.

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Also, @undergroundrr , since you tacked up the Animal Farm poster, let's get into it a little more:

    Which was the more ridiculous: the original motto, or the revised one?

    I would say the original. The revised was at least closer to the truth, while dutifully phrasing it to remain within the confines of barnyard PC acceptability. Obviously animals are in no way equal, in no way whatsoever. A horse is not equal to a chicken. A pure-bred champion horse is not equal to a mongrel horse. Etc., etc. "All animals are equal" is simply a lie, counter to all reality. "Some animals are better than others" is the absolute truth, irrefutable and eternal.
    The author wasn't implying a moral framework by which to assign some normative value judgement to different animal species. Animal Farm is a satire, not an attempt to write a biology textbook.
    We ask you to be so good as to pass a law requiring the closing of all windows, dormers, skylights, inside and outside shutters, curtains, casements, bull's-eyes, deadlights, and blinds — in short, all openings, holes, chinks, and fissures through which the light of the sun is wont to enter houses, to the detriment of the fair industries with which, we are proud to say, we have endowed the country, a country that cannot, without betraying ingratitude, abandon us today to so unequal a combat.

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    What about property tax?
    What about it?

  17. #46

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    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" -Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.

    "To understand political power, we must consider the condition in which nature puts all men. It is a state of perfect freedom to do as they wish and dispose of themselves and their possessions as they think fit, within the bounds of the laws of nature. They need not ask permission or the consent of any other man.
    The state of nature is also a state of equality. No one has more power or authority than another. Since all human beings have the same advantages and the use of the same skills, they should be equal to each other. The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it. Reason is the law. It teaches that all men are equal and independent, and that no one ought to harm another in his life, liberty, or possessions." -John Locke, Two Treatises On Government


    Whether you think God gives you equal rights or you're an atheist and believes that mere human biology gives you equal human rights, it is all the same. All people are equal, irregardless of where they are from or where they live, their age, their sex, their religion, everything.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" -Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence.

    "To understand political power, we must consider the condition in which nature puts all men. It is a state of perfect freedom to do as they wish and dispose of themselves and their possessions as they think fit, within the bounds of the laws of nature. They need not ask permission or the consent of any other man.
    The state of nature is also a state of equality. No one has more power or authority than another. Since all human beings have the same advantages and the use of the same skills, they should be equal to each other. The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it. Reason is the law. It teaches that all men are equal and independent, and that no one ought to harm another in his life, liberty, or possessions." -John Locke, Two Treatises On Government


    Whether you think God gives you equal rights or you're an atheist and believes that mere human biology gives you equal human rights, it is all the same. All people are equal, irregardless of where they are from or where they live, their age, their sex, their religion, everything.
    Like the NAP this is a good and noble idea.........

    Until somebody with a bigger stick and a less pure ideology comes along.

    Rights are what you're willing to die to protect not words in a tome.

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Like the NAP this is a good and noble idea.........

    Until somebody with a bigger stick and a less pure ideology comes along.

    Rights are what you're willing to die to protect not words in a tome.
    If you're willing to live and die like a pig then there are no important ways in which you are not a pig.

    Words in a tome tell you what things are worth dying for. If you aren't educated then you end like so many American soldiers, dying for something stupid to benefit those who do know how to use the words in the book to their own ends.

    Book of Eli was right about that.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    If you're willing to live and die like a pig then there are no important ways in which you are not a pig.

    Words in a tome tell you what things are worth dying for. If you aren't educated then you end like so many American soldiers, dying for something stupid to benefit those who do know how to use the words in the book to their own ends.

    Book of Eli was right about that.
    Granted, tomes have their place but trying to discuss philosophical differences with government agents pointing automatic weapons at you doesn't make sense....

    One must know what or who he is willing to die for before he must decide....

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    I agreed with your comment, didn't think it needed any additional input.
    Well, it all depends on what you're trying to have happen, I guess. You had a-ccused-sked me and a couple others of being anti-rights villains, wanting to take away your precious God-given Rights. So then when it turns out to not be true... seems like that would warrant something.

    So, again, it all depends on what you are trying to have happen here. If you were wanting to have a conversation, replying would have been natural. If you're wanting to just virtue-signal and be annoying, then yeah, throwing around accusations and then ignoring replies would be the best course.

    All up to you!
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Animal Farm is a satire.
    Ahh, but what is being skewered?

    I think most people interpret it as mocking hypocrisy: the leadership's not following through on the promises of the Equality Revolution, promises which were pure and good.

    But actually, the promises were nonsensical and ridiculous and anti-reality. The ideology of the left, given to us straight:

    "All animals are equal"

    ... that ideology is the hilarious (and tragic) nonsense in the book. The

    "some are more equal than others"

    is just the obvious truth.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Like the NAP this is a good and noble idea.........

    Until somebody with a bigger stick and a less pure ideology comes along.
    He who is least willing to be bound shall prevail, all else equal. This is the basis of my notion of "least denominator". He who will stoop lowest, wins, AEE.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Granted, tomes have their place but trying to discuss philosophical differences with government agents pointing automatic weapons at you doesn't make sense....

    One must know what or who he is willing to die for before he must decide....
    IOW, appeals to reason made to the unreasoning are pointless. It's like having a phone conversation with the deaf.

    "I can see!" said the blind man to his deaf daughter.

  25. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    If you're willing to live and die like a pig then there are no important ways in which you are not a pig.
    This was expressed in the Protocols where it was asserted (paraphrasing) that those who refuse to use their brains are no different from those who have none.

  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    If you were wanting to have a conversation, replying would have been natural.
    Well, I also took my wife and kids out of town for a several days of fresh air in southern Oklahoma. Please don't feel put out, my friend.
    We ask you to be so good as to pass a law requiring the closing of all windows, dormers, skylights, inside and outside shutters, curtains, casements, bull's-eyes, deadlights, and blinds — in short, all openings, holes, chinks, and fissures through which the light of the sun is wont to enter houses, to the detriment of the fair industries with which, we are proud to say, we have endowed the country, a country that cannot, without betraying ingratitude, abandon us today to so unequal a combat.

  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Ahh, but what is being skewered?
    Well, Lenin and Stalin if we're to be literal. Trotsky gets a pass. But as with any work of art, people of all worldviews (and levels of equality) will steal it for their own bias.

    And as with so much good art, interpretation is somewhat open. Here's the one I like. Rights (the equal ones) will be violated in proportion to the authoritarianism of the current power structure. In Animal Farm, the various animals abdicate their own rights to Trumpoleon presuming that his strong leadership will protect them from outside threats.
    We ask you to be so good as to pass a law requiring the closing of all windows, dormers, skylights, inside and outside shutters, curtains, casements, bull's-eyes, deadlights, and blinds — in short, all openings, holes, chinks, and fissures through which the light of the sun is wont to enter houses, to the detriment of the fair industries with which, we are proud to say, we have endowed the country, a country that cannot, without betraying ingratitude, abandon us today to so unequal a combat.

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Well, I also took my wife and kids out of town for a several days of fresh air in southern Oklahoma. Please don't feel put out, my friend.
    No worries about delay, of course. I just found your terse reply unsatisfying, naturally.

    "You are an evil nasty villain wanting to take away all my rights!"

    "Actually, here are my views: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... I'm not wanting to take your rights away at all."

    "I silently agreed with your comment."
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 03-21-2017 at 01:00 PM.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  29. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Rights (the equal ones) will be violated in proportion to the authoritarianism of the current power structure.
    Is hierarchy authoritarian? As in, all hierarchy, not just the aggressive-usurping kind.
    The rebel of the 21st Century will be old-fashioned.

    No enemies to the right

  30. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I believe that all men are created equal. and all have rights

    That is not to say there is no difference in abilities or talents,, or acquired wealth.
    My POV exactly.

    And I believe the Declaration to be the greatest American document.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Is hierarchy authoritarian? As in, all hierarchy, not just the aggressive-usurping kind.
    It depends on how much unrighteous dominion is being exercised.
    We ask you to be so good as to pass a law requiring the closing of all windows, dormers, skylights, inside and outside shutters, curtains, casements, bull's-eyes, deadlights, and blinds — in short, all openings, holes, chinks, and fissures through which the light of the sun is wont to enter houses, to the detriment of the fair industries with which, we are proud to say, we have endowed the country, a country that cannot, without betraying ingratitude, abandon us today to so unequal a combat.

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