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Thread: What happened when factory jobs moved from Warren, Ohio, to Juarez, Mexico

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    Exclamation What happened when factory jobs moved from Warren, Ohio, to Juarez, Mexico

    What happened when factory jobs moved from Warren, Ohio, to Juarez, Mexico

    http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-...htmlstory.html

    By KATE LINTHICUM | REPORTING FROM WARREN, OHIO, AND JUAREZ, MEXICO FEB 17, 2017

    Chris Wade reached into the darkness to silence his blaring alarm clock. It was 4:30 on a frigid winter morning in Warren, Ohio, and outside a fresh layer of snow blanketed the yard.

    Thank God, Wade thought to himself. He would be able to get out his plow and make some quick cash.

    Money never used to be a problem for Wade, 47, who owned a house with a pool back when he worked at Delphi Automotive, a parts manufacturer that for years was one of the biggest employers in this wooded stretch of northeastern Ohio. But 10 years after taking a buyout as part of Delphi’s ongoing shift of production out of the United States and into Mexico and China, the house and the pool were gone.

    Berta Alicia Lopez, 54, is the new face of Delphi. On a recent chilly morning, she woke before sunrise on the outskirts of Juarez, Mexico, and caught an unheated bus that dropped her an hour away at the Delphi plant.

    Lopez earns $1 an hour assembling cables and electronics that will eventually be installed into vehicles — the same work that Wade once did for $30 an hour. A farmer’s daughter who grew up in an impoverished stretch of rural Mexico, Lopez is proud to own a used Toyota sedan and a concrete block house.

    She frequently thanks God for the work, even if it is in a town troubled by drug violence, even if she doesn’t see many possibilities for earning more or advancing.

    The two workers live 1,800 miles and a border apart and have never met. But their stories embody the massive economic shift that has accompanied the rise of free trade.

    In the United States, that shift has contributed to the loss of jobs that once helped workers buy homes, pay for health insurance and send children to college. In Mexico, it brought jobs — though they didn’t create the kind of broad, middle-class prosperity they once had in America.

    President Trump has pledged to bring factory work back. But it may be too late to turn back the clock on the powerful forces shaping the lives of Wade and Lopez and two cities, one American and one Mexican, that remain inextricably linked by the geography of global economics.

    To hear Trump tell it, free trade deals and globalization have produced clear winners and clear losers.

    Delphi had been reducing its U.S. workforce for years before it moved most of its operations overseas in 2006.

    “Every time I see a Delphi and I see companies leaving, that wall gets a little bit higher, and keeps going up,” Trump promised at a campaign rally in Ohio a few days before the election. “We are going to fight Delphi and other companies and say, ‘Don't leave us, because there are going to be consequences.’”

    He has pledged to tax imports from Mexico and renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement, which eliminated most tariffs on the continent and, in Trump’s view, enriched Mexico at the expense of middle America.

    But the real legacy of NAFTA, which took effect in 1994, is more complicated.

    Nobody disputes that the loss of manufacturing has left a bruising mark in parts of the U.S., especially in places like the Rust Belt, where lower paying service industry jobs are increasingly replacing middle class factory positions. But many economists say changes in technology, along with competition with China, are more to blame than NAFTA.

    The period of steepest decline in manufacturing jobs, which fell from 17 million to 11 million between 2000 and 2010, is substantially attributable to the free import of goods manufactured more cheaply in China and increasing reliance on machines to do the jobs humans once did, according to Gordon Hanson, an economist and trade expert at UC San Diego.

    South of the border, free trade has indeed helped modernize Mexico by creating millions of jobs since the passage of NAFTA, boosting investment flow and helping to diversify the country’s manufacturing sector. Mexican workers now help build everything from Whirlpool washing machines to Bombardier jets.

    But wages have remained low, so that Mexico remains attractive to manufacturers who might otherwise be tempted to locate in China or elsewhere in Asia. Since NAFTA went into effect, there has been no change in the number of Mexicans living below the poverty line — more than half.

    Now, as Trump pushes companies to cancel plans for new factories in Mexico and vows to renegotiate trade deals, it appears more dramatic change is on the horizon.

    His administration has proposed a 20% tax on imports from Mexico and other countries with which the U.S. has a trade deficit. Economists say the plan poses a serious threat to Mexico, which sends roughly 80% of its exports to the U.S., and whose peso has plummeted amid fears of what the Trump administration may do.

    “It’s a new era,” Mexico’s president, Enrique Peña Nieto, said in a recent speech, warning that if trade deals are opened up, everything — including Mexico’s cooperation with the U.S. on matters of immigration and security — will be up for negotiation.

    Lopez is only vaguely aware of Trump — she’s too busy for politics.

    Wade said he just wants things to go back to the way they were.

    But even he sometimes wonders: “Is it too late?”

    The snow kept falling, so Wade called up some buddies he works with and fired up his plow.

    He sipped coffee from a thermos as he wove along a country lane through a landscape that looked like a Thomas Kinkade painting, with cornfields and churches and quaint clapboard houses all cloaked in white.

    His first job was to clear the driveway of an industrial park that once belonged to Delphi.

    “That’s when times was good,” Wade said in his raspy drawl. “That’s when I liked this place.”

    Delphi began as Packard Electric, which started out in Warren in 1890 making light bulbs, but later branched out to auto parts. It became a division of General Motors in 1932, eventually expanding to include factories across the U.S.

    The company’s factories in Warren paid middle class wages and helped build a prosperous city, with bustling streets lined with handsome brick buildings.

    Both of Wade’s parents worked for Packard, earning enough to take the family on summer vacations and build a swimming pool in the backyard. Growing up, Wade heard stories at the dinner table each night about what had happened that day on the factory floor.

    By then, Packard had started reducing its U.S. workforce by moving some of its operations to Mexico to take advantage of lower labor costs in cities such as Juarez, which was inviting foreign companies to build factories there while paying minimal taxes. The threat that more jobs could be shifted overseas forced union representatives in Ohio to make concessions in salaries and benefits.

    Still, Wade’s brother and sister-in-law went to work at the Warren factory after high school and Wade figured he’d land there too.

    By the time he did — in 1993, after a stint in the Navy that ended with a knee injury — the union workforce in Warren had dropped to less than 9,000, compared with 13,000 a decade earlier.

    Still, Wade was happy with his life. He worked nights on the assembly line and cashed his paychecks every Thursday at the bar across the street. On days off, he went duck shooting with his chocolate Labrador, Hunter.

    By the early 2000s, after Packard had been renamed Delphi Automotive Systems and spun off as a company independent of GM, Wade had the house and pool. His wife drove a brand new Trailblazer, and he drove a new Chevrolet pickup.

    He had no idea what was coming.

    Lopez grew up in Bermejillo, a dusty town in the state of Durango, where her stepfather spent his days in the sun, irrigating cotton and melon fields. Her mom had pulled her out of school when she was in fifth grade.

    “Why study if you’re just going to work and have babies?” her mother told her.

    Sure enough, by the time she was 17 she had a son, the first of her five children.

    For centuries, people in Bermejillo made their living in the fields, and Lopez had little reason to think she would be any different.

    But NAFTA made things hard on small Mexican farmers, who found themselves competing with imports from giant U.S. agribusinesses, many of which received healthy subsidies from the U.S. government. In places like Bermejillo, a generation of young people were suddenly out of work, and many headed north to the U.S.

    Others went to frontier towns such as Juarez.

    As NAFTA took effect, Juarez was transformed overnight from a desert oasis best known for its nightclubs and casinos into a sprawling grid of concrete industrial buildings intersected by dirt roads. The population grew faster than officials could build highways, schools and other infrastructure.

    Migration to cities like Juarez also marked a cultural shift. Parents worked all day, and without extended family to look after them, children often found themselves alone. Drug cartels, whose power was growing, found easy recruits. As the city erupted into gang warfare, murders spiked, along with suicides and violence against women.

    Lopez had been working in a cafe for $5 a week when a truck driver passing through town told her about new factory jobs up north. She arrived in Juarez in 1996 with her husband and five children. Her eldest son, then 16, who had not been able to find work in Durango, immediately found a job at a maquiladora, as they call the U.S. factories that had begun to proliferate along the Mexican side of the border.

    So did Lopez, at Delphi, where on her first day she was so nervous she offered to clean the bathrooms instead of working on the floor.

    “God helped me,” she recalled. “However good or bad, at least we had work.”

    She took to factory life — gossiping with the other workers on breaks, earning the equivalent of a GED in classes offered after her shifts, making peace with living in a big city far from home. Then in 2001, her second eldest son committed suicide.

    She was so despondent after his death that for the first time she stayed home from work. One of her managers at Delphi traveled to her neighborhood and gently persuaded her to return to the factory floor.

    Lopez thought about returning to Durango, but she knew there would be no good jobs there. She resigned herself to the fact that the Delphi factory was probably the best place she’d ever work, and that Juarez was now her home.

    “If I didn't have the job, I wouldn't eat,” she said.

    Delphi had its own listing on the New York Stock Exchange, but its fortunes still rode on General Motors, its biggest customer. When the car company slumped in 2004, the transnational auto parts maker went into a tailspin.

    The next year — amid an accounting fraud scandal in which the SEC fined several top executives — Delphi filed for bankruptcy.

    Its board hired a new chief executive, Robert Miller, who complained that the company’s U.S. workers were overpaid, with labor costs triple that of other unionized auto suppliers.

    In March 2006, Delphi announced it was closing or selling 21 of its 29 American plants, a move that eliminated more than 20,000 jobs, or about two-thirds of its total workforce. Operations were shipped to factories in China or Mexico, where Delphi now has about 70,000 employees working at factories in 20 cities.

    Most of the plants in Warren remained open, but with a much smaller workforce. While Miller got a sendoff package that by one account was worth $35 million, workers were urged to take a buyout and warned that if they stayed, their wages would drop from an average of $29 an hour to $16.50.

    On the day he walked away from Delphi with a buyout package worth $140,000, Wade was, as he put it, “fired up.” “The CEOs and the guys at the top make millions while everybody else can barely survive,” he said. “It’s not right.”

    In Trumbull County, the former manufacturing and steel stronghold where Warren is located, the Delphi cuts felt like kicking a guy who was already down.

    Wade’s post-Delphi years were not easy. Shortly after leaving the factory, he went through a divorce and narrowly avoided prison after being pulled over while drunk and with unlicensed guns in his car.

    He had received his truck driver's license, but the DUI eliminated that career plan. He earned a certification to sell insurance, but that didn’t pan out either.

    He works in roofing now during the summer and plows snow in the winter. After a decade, he’s making about what he was when he worked at Delphi. But he doesn’t have the security of a pension, paid vacation or health insurance. If he had kept his job at Delphi, he would be just seven years from retirement.

    Wade doesn’t want to hear about the Mexican workers who replaced him. He boils when he hears what low wages they get paid, and is equally angry about immigrants who work illegally in the U.S.

    He liked that Trump called out Mexico on the issue. It was the kind of talk that helped persuade Wade, a lifelong Democrat and union member, to give Trump his vote. He was joined by many others in Trumbull County, which voted Republican for president for the first time since 1972.

    Brian Lutz, shop steward with the union that once represented Wade, said he understands the anti-establishment anger.

    “I hear all the time people who say why would I continue to vote for a Democrat when all the people I worked with are gone and the Democrats haven’t done what we sent them to do?” he said.

    His union recently negotiated a contract that starts workers at $13 an hour. That’s about 10 times as much as Lopez takes home from the Delphi plant in Juarez today, two decades into her career there.

    At the end of the shift in Juarez one recent afternoon, hundreds of workers streamed out of the Delphi factory toward the long line of white buses that take them home. Lopez climbed onto No. 6621, which headed east along the U.S. border, past dozens of other factories and a slew of big box stores.

    It dropped Lopez in New Lands, a grid-like housing development that rises from the sand on the outskirts of the city. Overweight and suffering from diabetes, she shuffled past the Toyota in her driveway.

    Trump’s warnings to companies to keep their business in America are already having an effect on the Mexican economy. Last month, after being criticized by Trump on Twitter, Ford announced it is canceling plans to build a new $1.6-billion factory in Mexico, opting instead to hire workers in Michigan.

    Trump claimed credit, though the company said market demand was a bigger factor. The Mexico factory was designed to build small cars, but as gas prices have fallen, demand has shifted toward bigger models made in Michigan.

    But some companies that produce goods in Mexico say there’s no going back to the U.S. That includes Delphi.

    The company just announced a plan for more layoffs in Warren, where only 1,500 employees remain.

    Speaking at Barclay's Global Automotive Conference in New York in December, Delphi’s chief financial officer Joe Massaro explained what he thought would happen to Delphi under several Trump trade scenarios.

    If Trump were to close the border with Mexico outright, “in less than a week, all the people who voted for him in Michigan and Ohio would be out of work,” Massaro argued, underscoring the fact that many factories in the U.S., including car makers in Detroit, depend on parts made in Mexico.

    If the United States were to withdraw from NAFTA and start taxing imports from Mexico again, Delphi would continue doing business in Mexico, he said. The company would pass on the extra cost to its suppliers or to consumers, or would find a way to reduce its production costs — which could mean layoffs or salary cuts in Mexico.

    What it all means for Lopez and her family, she is not sure.

    Of her four children, three work in factories.

    For the last couple of years, every spare peso has gone to pay the college tuition for her youngest son, Sergio, who is studying computer engineering. He dreams of starting a software company that can compete with U.S. firms.

    He has watched his mom’s life, and wants to earn more than factory wages.

    “It's a lot of work for little money,” he said.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
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    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




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  4. #3
    Meanwhile, our illustrious government spent U.S. taxpayer dollars to build roads and schools in Mexico.
    ================
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Meanwhile, our illustrious government spent U.S. taxpayer dollars to build roads and schools in Mexico.
    Yeah, and look what it bought:



    That's our future, in the race to the bottom that is "globalization".

  6. #5
    The guy is making 29k again, so good for him.

    The greedy unions.....there's got to be some middle ground between $1 an hour to $75k with free health insurance for life and 100% pension at age 50. The retired union workers here own multiple homes, buy brand new cars every couple of years, and work part time jobs just to fill up their days. That's too much for unskilled laborers.

    Which is why NAFTA came about.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The guy is making 29k again, so good for him.

    The greedy unions.....there's got to be some middle ground between $1 an hour to $75k with free health insurance for life and 100% pension at age 50. The retired union workers here own multiple homes, buy brand new cars every couple of years, and work part time jobs just to fill up their days. That's too much for unskilled laborers.

    Which is why NAFTA came about.
    My grandfather was very well educated and a small business owner in the Flint area but the union workers all made much more than him. My mom talked about how union workers always lived a very nice life.

    It is weird to me that people are so quick to cry about how much someone makes on Wall Street (often correctly) but those same people think it is totally legitimate for a union worker to make multiples what they would make in the open market.

    My dad worked in management in the trucking industry. The company he worked for is basically the only union trucking company left and they are perpetually on the verge of bankruptcy. Unions killed the golden goose. I remember when I was young unions always on strike. I have no sympathy for union sob stories.
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 02-19-2017 at 02:41 PM.

  8. #7
    Most of the high paying jobs with benefits that people lament about losing were mostly either union or government jobs. If those jobs do return to the US they will be low paying, highly automated (few worker) jobs. The rise and fall of the middle class has pretty much followed the rise and decline of unions.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Most of the high paying jobs with benefits that people lament about losing were mostly either union or government jobs. If those jobs do return to the US they will be low paying, highly automated (few worker) jobs. The rise and fall of the middle class has pretty much followed the rise and decline of unions.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Most of the high paying jobs with benefits that people lament about losing were mostly either union or government jobs. If those jobs do return to the US they will be low paying, highly automated (few worker) jobs. The rise and fall of the middle class has pretty much followed the rise and decline of unions.
    At the all time high,union membership was only 25% of the workers. But they made 30% more in wages alone. The rise and fall of the unions pretty much followed the rise and fall of the middle class. Parasites destroying their hosts.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    At the all time high,union membership was only 25% of the workers. But they made 30% more in wages alone. The rise and fall of the unions pretty much followed the rise and fall of the middle class. Parasites destroying their hosts.
    The social programs caused a burden on the local economy which create extra barriers in the market place for middle class jobs to be created. We had a large amounts of our workforce collecting unemployment and before that we were building houses that no one could buy with money that we did not have. This economic warfare against Russia is destroying our society, our values, and making people forget what made this country great.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Most of the high paying jobs with benefits that people lament about losing were mostly either union or government jobs. If those jobs do return to the US they will be low paying, highly automated (few worker) jobs. The rise and fall of the middle class has pretty much followed the rise and decline of unions.
    You're forgetting about all the high tech jobs that have been outsourced.
    ================
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  14. #12
    What these sort of stories never show you is the millions of people who benefited from the factory moving to Mexico and the US farms being able to sell to Mexico. I bet investors, the ordinary consumer and communities around them saw a noticeable improvements in their lives too from the cheaper auto part and food.

    This is sadly what would happen to communities that have been protected one way or another from competition. I was talking to my dad the other day about how my nursing job is hard, I work 12 hr days 3.5 days a week, my feet hurt all the time and I seem to be getting very difficult patients and then he told me that the nurses they hire in Saudi Arabia who come from the Philippines to work in their hospitals. They worked 10 hr shifts, 6 days a week and they take home less than half of my salary and on top of that they pay about $5000 to agents who get them their job. I heard this and just shut and thanked God that some powerful forces is preventing those same Filipinos from competing for my job. Cos I think I would start selling cars if I had to take a pay cut.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    What these sort of stories never show you is the millions of people who benefited from the factory moving to Mexico and the US farms being able to sell to Mexico. I bet investors, the ordinary consumer and communities around them saw a noticeable improvements in their lives too from the cheaper auto part and food.

    This is sadly what would happen to communities that have been protected one way or another from competition. I was talking to my dad the other day about how my nursing job is hard, I work 12 hr days 3.5 days a week, my feet hurt all the time and I seem to be getting very difficult patients and then he told me that the nurses they hire in Saudi Arabia who come from the Philippines to work in their hospitals. They worked 10 hr shifts, 6 days a week and they take home less than half of my salary and on top of that they pay about $5000 to agents who get them their job. I heard this and just shut and thanked God that some powerful forces is preventing those same Filipinos from competing for my job. Cos I think I would start selling cars if I had to take a pay cut.
    And how many cars do you think you would sell in an economy where burger flipping was replacing software development and manufacturing of most every kind, as a career?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    And how many cars do you think you would sell in an economy where burger flipping was replacing software development and manufacturing of most every kind, as a career?
    Well considering that the US has about 150 m people employed and only 3.5 m work in the fast food industry. I am not too worried about burger flipper replacing software developers. More people are going to be able to get cheaper cars and a few thousands factory workers would have to take a pay cut or find another job.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Well considering that the US has about 150 m people employed and only 3.5 m work in the fast food industry. I am not too worried about burger flipper replacing software developers.
    No more burger flippers are needed. Most of those jobs are already taken by illegal aliens.

    More people are going to be able to get cheaper cars and a few thousands factory workers would have to take a pay cut or find another job.
    It's not just factory workers who have been outsourced. You aren't keeping up. Equilibrium will be reached when U.S. citizens are living in lean-tos.

    You seem to not be reading and watching what is and has been said by the elitists. They say it straight out. The goal is to normalize the economic state of the cannon fodder across the globe.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    No more burger flippers are needed. Most of those jobs are already taken by illegal aliens.



    It's not just factory workers who have been outsourced. You aren't keeping up. Equilibrium will be reached when U.S. citizens are living in lean-tos.

    You seem to not be reading and watching what is and has been said by the elitists. They say it straight out. The goal is to normalize the economic state of the cannon fodder across the globe.
    I think most non learning impaired or mentally challenged Americans should be flipping burger(not talking about being a cook and flipping burgers some time) past age 20. For the level of education we have in this country, it is beneath them to hold that job past that age.

    Also I think this is what the free market most of us are calling for would bring. There is going to be an equilibrium shift with wages in the industries being currently protected by cheaper workers. I am not trilled about it but this is what we tell the liberal teachers associations and unions to deal with they try to protect their unnatural wages.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I think most non learning impaired or mentally challenged Americans should be flipping burger(not talking about being a cook and flipping burgers some time) past age 20. For the level of education we have in this country, it is beneath them to hold that job past that age.

    Also I think this is what the free market most of us are calling for would bring. There is going to be an equilibrium shift with wages in the industries being currently protected by cheaper workers. I am not trilled about it but this is what we tell the liberal teachers associations and unions to deal with they try to protect their unnatural wages.
    Well I dunno I am kind of with Rand Paul on this and that I think that democrat policies have set "maximum" wages and have caused lots of industries to get worse as a result. He talks about some teachers being such good teachers they should be teaching more people at once and getting paid more.

    That's where I think its kind of like going to a mom & pop shop, where the owner works there and has a passion for his job and makes a better burger then any I ever tasted. Then after a year or two, when the place gets really popular, it becomes a franchise and they open a bunch of locations and the cooks change and it never tastes the same.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Well I dunno I am kind of with Rand Paul on this and that I think that democrat policies have set "maximum" wages and have caused lots of industries to get worse as a result. He talks about some teachers being such good teachers they should be teaching more people at once and getting paid more.

    That's where I think its kind of like going to a mom & pop shop, where the owner works there and has a passion for his job and makes a better burger then any I ever tasted. Then after a year or two, when the place gets really popular, it becomes a franchise and they open a bunch of locations and the cooks change and it never tastes the same.
    I dunno about industries getting worse but some of the policies of the democrats and teacher unions have kept the such industries like teaching alive. Think of what would happen if one allowed the power of the free market and current technology to work its magic on teaching. It would be devastating to the profession. Most teaching would be gone and replaced with by audio lectures. The top 1% of teacher would record their best lectures on every topic imaginable and sell their tapes for huge bucks. The rest of the teachers would be forced to use these tape to lecture their pupil or students would just buy the tapes off the market and skip the schools.

    The workers left in the classrooms would be nothing more than babysitters who are there to make sure the students follow through with the audio lectures. This would destroy what is left of teachers but it would also drastically reduce the cost of getting an education. Technology will finally come for those jobs cos the teachers union and the dems can only fight the free market forces for so long.

    Some of the old nurses at the hospital tell me how many of the prep. courses used to study for the nursing boards used to be in live classrooms with teachers teaching students but now they come mainly in audio and online classes. The study guide I used was an 14 hr audio tape taken(read stolen) from the internet, saving me and countless others time, gas money and effort in the process. This is what the free market brings

  22. #19
    If you think keeping traditions alive is more important then giving people a good education. Right now we already pay way too much for people to receive horrible educations. There are people in nations that envy our wealth getting better educations.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    If you think keeping traditions alive is more important then giving people a good education. Right now we already pay way too much for people to receive horrible educations. There are people in nations that envy our wealth getting better educations.
    Not at all what I am saying, just countering your belief that the free market would bring some sort of an upgrade for teachers. Traditional jobs like teaching is going to be transformed by the free market and technology, all I am saying that Rand Paul thinking that teacher as a whole would benefit from this change is fantasy. It would wreck the profession and only a fraction of people calling themselves teacher today would be able to do that after the transformation. The rest would have to retool and find employment elsewhere.

    Btw, the US still has the best universities in the world, no other place even country even close.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Btw, the US still has the best universities in the world, no other place even country even close.
    You would think so, but most people I have ever met think they are wasting their degrees, they think they have some magical golden ticket and they aren't getting what they deserve. I think they aren't wasting their degrees, I think they paid a tremendous amount of money for something that they don't need. If stories like this weren't a dime a dozen I would agree with you, our universities are amazing, but for the trillions of dollars we spend on education its a shame.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You would think so, but most people I have ever met think they are wasting their degrees, they think they have some magical golden ticket and they aren't getting what they deserve. I think they aren't wasting their degrees, I think they paid a tremendous amount of money for something that they don't need. If stories like this weren't a dime a dozen I would agree with you, our universities are amazing, but for the trillions of dollars we spend on education its a shame.
    All the "education" in the world won't imbue common sense..

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    All the "education" in the world won't imbue common sense..
    If you give someone information, and give him all the information they want but don't teach them how to think then they will never have any.

  27. #24
    So we have a company that basically had a 30 to 1 savings in labor costs. Was that savings passed on to their customer?

    The next year — amid an accounting fraud scandal in which the SEC fined several top executives — Delphi filed for bankruptcy.
    The company was split off, and within several years, it declared bankruptcy amid an accounting scandal. Sounds like an example of vulture capitalism. Did any of the executives come from the brokerage that did the split? Lot of money to be made on splits and M&A, and a couple of years of bleeding the new company.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I dunno about industries getting worse but some of the policies of the democrats and teacher unions have kept the such industries like teaching alive. Think of what would happen if one allowed the power of the free market and current technology to work its magic on teaching. It would be devastating to the profession. Most teaching would be gone and replaced with by audio lectures. The top 1% of teacher would record their best lectures on every topic imaginable and sell their tapes for huge bucks. The rest of the teachers would be forced to use these tape to lecture their pupil or students would just buy the tapes off the market and skip the schools.

    The workers left in the classrooms would be nothing more than babysitters who are there to make sure the students follow through with the audio lectures. This would destroy what is left of teachers but it would also drastically reduce the cost of getting an education. Technology will finally come for those jobs cos the teachers union and the dems can only fight the free market forces for so long.

    Some of the old nurses at the hospital tell me how many of the prep. courses used to study for the nursing boards used to be in live classrooms with teachers teaching students but now they come mainly in audio and online classes. The study guide I used was an 14 hr audio tape taken(read stolen) from the internet, saving me and countless others time, gas money and effort in the process. This is what the free market brings
    I'm confused. Are you saying that less teachers is a bad thing?

    This whole thread is confusing to me. Are you guys saying businesses only locate where there's low wages? That capitalism will lower wages?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Btw, the US still has the best universities in the world, no other place even country even close.
    maybe at the post-graduate level and I am trying to be gratuitous.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    maybe at the post-graduate level and I am trying to be gratuitous.
    Why do you think this academic excellency starts at post grad? You do know that undergrad portion have access to most of instructors and equipment used for post grad education. I think people malign American colleges because students are sometimes made to take gender and religious studies.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I'm confused. Are you saying that less teachers is a bad thing?

    This whole thread is confusing to me. Are you guys saying businesses only locate where there's low wages? That capitalism will lower wages?
    Never said that. The OP is what happens when you take a one sided view of free trade while pretending you covered all sides of the debate.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Why do you think this academic excellency starts at post grad? You do know that undergrad portion have access to most of instructors and equipment used for post grad education. I think people malign American colleges because students are sometimes made to take gender and religious studies.
    You sound like somebody who never attended an institution of higher learning in this country.

  34. #30
    And of course, it's easy to forget about the EPA and how it causes job loss in the United States. For many industries, the EPA has made it necessary to buy equipment to scrub the air of volatile organic compounds. These machines are very expensive and add to the final cost of the product.

    Of course, it's not necessary to buy those machines where the EPA hasn't made it mandatory. So of course the jobs move out of the country.

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