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Thread: How far we've gone astray

  1. #1

    Post How far we've gone astray

    Ran across this yesterday... been awhile since I've read it. How far we've gone astray from the wisdom of our founding fathers.


    Excerpt from George Washington's Farewell Address (1796):

    "Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against
    the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

    "This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest
    passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all
    governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of
    the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.


    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge,
    natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has
    perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But
    this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders
    and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security
    and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the
    chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his
    competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on
    the ruins of public liberty.

    "Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to
    be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of
    party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to
    discourage and restrain it.

    "It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration.
    It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles
    the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and
    insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which
    finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of
    party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to
    the policy and will of another.

    "There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the
    administration of the government and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty.
    This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a
    monarchical cast, patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon
    the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments
    purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural
    tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every
    salutary purpose. And there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought
    to be by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be
    quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame,
    lest, instead of warming, it should consume."





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  3. #2
    I read of this in the found brothers book a snippet, nearly ten years back. At the end of the day it made sense then for the country, and people like Mr Paul who supported these ideas. But doesn't work today.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    I read of this in the found brothers book a snippet, nearly ten years back. At the end of the day it made sense then for the country, and people like Mr Paul who supported these ideas. But doesn't work today.
    It would work, what government does now doesn't work.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Government today works better than it has, it may be bloated and mismanaged, but the government of John Adams wouldn't work today, neither would Jefferson or Madison, or Monroe.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Government today works better than it has, it may be bloated and mismanaged, but the government of John Adams wouldn't work today, neither would Jefferson or Madison, or Monroe.
    I beg to differ. George Washington had brilliant Cabinet officials around him, and a slightly autocratic but loyal vice-president. James Monroe had two positions inside James Madison's Cabinet, and was a very good president. Abraham Lincoln's Cabinet was as brilliant as Bill McKinley's one, and Elihu Root was a very good Sec' of State. In terms of talent, you are giving them demerits for quaintness, due to the fact that the modern era of the presidency arrives in full with the way FDR ran things.

    There are compelling reasons as to why Doctor Ron Paul would and does praise Grover Cleveland. Many of the people who arrived at prominence in the 1800s could function in a similar job or position during nearly all of the 20th Century. Today's youth HAVE TO BE computer literate, their elders got away with being technophobes at times. This is the ONLY true difference...

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Government today works better than it has, it may be bloated and mismanaged, but the government of John Adams wouldn't work today, neither would Jefferson or Madison, or Monroe.
    Idiocracy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    No it doesn't work, it doesn't. How can you compare the government and era of 1818 to the one of 2018? How? No rights, no medical science, no tech. Men worked on the land, the bitch tailored the cloths, they weren't the only ones, you get my point.

    Washington's farewell means little other than a reminder of the past, it doesn't cater to anyone's life today. And certainly the alliances part that doesn't fit in to today's America, even if American foreign policy should back off in certain places. Ultimately, the larger nation will dominate, if not America, I'm sure the Russians or may be the EU someday, or could be China. But ultimately somebody else does.

    There is no way to live on a planet without some kind of UN setup where no nation makes advances. When Paul spoke of the foreign policy of the past, it was just wishful thinking, and misinterpreting history.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No it doesn't work, it doesn't. How can you compare the government and era of 1818 to the one of 2018? How? No rights, no medical science, no tech. Men worked on the land, the bitch tailored the cloths, they weren't the only ones, you get my point.
    I Get your Lazy Point
    For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    But doesn't work today.
    Proud, Arrogant, and Mocker are the names of him who acts with excessive pride. The craving of the sluggard will kill him because his hands refuse to work. All day long he covets more, but the righteous give without restraint.…

    The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, while the soul of the diligent is richly supplied.

    Idle hands make one poor, but diligent hands bring wealth.

    The plans of the diligent bring plenty, as surely as haste leads to poverty.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No it doesn't work, it doesn't. How can you compare the government and era of 1818 to the one of 2018? How? No rights,
    What kind of moron are you, they had far more rights than we do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    no medical science, no tech. Men worked on the land, the bitch tailored the cloths, they weren't the only ones, you get my point.
    I get your idiotic attempt at making a point but government didn't improve any of those things, it mostly got in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Washington's farewell means little other than a reminder of the past, it doesn't cater to anyone's life today. And certainly the alliances part that doesn't fit in to today's America, even if American foreign policy should back off in certain places. Ultimately, the larger nation will dominate, if not America, I'm sure the Russians or may be the EU someday, or could be China. But ultimately somebody else does.
    But we don't have to get involved, we can be prepared to defend ourselves and remain on friendly terms with everyone, America is particularly well positioned to avoid conflict but even nations on the Eurasian land mass can do it to a great degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    There is no way to live on a planet without some kind of UN setup where no nation makes advances.
    Yes there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    When Paul spoke of the foreign policy of the past, it was just wishful thinking, and misinterpreting history.
    That is what you do with regularity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    No you are simplistic, and being purposely ignorant on history, Mr paul did this during the 2008 election cycle. He ignored Natives as one perfect example, and even not them, the fact that Hawaii became a state in 1959 that alone was not ever mentioned by Paul, or Alaska, even bought by America in 1867. America cannot be a nation it was founded or take advice from some man over two centuries ago, who is now equivalent to an imperfect Jesus figure or someone from religion.

    And even if you aren't being ignorant you are deluding yourself into thinking this liberty experiment with no intervention can actually work in a modern world. We live in post 1945. We need a UN.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No you are simplistic, and being purposely ignorant on history, Mr paul did this during the 2008 election cycle. He ignored Natives as one perfect example, and even not them, the fact that Hawaii became a state in 1959 that alone was not ever mentioned by Paul, or Alaska, even bought by America in 1867. America cannot be a nation it was founded or take advice from some man over two centuries ago, who is now equivalent to an imperfect Jesus figure or someone from religion.

    And even if you aren't being ignorant you are deluding yourself into thinking this liberty experiment with no intervention can actually work in a modern world. We live in post 1945. We need a UN.
    We need common sense. It is in short supply.

  15. #13
    There is no common sense with Hawaii being a part of a federal Union, or Arizona, and not forgetting New Mexico, if America had been small than what it is by mere number of states, may be this whole idea of non intervention may of made sense, but it nonsense. One cannot preach non intervention when one's own history is no different than the current present events, the difference being that we have technology compared to a century ago.

    We live in a different world, there is corruption and so on, but just changing the politics of today to a century or more isn't workable.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post

    We live in a different world, there is corruption and so on, but just changing the politics of today to a century or more isn't workable.
    Says the disarmed socialist muttering in the crumbling remains of a failed Empire.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    British empire ended in 1997. The EU is free to remain, one less star on their flag. Doesn't mean the EU is going anywhere just yet.

    Like I've stated, it is true what some say if you remove the financial aspect of foreign policy, you still have groups to deal with. And nations that are too big always, and always have interests abroad.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No you are simplistic, and being purposely ignorant on history, Mr paul did this during the 2008 election cycle. He ignored Natives as one perfect example, and even not them, the fact that Hawaii became a state in 1959 that alone was not ever mentioned by Paul, or Alaska, even bought by America in 1867. America cannot be a nation it was founded or take advice from some man over two centuries ago, who is now equivalent to an imperfect Jesus figure or someone from religion.

    And even if you aren't being ignorant you are deluding yourself into thinking this liberty experiment with no intervention can actually work in a modern world. We live in post 1945. We need a UN.
    You are insane.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No you are simplistic, and being purposely ignorant on history, Mr paul did this during the 2008 election cycle. He ignored Natives as one perfect example, and even not them, the fact that Hawaii became a state in 1959 that alone was not ever mentioned by Paul, or Alaska, even bought by America in 1867. America cannot be a nation it was founded or take advice from some man over two centuries ago, who is now equivalent to an imperfect Jesus figure or someone from religion.

    And even if you aren't being ignorant you are deluding yourself into thinking this liberty experiment with no intervention can actually work in a modern world. We live in post 1945. We need a UN.
    The natives were pretty hard done by for the most part, but they were really $#@!ed when the government transcontinental mega projects terminated the treaty system in '73. Those railroads also caused 3 recessions and brought down two governments. All before Keynes was even born.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  21. #18
    Also just going to through it out there, in my country the government instituted gun control when it wanted to take the indigenous land it had sworn to protect.

    The government wanted the land because it was running a deficit and wanted to flip it for a profit.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are insane.
    He's the product of indoctrination...

    Most in the US are too only to a somewhat lesser extent.

    Still no excuse.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    He's the product of indoctrination...

    Most in the US are too only to a somewhat lesser extent.

    Still no excuse.
    Indoctrination does produce insanity, but RG is worse than most, even zippy does make such extreme and dogmatic claims.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Indoctrination does produce insanity, but RG is worse than most, even zippy does make such extreme and dogmatic claims.
    What if I am insane and would like to post my "thoughts" online. Is there a place for me?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What if I am insane and would like to post my "thoughts" online. Is there a place for me?
    The web is very large, there is probably some place that fits almost any kind of insanity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The web is very large, there is probably some place that fits almost any kind of insanity.
    Seems like RPF is one of those places due to mods inattention to the content of the posts.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Seems like RPF is one of those places due to mods inattention to the content of the posts.
    What is allowed is a separate question from what fits.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What if I am insane and would like to post my "thoughts" online. Is there a place for me?
    Reddit, Twitter, Facebook and others all exist to accommodate you.
    Oligarchy delenda est

    ďIf you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.Ē - Samuel Adams

  30. #26
    Everybody thinks that America as the country it is, can just leave the world affairs as is. Like I stated, if you can't see history then the liberty idea for the union can't work. It is funny that nobody in those debates years back never thought to question Mr Paul on the union and members of it.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Everybody thinks that America as the country it is, can just leave the world affairs as is. Like I stated, if you can't see history then the liberty idea for the union can't work. It is funny that nobody in those debates years back never thought to question Mr Paul on the union and members of it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Clearly they couldn't, because their homes sort of sit on native land.

  33. #29
    So the Chinese are now moving into first place, and America is being left behind. Not sure how will all this end. Then some future American politician will be like should of read Washington's farewell, it may of saved us. Of course that wouldn't make any sense since America is as big as china in geography. Not quite the same, some similarities. If the American way of life had been designed differently that could of also have scaled some involvement in world affairs. But like i stated, as much as many don't like this, a nation that grows in size, and people, GDP will always have interests, and even those selfish business folk who want to make money.

    I recently found some native hip hop. I found this 'burn your village to the ground' taken from that film, Addams family, the young girl who portrays herself as a future teller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNi__fnadTM

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    So the Chinese are now moving into first place, and America is being left behind. Not sure how will all this end. Then some future American politician will be like should of read Washington's farewell, it may of saved us. Of course that wouldn't make any sense since America is as big as china in geography. Not quite the same, some similarities. If the American way of life had been designed differently that could of also have scaled some involvement in world affairs. But like i stated, as much as many don't like this, a nation that grows in size, and people, GDP will always have interests, and even those selfish business folk who want to make money.

    I recently found some native hip hop. I found this 'burn your village to the ground' taken from that film, Addams family, the young girl who portrays herself as a future teller. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNi__fnadTM
    Your ravings aren't even worth a response, take them elsewhere.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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