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Thread: How far we've gone astray

  1. #31
    Wow, the empathy and ignorance is astonishing. You are believing in a cult, the idea that you can somehow live in Adam's America or Jefferson. It isn't ravings, it is fact.

    When Paul spoke of looking back on the founders, he was peddling the myths that people like yourself love to believe in. Even got an ignorant teenage adult like me thinking his world view was possible, not realizing at the time, he wasn't an advocate for poor people, only if they lived lives like he has, or had his luck. That is how many people think when they have success, but they are wrong.

    The only way to a just society is some social programs, and a balanced view on people, not these people are lazy and useless, and needy greedy bastards, because they are poor, which may be true, but the wealthy concentrate on wealth and exploitation too, so they are not warren Buffet as some like to imagine.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    You are believing in a cult, .
    No Guy,,

    Not a Cult.. An Idea..

    and Principles in line with that Idea.

    Freedom.

    Ron Paul represented ME.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  5. #33
    Freedom from what, a government that takes too much tax from ordinary people or the wealthy or both?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Freedom from what, a government that takes too much tax from ordinary people or the wealthy or both?
    You ignored all my posts conveniently. Its generally not individuals that screwed natives over, not even colonialism, but most often bad actors in a too large government, bypassing the constitution.

    Many of the founders were racist bigots, but they recognized that their bigotry should be kept far from raw naked power.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  7. #35
    Yes that is true, but that doesn't change what happened. Native people would need to change their countries, but American people would need to let go of the lands, only Western Shoshone and Tohono O’odham nation seem realistic territories for independent nations.

    As for the expanding beyond one's borders, libertarian convenience that paul spoke of was just playing to an ignorant audience, and he probably knew that or at least preferred the American myths that so many here like. Even on youtube, there is no empathy from Nevadans for Western Shoshone. Even though that is all federal land. But that Bundy guy was encroaching on their land.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Yes that is true, but that doesn't change what happened. Native people would need to change their countries, but American people would need to let go of the lands, only Western Shoshone and Tohono O’odham nation seem realistic territories for independent nations.

    As for the expanding beyond one's borders, libertarian convenience that paul spoke of was just playing to an ignorant audience, and he probably knew that or at least preferred the American myths that so many here like. Even on youtube, there is no empathy from Nevadans for Western Shoshone. Even though that is all federal land. But that Bundy guy was encroaching on their land.

    Do you have an extra copy of chromosome 21?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people...



    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!


    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What kind of moron are you, they had far more rights than we do.
    No, they didn't.

    Tens of millions of people were literal and actual slaves, beaten, tortured, robbed, raped, and violated daily. They could even be murdered and it would be illegal to try and stop it from happening. Even free blacks were specifically told by the SCOTUS that they had no rights whatsoever in the USA.

    Women, 50% of the entire human population, didn't lack just the rights to vote, but they had no rights to property, liberty, money, or pursue happiness. They had no freedom of speech or action, considered to be wards of their husbands like children.

    Millions of Native Americans had their villages destroyed, homes burned, women raped, and children slaughtered because they already live don land the Americans wished to conquer. They were locked up in giant concentration camps, forbidden to leave, and intentionally starved by a government that first forced the Natives into dependence on it and then refused to feed them once they were reduced to such dependency. Their children were taken from them by force and sent to schools where their names were changed, hair was cut, where they were beaten until they "converted" to Christianity, and beaten some more if they spoke their native tongue. If the Natives fought back they were slaughtered. If they even attempted to flee, looking for food and medicine, they were disarmed and then slaughtered, as at Wounded Knee.

    The only people with "rights" were a small minority of white land owners. Not even white men because if you didn't own property then you didn't vote. You had to obey and be happy or, like Daniel Shay and the whiskey makers of Pennsylvania you found out that the state would summon overwhelming force and murder you where you stood.

    When the vast majority of the human population is completely disenfranchised and has no rights whatsoever then insisting they "had more rights than we do" is either romantic delusion or intentional stupidity.
    ďMaybe I forgot to mention something to you: I donít believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.Ē -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    You ignored all my posts conveniently. Its generally not individuals that screwed natives over, not even colonialism, but most often bad actors in a too large government, bypassing the constitution.

    Many of the founders were racist bigots, but they recognized that their bigotry should be kept far from raw naked power.
    I don't buy it. A government is nothing but a group of individuals who all agree to act in certain ways. If it does anything it is only because a majority of the people agree to it happening. And most people certainly had no problem with committing genocide on the Natives.

    If anything, by allowing for a greater concentration of power and greater coordination of action, the Constitution made it even more possible for the people to organize into a military large enough and well armed enough to overwhelm and murder the Natives.
    ďMaybe I forgot to mention something to you: I donít believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.Ē -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    No, they didn't.
    Yes they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Tens of millions of people were literal and actual slaves, beaten, tortured, robbed, raped, and violated daily. They could even be murdered and it would be illegal to try and stop it from happening. Even free blacks were specifically told by the SCOTUS that they had no rights whatsoever in the USA.
    Slavery which was common through out the world is not under discussion, we are talking about the rights of free citizens, had all the slaves been freed they would have had more rights than we do and freeing them would not have required reducing those rights, therefore slavery is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Women, 50% of the entire human population, didn't lack just the rights to vote, but they had no rights to property, liberty, money, or pursue happiness. They had no freedom of speech or action, considered to be wards of their husbands like children.
    You are confusing America with an islamic country but even if we take your exaggerated claims at face value or just deal with their lack of franchise it doesn't matter, everything I said about slavery applies and they even had more rights than slaves, women are irrelevant to this discusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Millions of Native Americans had their villages destroyed, homes burned, women raped, and children slaughtered because they already live don land the Americans wished to conquer. They were locked up in giant concentration camps, forbidden to leave, and intentionally starved by a government that first forced the Natives into dependence on it and then refused to feed them once they were reduced to such dependency. Their children were taken from them by force and sent to schools where their names were changed, hair was cut, where they were beaten until they "converted" to Christianity, and beaten some more if they spoke their native tongue. If the Natives fought back they were slaughtered. If they even attempted to flee, looking for food and medicine, they were disarmed and then slaughtered, as at Wounded Knee.
    Again everything I said about slaves applies, the natives are irrelevant to this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The only people with "rights" were a small minority of white land owners. Not even white men because if you didn't own property then you didn't vote.
    Even before franchise was extended to all adult males those without it had far more rights than we do today.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    You had to obey and be happy or, like Daniel Shay and the whiskey makers of Pennsylvania you found out that the state would summon overwhelming force and murder you where you stood.

    When the vast majority of the human population is completely disenfranchised and has no rights whatsoever then insisting they "had more rights than we do" is either romantic delusion or intentional stupidity.
    Now everyone has been reduced to a status just above slavery, they definitely had more rights back then.

    You usually carp and exaggerate the loss of rights that has taken place over the course of history but I guess your obsessive compulsion to argue with me has overpowered that , alternatively your secret communist beliefs are causing you to rush to the defense of the modern prison-state.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    I don't buy it. A government is nothing but a group of individuals who all agree to act in certain ways. If it does anything it is only because a majority of the people agree to it happening. And most people certainly had no problem with committing genocide on the Natives.
    No, government is composed of the rich and powerful in and out of official offices, their beliefs and behavior are often quite different from the common citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    If anything, by allowing for a greater concentration of power and greater coordination of action, the Constitution made it even more possible for the people to organize into a military large enough and well armed enough to overwhelm and murder the Natives.
    It didn't make it much easie and in spite of its drawbacks it did a very good job of preserving the rights of the common man compared to every other government on the planet.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    The last group to give up owning slaves in the USA were the native tribes.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  15. #42
    And that means what exactly, that all of them were at it too? Why so many white folk on here prefer myths? I'm white myself, but don't sugar coat history, it was awful to of lived as a Native in many places, sure life among native life was good either, but neither among whites with whites.

    The subject isn't about the past, or point scoring about Natives, white America ignored these people for so long, and Mr Paul or his son didn't help at all on this subject.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    And that means what exactly, that all of them were at it too? Why so many white folk on here prefer myths? I'm white myself, but don't sugar coat history, it was awful to of lived as a Native in many places, sure life among native life was good either, but neither among whites with whites.

    The subject isn't about the past, or point scoring about Natives, white America ignored these people for so long, and Mr Paul or his son didn't help at all on this subject.
    You are incoherent.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    And that means what exactly, that all of them were at it too? Why so many white folk on here prefer myths? I'm white myself, but don't sugar coat history, it was awful to of lived as a Native in many places, sure life among native life was good either, but neither among whites with whites.

    The subject isn't about the past, or point scoring about Natives, white America ignored these people for so long, and Mr Paul or his son didn't help at all on this subject.
    You won't get to reconciliation, damages, restoration, or anything of that nature until the rule of law s restored. The government violated the rights of natives. For some reason you don't care about that though.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    we are talking about the rights of free citizens
    That would include women, whose lack of rights you deem irrelevant. How obtuse can you be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    even if we take your exaggerated claims at face value
    Your ignorance of history is astonishing. Aside from their lack of the franchise, married women had no property rights -- husbands had the legal right to control their wives' property; wives couldn't enter into contracts or bring suit in their own names without their husbands' consent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Now everyone has been reduced to a status just above slavery, they definitely had more rights back then.
    Well, they did have one right we don't have today: the legal right to own another human being.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    That would include women, whose lack of rights you deem irrelevant. How obtuse can you be?
    I said it was irrelevant because their reduced rights were not required for everyone else to have the rights we have been stripped of.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Your ignorance of history is astonishing. Aside from their lack of the franchise, married women had no property rights -- husbands had the legal right to control their wives' property; wives couldn't enter into contracts or bring suit in their own names without their husbands' consent.
    The other idiot I was arguing with didn't limit his statement to married women.





    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Well, they did have one right we don't have today: the legal right to own another human being.
    They had many others that we have been robbed of or that have been watered down to the point of uselessness.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    There is a reason why people flock to libertarianism, because it is the lack of thought for the wider world, and people, that somehow government alone is always the problem, when we are all the problem.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    There is a reason why people flock to libertarianism, because it is the lack of thought for the wider world, and people, that somehow government alone is always the problem, when we are all the problem.
    Government multiplies the problem in almost all cases.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  22. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No you are simplistic, and being purposely ignorant on history, Mr paul did this during the 2008 election cycle. He ignored Natives as one perfect example, and even not them, the fact that Hawaii became a state in 1959 that alone was not ever mentioned by Paul, or Alaska, even bought by America in 1867. America cannot be a nation it was founded or take advice from some man over two centuries ago, who is now equivalent to an imperfect Jesus figure or someone from religion.

    And even if you aren't being ignorant you are deluding yourself into thinking this liberty experiment with no intervention can actually work in a modern world. We live in post 1945. We need a UN.
    Why? We have these new fangled things called telephones.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    There is a reason why people flock to libertarianism, because it is the lack of thought for the wider world, and people, that somehow government alone is always the problem, when we are all the problem.
    I agree that government alone is not the problem. What's your idea of nirvana? Are you thinking world government would solve the problems?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    I agree that government alone is not the problem. What's your idea of nirvana? Are you thinking world government would solve the problems?
    He is thinking that..as are many.

    I oppose it,, but also accept that it will in fact be a reality. a Horrible reality.

    It may be delayed some more... but it's coming.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    I read of this in the found brothers book a snippet, nearly ten years back. At the end of the day it made sense then for the country, and people like Mr Paul who supported these ideas. But doesn't work today.
    This is the perennial excuse made by the lefties and other statist acolytes for increasing Theire prerogatives at the expense of those of others, ironically including their own. These people are so deeply corrupted with ->FAIL, they actually think they gain some net benefit from supporting tyranny. And there you have it in a nutshell - why voting is a system degenerate and why, if one insists on having it, a standard for intellect and clue and attitude is necessary in order for voting not to go haywire. Then there's the problem of the standard itself, which we won't even get into here.

    Yeah, we need to ignore the 2A because though it made sense then, it doesn't work today.

    We need to repeal the 1A because though it made sense then, it doesn't work today.

    We need to squelch the 4A because though it made sense then, it doesn't work today.

    We no longer want the 5A because it made sense then, but doesn't work today.

    The 9A is a relic because because even though it made sense then, it doesn't work today.

    The 10A is wholly impractical and must be excised because though it made sense then, it doesn't work today.

    Hell, the Constitutional principles need to be ignored exactly because thought they made sense then, they don't work today.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "Itís just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill peopleís fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    There is a reason why people flock to libertarianism...
    Flock? Really? Show us.

    Were it so, would we not have a libertarian Congress, president, cabinet, etc.?

    People are decidedly not flocking to libertarianism, at least not that I can tell.

    But I agree with you completely that WE are the problem, particularly given that there is no such thing as "government", "the state", etc.

    The one thing Ron Paul peddled with which I wholly disagree was the slogan, "freedom is popular". Freedom, by any definition I would accept as valid, is by no means popular. Pretty slavery, OTOH, is very popular. The vast and overwhelming majority of humanity wants nothing to do with freedom, but everything to do with pretty slavery. The world chokes on available examples.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "Itís just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill peopleís fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  28. #54
    No freedom from disease, freedom from danger, freedom like the past that doesn't work with anyone in the modern world, this isn't the outback or the west.

    That is what i mean by some flock to the liberty idea, because it gives the freedom to live as one wants with no interest collectively in anything beyond their own lives, which leads to a sad society. There is a reason why there are so many churches in America to steal their money, and give hope to a society ravaged with no hope.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No freedom from disease, freedom from danger, freedom like the past that doesn't work with anyone in the modern world, this isn't the outback or the west.

    That is what i mean by some flock to the liberty idea, because it gives the freedom to live as one wants with no interest collectively in anything beyond their own lives, which leads to a sad society. There is a reason why there are so many churches in America to steal their money, and give hope to a society ravaged with no hope.
    Have you considered going to prison? It has all the benefits and amenities you so desperately desire.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No freedom from disease, freedom from danger, freedom like the past that doesn't work with anyone in the modern world, this isn't the outback or the west.

    That is what i mean by some flock to the liberty idea, because it gives the freedom to live as one wants with no interest collectively in anything beyond their own lives, which leads to a sad society. There is a reason why there are so many churches in America to steal their money, and give hope to a society ravaged with no hope.
    Ya know, in most of the USA its illegal to set up a hospital with lower prices. You need consent from all the existing hospital owners.

    In other countries with free market healthcare the costs are 10-20x lower. How is the government protecting healthcare providers margins giving anyone more freedom from disease?
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No freedom from disease, freedom from danger, freedom like the past that doesn't work with anyone in the modern world, this isn't the outback or the west.

    That is what i mean by some flock to the liberty idea, because it gives the freedom to live as one wants with no interest collectively in anything beyond their own lives, which leads to a sad society. There is a reason why there are so many churches in America to steal their money, and give hope to a society ravaged with no hope.
    You want freedom from reality and the only way to achieve it is to enslave everyone else.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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